Making up your own kata

[MJS]

Robert

Believe me I see your point, and i am in agreement.

However I have a question for you, I ran into my 1st sensei this weekend and saw him do a form I think he made up. The form has nice flow to it, possibilty of applications-etc. Now Sensei has been in the arts in over 30 years (BTW he is not in the habit of inventing kata). Should I learn this form as a way of rememberence of him? After all is this not hoe kata started? I not trying to flame anything just wondering
Todd

I still think that the point of this thread is being missed. There is nothing wrong with being creative, if thats something you want to do. It may be a requirement for BB to make up a kata. However, this person is having his students make up the kata, and that is whats being taught. I'm still waiting to hear whats wrong with the traditional TKD kata?

Now, for your question. I have a few questions for you.

1- Do you know for sure that your inst. made this kata up himself?

2- Is it something he does for a tourny or something that hes teaching at his school?

If its something that you truely want to do so you'll have a way to remember him, then go ahead. However, I'd keep it to yourself, as a "special gift" so to speak.

Mike

 

[The Kai]

1.) I strongly believe so. I see a lot a movements that are prefered by him (hand traps). But it could be a form I havent yet seen. Also when when of my guys asked he said the name of the form was "Combined Fist Form" - Highlighting the Yin/yang of the martial Arts. Which is and was one of sensei's favorite topics.

2.) The form was done at a tourny, yet I saw (granted it was one quick viewing) alot of stuff from class

 

[KyleShort]

Yet by making up your own Kata, your making a statement that you have learned and are practicing techniques that you have proven in a life and death street fight or actual hand to hand combat situation, not in a ring or tournament.

Those classical kata's that you learn are from actual proven fighting techniques.

I strongly resist this notion. Many kata are a series of movements meant to teach concepts & principles. From those movements you can derive techniques. That is not to say that some kata do not contain proven techniques...they do...but that is not a requirement for a kata to be a kata and in fact I would say that the majority of kata are not based on explicit techniques.

I also resist the notion that all kata only contain techniques that are battle proven by the creator of the kata...did Ed Parker prove every single technique that he created in a life or death battle? In fact, if the original kata contained only proven techniques, then creating a new kata that uses sets of those techniques in different orders would still be based on proven techniques.

Once last thought...what was proven for one may not apply for another. Someone may have proven the efficacy of a pinky strike in combat, but that does not mean that another would be able to effectively apply it themselves. That one person took as series of techniques that they proved in battle and wrapped them in a kata, does not make that kata battle effective for everyone.

Also, I am only refering to the patternized karate style solo kata. Japanese arts such as Jujutsu also have two person exchanges that are very different.

 

[RRouuselot]

............1)Once last thought...what was proven for one may not apply for another. Someone may have proven the efficacy of a pinky strike in combat, but that does not mean that another would be able to effectively apply it themselves. That one person took as series of techniques that they proved in battle and wrapped them in a kata, does not make that kata battle effective for everyone.

2)Also, I am only refering to the patternized karate style solo kata. Japanese arts such as Jujutsu also have two person exchanges that are very different.

1) Real techniques work on anyone/ or a moajority of the population regardless of size......if not then it is not a useful technique is it. I mean if it only works on dwarfs and blind old ladies then it won't be much good.
Let's face it, weak small people don't normally attack bigger stronger people, AND if they did you wouldn't really need any MA training to defeat them since they are weaker and smaller.........

2) No offense but I really wish peole would research karate kata before they attempt to discuss them. Actually the Karate kata can be practiced just as the jujutsu/judo/aikido exchanges.........

 

[RRouuselot]

For most of us (99.99%) making up your own kata is like saying “since I can drive, put gas in and change a tire on Ferrari then I can design one from the ground up.”

There are enough kata in karate now that it would take you several life times to understand them all thoroughly……better to understand a few and be able to use something from them than to add to your work load with something that will most likely be mediocre at best.


(if that fails just dial 1-800-ASK-KATA....they have all the answers) :ultracool


"What I do today is important because I am paying a day of my life for
it. What I accomplish must be worthwhile because the price is high."
-Anonymous

 

[ppko]

http://www.matsumuraorthodox.com/book.htm
Is there anything wrong with this Rob, I mean Hohan was the main authority on Kyusho (at least to my understanding), and I can't see you complaining much if Mr. Oyata made up his own kata both indivduals are qualified to do so. Not saying that I agree just wanted to see what your thoughts were with this.

 

[jmann06405]

Ultimately, this turns out to be a bad idea.

While I understand that creativity and the ability to improvise are large parts of the martial arts, the student needs a base to draw from before they can do that.

Chances are, if you are working with a 'hybrid style', or something that someone has thrown together to make some money teaching with, that you will come across this phenonemon frequently.

In styles that are 'pure', the reason that kata or sets are not made up by the students is that within that set of motion are a lot of application(depending on style/instructor) that only time and training can reveal.

