Making up your own kata

[pakua]

My son's class had to make up katas a while back, but I think it was just Sensei injecting a bit of a change into proceedings- a bit of fun. I doubt if they rewrote the book after the exercise!

 

[Sin]

To play with ideas is an ok thing but to make up a whole new offical kata for the school well thats kinda not cool, unless the Sensei wants to adopt it into the art. And that can't be an everyday thing the kata would have to be really good

 

[kenpo tiger]

Not me. I love doing form. There is ALWAYS something new to learn from it, and you can spend a lifetime perfecting it. Without form, it would just be fighting. Guys need form because it teaches us how to be graceful and flow with our techniques.

As far as making up our own, yes I have experimented with my own personal sets, wondering how to begin and what might come next. But I teach and practice official forms that were developed by more experienced Grandmasters than me. Your average student and black belt has nowhere near the expertise necessary to consider developing his/her own form. You want creativity? Learn to apply the techniques you already know. Additionally, most forms are based on principles hundreds or thousands of years old. Your average Instructor, teaching for even several decades, is simply not at that level.
One of the things that separates true form from mere technique sets is nuance-the little things that must be understood before a form is effective. If I set out to create a form, it may have nice big movements, but it would be lacking in the nuances that make it what it is. Just like a master painting. It is the nuances, the little details that give it life and character. This is what also separates true from phony masters. True masters understand and can explain these nuances. Phony masters cannot.
I've practiced form with GM Hae Man Park. He could easily spend 3 hours on a little technique-how to do it properly, what angle, where to contact, what it does etc. You just stand amazed at how little you really know.

About the Instructor who has his students work on their own forms. I have a theory about that. I think he is not close to his Instructor, either broke away or got cut. He never really learned how to do form aside from basic practice. As a result, he has his students make up form to cover up his own lack of knowlege. Much like an Instructor who makes up technique to cover up the fact he doesn't know basics.

Hey Mich - where you been?

I think I generalized a bit when stating that it's a guy thing. My instructor happens to enjoy doing kata - and he's a guy - and there are others in my school who do also. However, for purposes of discussion here, I was merely pointing out that the attitude that kata are useless does exist and is fairly common.

Also goes to your instructor's attitude about it and how you do it. I was told by an instructor that I'd never be any good at kata. He [I think] felt he was trying to motivate me somehow into proving him wrong (he was prone to that type of teaching method at times), but all that accomplished was blocking my ability to learn from him. This was in an art that was created by someone else - not a traditional one - based on a few others that the grandmaster had trained in. Those forms do not appear in any other martial art, to my knowledge, but they are practiced by the students of that grandmaster. Does that make them "wrong"? Not really. I will qualify that by saying that experimentation is strongly discouraged in that system.

If your instructor encourages you to put techs together in a mini-kata, as someone else pointed out - this is an exercise, and a good one. Makes you see how practical your techs really are - in kenpo, at least. I can't speak for the rest of you.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Much like an Instructor who makes up technique to cover up the fact he doesn't know basics.

Define basics. If you make up a technique that has a logical application, didn't you just pre-discover an idea before it was shown to you by Master So'n'so? Or did you just apply the basic info already provided?
Sean

 

[Bammx2]

slightly different question.....

I have seen this posted quite a bit:
"Kata's are based on actual fighting(life or death) techniques"

Just like a Wado-ryu Inst. I knew in the UK.....
He said:" if you master your kata's, you will be invincible in a street fight"

Who here has ever actually used a kata in a streetfight?!
I believe kata's are "individuals choice"...
Depending on how you train; i.e: The Wado-ryu Inst....
If you rely too heavily on them, they create muscle memory and NOT in a good way.
I had to know 12 for my Shotokan BB and 14 for my Shorinyu BB and I have never got any benefit in an actual confrontation(and I have had more than my share)
I'm doggin kata's. I don't teach them....but I have a wallet full of buisiness cards of people who do, just in case people don't like what I teach.
OORAA!

 

[MichiganTKD]

Making up techniques is exactly that-creating your own movements that have no logical basis other than the fact that you don't fully understand the basics accepted by your system. Case in point: My Instructor told me of a guy he met years ago who taught horseback stance punching up. When are you EVER going to do that? The guy did not understand true basics, and so made up his own technique to cover this up. His poor students had no idea.