While all kata are made up, some were done by folks who had a bit more experience in the arts via fighting, training, teaching, etc. Generally, if you ask someone with little experience to create a kata, you will end up with a very surface level, superficial set that might contain elements detrimental to the student.

I have made up kata, so I have a bit of experience in this area. In comparision to the sets that are taught to me, and then expounded upon, the ones I created were done with a limited set of knowledge, and reflected that limitation.

I come to learn, not to show what I know. I think you should stick to the program. If you are forced/required to make up your own kata...find a new program.

 

[shesulsa]

I was required to create my own weapon form. I certainly don't plan to teach it to anyone else, but it taught me the difficulty in creating a flowing form comprised of useful techniques. I learned my limitations in creating it and I have a better idea now where to proceed from here.

Just my .02

 

[ppko]

I was required to create my own weapon form. I certainly don't plan to teach it to anyone else, but it taught me the difficulty in creating a flowing form comprised of useful techniques. I learned my limitations in creating it and I have a better idea now where to proceed from here.

Just my .02

that was worth at least a $1

 

[RRouuselot]

http://www.matsumuraorthodox.com/book.htm
Is there anything wrong with this Rob, I mean Hohan was the main authority on Kyusho (at least to my understanding), and I can't see you complaining much if Mr. Oyata made up his own kata both indivduals are qualified to do so. Not saying that I agree just wanted to see what your thoughts were with this.

Hohan was main authority on kyusho??
No, that's incorrect. Maybe that's what "Georgies" propaganda machine has cooked up to help that one and single solitary meeting with Hohan that "Georgie" claims to have had sound better.


"one of Okinawa's greatest living karate masters"
Please......Kise Fuse has got to be one the biggest jokes in Okinawa these days. I think his nickname is Mr. "Dan Salesman". He probably has "one of the greatest egos in Okinawa" I will give him that.

From the same website:
In 1990, Grandmaster Kise was recognized by the Okinawan Prefectural Government and by a panel of scholars from Ryukyu University as the successor to Master Soken and as the head of Shorinryu Matsumura Orthodox karate.



This actually caused a LOT of commotion in Okinawa among many of the people that know Kise. Do not believe all the hype about him being recognized by the Okinawan Prefectural Government and by a panel of scholars from Ryukyu University…..it was purely political and through “connections” that he got them to recognize him.

You guys that have never been to Okinawa need to realize that not all Okinawans you see in those Karate mags are great or even good......some of them suck. I have seen several Okinawan "Masters" that are in those "rags" and have a whole slew of "worshiping" students and that play quite well to audiences outside Okinawa but in actual fact suck the big one. Three of those Okinawan "Masters" have been mentioned on this board often.
Sorry to bust some people's hero worship bubble but it's a fact.




As far as Mr. Oyata making up kata. He hasn't and I doubt he ever will.

 

[DeLamar.J]

There is a school in our area that makes up there own kata (rather the teacher has there students make them up) and this is how they are going to decide the kata that will go into there curriculum. To me this is an outrage just wanting your thoughts.

I think that would be great to bring out a students creativity. But as far as tests go, that kind of stuff should be left out.

 

[RRouuselot]

I think that would be great to bring out a students creativity. But as far as tests go, that kind of stuff should be left out.

I understand about students being "creative" but why should they be creative when they haven't mastered the basics of what they have been taught to any degree. Wouldn't demonstrating mastery of what they have been taught be far more useful of time and effort then demonstrating something they just “made up”???
I am all for free expression and creativeness but where it really counts.
If you want students to be creative then why not attack them (in a sort of controlled fashion) and see how “creative” they are in coming up with an instant response/defense using what they have been taught.

For me having students make up some flying ninja squirrel kata is not creative, it just reinforces their own bad habits.

 

[ppko]

Hohan was main authority on kyusho??
No, that's incorrect. Maybe that's what "Georgies" propaganda machine has cooked up to help that one and single solitary meeting with Hohan that "Georgie" claims to have had sound better.


"one of Okinawa's greatest living karate masters"
Please......Kise Fuse has got to be one the biggest jokes in Okinawa these days. I think his nickname is Mr. "Dan Salesman". He probably has "one of the greatest egos in Okinawa" I will give him that.

From the same website:
In 1990, Grandmaster Kise was recognized by the Okinawan Prefectural Government and by a panel of scholars from Ryukyu University as the successor to Master Soken and as the head of Shorinryu Matsumura Orthodox karate.



This actually caused a LOT of commotion in Okinawa among many of the people that know Kise. Do not believe all the hype about him being recognized by the Okinawan Prefectural Government and by a panel of scholars from Ryukyu University…..it was purely political and through “connections” that he got them to recognize him.

You guys that have never been to Okinawa need to realize that not all Okinawans you see in those Karate mags are great or even good......some of them suck. I have seen several Okinawan "Masters" that are in those "rags" and have a whole slew of "worshiping" students and that play quite well to audiences outside Okinawa but in actual fact suck the big one. Three of those Okinawan "Masters" have been mentioned on this board often.
Sorry to bust some people's hero worship bubble but it's a fact.




As far as Mr. Oyata making up kata. He hasn't and I doubt he ever will.

I did not here that from George but just from internet and different boards that I have been on. But I can't vouch for Mr. Kise as I do not know him. Nor can I vouch for Mr. Oyata, but from what I understand Oyata, and Soken areand were very much qualified to do so. Like I said before I do not condone it I am just trying to see what your thoughts would be with this. I am not trying to start a flame war just trying to get some more oppinions

 

[RRouuselot]

I did not here that from George but just from internet and different boards that I have been on. But I can't vouch for Mr. Kise as I do not know him. Nor can I vouch for Mr. Oyata, but from what I understand Oyata, and Soken areand were very much qualified to do so. Like I said before I do not condone it I am just trying to see what your thoughts would be with this. I am not trying to start a flame war just trying to get some more oppinions

I am highly skeptical of people’s websites, Internet Boards, etc. This is why I mentioned some of the famous “masters” mentioned on this board as being not as good as the propaganda that is put out by them or their students.

 

[RRouuselot]

My own personal opinion is that when students are asked to “make up” their own kata this just opens the door for them to “make up” their own style in the future.
This is just what we need, more bozos running around starting McDojo based on their NEW and IMPROVED “Hamster Style” based on the 5 elements of the Flying Ninja Squirrel, emphasizing color by numbers kyusho, the death touch based on the color of their attackers underwear and the time and date they were last changed.

 

[hammer]

This may be a little of the subject,
G- day, i am a kenpo student in sydney Australia, having a small club, i made up 4 weapons forms, tried and tested them, and now apart of the sysllbus that i am teaching, my reasons for doing so is once students were expose to tournaments it become a need additionly it has been my understanding that kenpo students dont learn weapons until brown belt, I am curious at what age \ rank should a student start learning weapons? Cheers

 

[Chronuss]

we're require to "make-up" our own forms starting at purple belt, requiring five techniques of the forty-two that a student has learned up to that point. this allows the student to have some creativity and also introduce them to the first stages of formulation in ways of maneuvering, body mechanics, and what exactly works for them. we're required to have a theme for the form, whether or not all the techniques are against a right punch, left punch, pushes, grabs, holds, locks, weapons, are all the attacks right sided, left sided, from the front, from the side, from flank, or from the rear.

 

[RRouuselot]

This may be a little of the subject,
G- day, i am a kenpo student in sydney Australia, having a small club, i made up 4 weapons forms, tried and tested them, and now apart of the sysllbus that i am teaching, my reasons for doing so is once students were expose to tournaments it become a need additionly it has been my understanding that kenpo students dont learn weapons until brown belt, I am curious at what age \ rank should a student start learning weapons? Cheers

How were they "tried and tested" ? Do you use all the techniques in the kata in actual fights? If so were thet fights against other weapons or against unarmed people?


As far as “testing one’s technique”…… Back in the day …..when my teacher was much younger it was not uncommon in Okinawa for people to go to other dojo and ask for a match either empty hand or with weapons…….mind you this was not really considered rude or bad since they asked for a match instead of throwing down a “challenge”……..often these matches ended up in serious injury sometimes requiring hospitalization.

 

[hammer]

Thank you for your reply, the forms were tried & tested in both armed & unarmed, with conderation given to form & funtion, additionly having them ascessed by respected seniors in various arts that are known for that particular weapon ,having them performed at major tournaments with great results, im sure you get the picture ,cheers

 

[RRouuselot]

Thank you for your reply, the forms were tried & tested in both armed & unarmed, with conderation given to form & funtion, additionly having them ascessed by respected seniors in various arts that are known for that particular weapon ,having them performed at major tournaments with great results, im sure you get the picture ,cheers

Sorry I guess I am a little confused or unclear about your answer. The forms were tested or the techniques from the forms were tested? You say: having them performed at major tournaments with great results…..
To me this is not “field testing” them, but merely showing them to a group of people.
Just a couple of more questions…..

1)Which weapons did you test?
2)Were they tested in real fights……by this I mean not just “working out” but was it a real fight like “if I don’t beat this guy I might die” kind of fight or just sparring? If it was in “real fights” what was the result of the other person….for example were they sent to the hospital or did they just die on the spot?
3)Who were the respected seniors?
4)What arts do these seniors teach?
5)How were they assessed? Did you fight and beat these "respected seniors"?

I hope I don’t sound rude by being critical of your claims but there have been more than a few individuals on this board and others that merely blow smoke up people backsides with bogus claims of being able to perform nothing less than miracles in the MA.