 

[ppko]

slightly different question.....

I have seen this posted quite a bit:
"Kata's are based on actual fighting(life or death) techniques"

Just like a Wado-ryu Inst. I knew in the UK.....
He said:" if you master your kata's, you will be invincible in a street fight"

Who here has ever actually used a kata in a streetfight?!
I believe kata's are "individuals choice"...
Depending on how you train; i.e: The Wado-ryu Inst....
If you rely too heavily on them, they create muscle memory and NOT in a good way.
I had to know 12 for my Shotokan BB and 14 for my Shorinyu BB and I have never got any benefit in an actual confrontation(and I have had more than my share)
I'm doggin kata's. I don't teach them....but I have a wallet full of buisiness cards of people who do, just in case people don't like what I teach.
OORAA!

If you know how to correctly apply a kata than it is one of the most usefull training methods that you can practice. Unfortunatly most people do not and if you do not understand the kata than you are better off doing away with them if you are training for self-defense, well atleast until you run across that person that shows you the light.

 

[RRouuselot]

Here is another thing to consider.

I have met some people that don't know any martial art but can defend themselves/fight rather well. Their spirit is such that they just have good natural skills. Then their are guys I have seen that have trained in all sorts of arts for 20+ years that can't fight for squat basically because they have no spirit. I have seen guys that have trained a long time get handed their *** by guys that know nothing.
SO in the end it doesn't matter if you are studying the flavor of the month ultimate fighting art or doing "classical" arts. In the end you will do as your spirit dictates in a real situation. Period.

 

[Sin]

agreed

 

[ppko]

Here is another thing to consider.

I have met some people that don't know any martial art but can defend themselves/fight rather well. Their spirit is such that they just have good natural skills. Then their are guys I have seen that have trained in all sorts of arts for 20+ years that can't fight for squat basically because they have no spirit. I have seen guys that have trained a long time get handed their *** by guys that know nothing.
SO in the end it doesn't matter if you are studying the flavor of the month ultimate fighting art or doing "classical" arts. In the end you will do as your spirit dictates in a real situation. Period.

\
A very good post

 

[Shu2jack]

I don't see anything wrong with a black belt, or someone testing for a black belt rank, creating their own form.

I personally believe that a black belt has mastered the basics of his/her system. If this is the case, would it not make sense to create your own personal form based on your skill, preferences, ablility, style, etc. using what you have learned from your system to demostrate mastery of the basics?

 

[ppko]

I don't see anything wrong with a black belt, or someone testing for a black belt rank, creating their own form.

I personally believe that a black belt has mastered the basics of his/her system. If this is the case, would it not make sense to create your own personal form based on your skill, preferences, ablility, style, etc. using what you have learned from your system to demostrate mastery of the basics?

I am not sure you are seeing what this discussion is about please go back and read the first post

 

[sifu Adams]

After reading though I see alot of good point made. I have a lot of katas and still have a lot more to learn in my system. at 4th degree black belt I haven't stopped learning new and differnt katas from my instuctor. Making me say no you souldn't make up new katas. However, I have learnd a few things about other styles. Many styles don't have a lot of forms in their systems. this prevents them from keeping 1 or 2nd black belt in their systems. Many will make up forms to keep their black belts active. We also pull all our fighting tech from our katas. I was taught that when you do a kata you should be shadow boxing, putting the guy in front of you and laying him out. I spar everytime I do a Kata. As for the ones who don't like kata. I have found that they don't understand the kata's or the kata dose not support their theroy of fighting. Ex. TKD loves to kick you head off and they are good at it. However I have seen at tournament where a TKD Black belt done a kata with no kicking in it. I later learnd if was for strengh of the legs and not entended for fighting. If thats the case I understand why they would wont to only spar. going back to you question. I agree with most in saying a lower rank should not be makeing up new katas. Through history each master would add to the list of tech/kata to make there system better. so for a advance black belt or Master to inprove the system that would be ok

 

[Shu2jack]

I am not sure you are seeing what this discussion is about please go back and read the first post

I read the first post, but.....

I believe that creating your own form is wrong also. There is plenty to learn with the traditional forms in one's own system. Creating forms is why we have all of the gymnastics routines that you see at tournaments today.

...If thats the case then why wouldnt it be ok for a student to take their favorite techniques make a kata out of them and practice them? Just curious.

Even though I voted NO and believe you should perfect the kata of your chosen style; yet I have gone ahead and developed my own 'personal' kata based on my favorite techniques and those that have worked both in contest and in a self-defense situation.

This is strictly a 'personal' kata, which I keep to myself and practice on my own; I let no one see me practice my personal kata anymore than I would want someone to read my diary.

But I devised my own 'personal' kata only after I had been well versed in several traditional karate & Judo kata's

No, Creativity and original thinking should definately not be allowed, there is no place for that in the martial arts.

As far as making up our own, yes I have experimented with my own personal sets, wondering how to begin and what might come next. But I teach and practice official forms that were developed by more experienced Grandmasters than me. Your average student and black belt has nowhere near the expertise necessary to consider developing his/her own form. You want creativity? Learn to apply the techniques you already know. Additionally, most forms are based on principles hundreds or thousands of years old. Your average Instructor, teaching for even several decades, is simply not at that level.
One of the things that separates true form from mere technique sets is nuance-the little things that must be understood before a form is effective. If I set out to create a form, it may have nice big movements, but it would be lacking in the nuances that make it what it is. Just like a master painting. It is the nuances, the little details that give it life and character. This is what also separates true from phony masters. True masters understand and can explain these nuances. Phony masters cannot.
I've practiced form with GM Hae Man Park. He could easily spend 3 hours on a little technique-how to do it properly, what angle, where to contact, what it does etc. You just stand amazed at how little you really know.

Not just as creative dance, but also as dynamic meditation. Yet by making up your own Kata, your making a statement that you have learned and are practicing techniques that you have proven in a life and death street fight or actual hand to hand combat situation, not in a ring or tournament.

It seems, to me at least, that the conversation spilled a bit over into the realm if someone should ever create a form, much less a form for a system. I just offered my two cents. I apologize if it was not what you were looking for.

 

[ppko]

I read the first post, but.....



It seems, to me at least, that the conversation spilled a bit over into the realm if someone should ever create a form, much less a form for a system. I just offered my two cents. I apologize if it was not what you were looking for.

Just didn't understand where you were coming from all is forgivin

 

[Marginal]

For my purposes classical karate-style kata are counter productive. Not everyone has the same purpose as me though.

Nor does everyone have the same purpose as you. Some do kata as a creative dance, why are they wrong for doing so?

That's like saying that Tae Bo's just as good as MT because some people take MA for the exercise.

 

[Enson]

i don't see a problem with writing your own kata. martial arts should be self expression... like music. after awhile one wants to write their own song.

peace

 

[SMP]

At our school it is required for BB. But it sound silly to have students make them up for the corriculum

 

[RRouuselot]

i don't see a problem with writing your own kata. martial arts should be self expression... like music. after awhile one wants to write their own song.

peace

Actually no it is nothing like making up a song. I have yet to see someone defend themselves with a song......well maybe Julie Andrews in the "The Sound of Music".
Firstly, I have yet to see anything in the MA that has not been thought of by someone else. Which doesn't really mean it was good, just that someone has thought of it before.
Having students invent new kata is just plain stupid. They would be better spending their time fully understanding what kata they have been exposed to rather than try to pull one out of their backside. I truly think asking people to make up new kata is how we get all the 22 year old 25th dan Grandmasters.

I have studied the style I train in for over 25 years and can still learn things from the very first kata I was taught. Martial Arts are not like McDonalds where if your Happy Meal doesn't come in 2 minutes or less you get a free drink. It takes “nintai” (perseverance) to study MAs


There is a principle in learning MAs (as wel as other things) called Shu Ha Ri.

Here are some links worth reading:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShuHaRi

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=254

http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_jujitsu/pt_shuhari.html

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=222

http://judo1.net/ju01004.htm

 

[The Kai]

Robert

Believe me I see your point, and i am in agreement.

However I have a question for you, I ran into my 1st sensei this weekend and saw him do a form I think he made up. The form has nice flow to it, possibilty of applications-etc. Now Sensei has been in the arts in over 30 years (BTW he is not in the habit of inventing kata). Should I learn this form as a way of rememberence of him? After all is this not hoe kata started? I not trying to flame anything just wondering
Todd