Looking for some knowledge in Judo

[Shawn_Hoffman]

Can someone teach/tell me something about Judo?
It looks interesting; but I see that it focuses on a lot of grappling, throws/takedowns and may not have the sense of effectiveness against an actual armed assailant as other arts.
I don't really see much punching and kicking either.
Just what I am seeing, I know that I may be wrong.

While the knowledge in grappling and throws/takedowns are nice, I feel that it is also important to have punching/kicking, footwork and proper distancing in your system as well.
And that's just my preference.

Am I wrong about Judo?

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, this will take a while, you may want to settle in. I'm going to cover what Judo is, where it comes from, why it is considered a "go to" art when people start asking about self defence, what a martial art is, and why thinking things like "but it doesn't have striking and kicking" really isn't a big deal when things are understood properly. Ready? Okay!

Judo is the creation of Kano Jigoro, developed in the late 1800's from Kano Sensei's study of a range of classical (Koryu) Jujutsu systems, most notably Tenshin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu, with Fusen Ryu also being a big influence (honestly, I see a lot of Fusen in Judo's methods, with things like the Koshiki no Kata and Kime no Kata coming from Kito Ryu). Kano took his understanding of these traditional methods, developed ways of training them by paring back the range of methods to a categorisation of various groupings of techniques (individual throws, for instance divided into Te Waza [Hand Techniques], Ashi Waza [Leg Techniques] and Koshi Waza [Hip Techniques] etc), rather than the kata-driven method of the Koryu forms, where the basic mechanics would be learnt, then applied through a combative sequence, designed to instill strategies and tactical usage of the techniques, rather than just "how to do this throw". By focusing on the technical aspects of the throws instead of the overall strategies and tactics, there could be a greater focus on economical and efficient performance of the throws themselves, which would then be tested in a free-form training method, refered to as "Randori" (pretty literally: "Capture within Chaos"). This allows the student to apply their throws against a resisting opponent, and develop their own tactics to apply the throws by chaining them together, faking, and so on. It is said that a Judoka, with their tokui waza (favourite technique) will know every way of getting to that throw from any position, and from any angle, as well as knowing each and every defence against it.

Judo also gives us the modern belt ranking systems (Kyu/Dan system). Basically, Judo became very popular (the old story was that Judo, using slightly different rules to other systems, would consistently win inter-school competitions [an old holdover refered to as Taryu Jiai], basically by using rules that limited the other Ryu's methods. What is far more likely is that, due to it's limited repertoire, as opposed to a Koryu teaching and transmitting method, and it's emphasis on performance and competitive aspects, Judo saw itself being adopted in High Schools, as well as being popular around the nation). As Judo was so wide-spread, that as Kano travelled from town to town to teach, he wouldn't know the students (Koryu systems are typically small, and tightly knit, so outward displays of rank aren't necessary, everyone knows what level everyone else is, and the instructor certainly knows what level everyone else is as well), so he wouldn't know how experienced they were, or what they could take, in terms of techiniques. So he drew from the game of Go, which uses a Kyu/Dan ranking system, and developed the coloured belts so he could immediately see what amount of experience everyone had when he trained them.

In terms of techniques, it is primarily focused on throwing, with some ground work, limb controls, and chokes as well. The Goshinjutsu (self defence) portion of Judo does include some striking, the Kime no kata includes defence against long and short swords as well, so such things do exist there, they just aren't part of the competition side of things, so they can be glanced over in a number of cases.

Okay, now to why it's lauded as a good choice for self defence, that primarily comes down to it being a very solid training methodology, applied against resistance (in randori and competition). Add to that the relative simplicity of the technical curriculum means that the art can be applied very easily, without a lot of confusion (internally) getting in the way. This is important, and we'll come back to it. Finally, the basic rule that if you throw someone hard onto a hard surface (let's say concrete?), then they tend to not get back up again.

Now onto what a martial art really is, because this is important for the next part.

A martial art is a congruent philosophy expressed through combatively themed techniques and training methodologies. That philosophy could be physical, political, spiritual, cultural, or anything in between (remember, a philosophy is really just a collection of self-contained values and beliefs). And that philosophy, as I said, is expressed through training methods and techniques.

Now, if you come across a system that seems to only really focus on striking (boxing, muay thai, etc), or grappling (Judo, Aikido, BJJ etc), or even a particular weapon (Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu, Owari Kan Ryu Sojutsu, Ogasawara Ryu Kyudo etc), these are what are refered to as "specialist systems". In other words, they specialise in a single, or limited approach, chosing to become superior in that area rather than spread themselves across a more far-reaching scope. The other approach, of course, is to be a "generalist system", which does cover a wider variety of ranges (striking, grappling, ground, weapon defence and use, etc), giving a wider area that the practitioner is comfortable in, while never being as good in a single area as the specialist is.

These days, people seem to not understand what this philosophy actually means. Ideally, the philosophy should provide all the answers, whether it is a specialist system or a generalist system. And that seems to confuse people, especially where specialist systems are concerned. There's a big trend out there to want to cover all the bases, so people try to look for disparate specialist systems that are the "best" in each of their areas, even though that idea actually goes against the teachings of that type of system. Basically, a big part of training in a specialist system is that you are training to be able to apply the approach of that system in all circumstances, in other words, if it's a grappling/throwing system, then you should always be moving into a position where you can apply those grappling/throwing skills. Adding another specialist system is like running two computer programs at the same time, one saying you should open every window, the other saying you should close every window. Essentially, if you have a training methodology that says you should always grapple, and then you also train a specialist striking system that says you should always hit, when faced with a situation, which one do you follow? You can't always strike and always grapple, so one of them has to be ignored. And what that means is that the time spent training it is rather wasted, in all honesty.

Basically, what happens in a high-stress situation (such as an assault) is that your conscious mind basically shuts down, leaving your unconsious in charge (which is where all your survival skills and traits live). And the unconscious mind will always choose the best of any two options presented. Basically, it will look at what you unconsciously believe to be the most powerful, and go with that. Which means that none of the training of the system not classed as "more powerful" is basically ignored. And if the two conflicting systems are both seen as being equal (typically that the unconscious doesn't actually class either of them as sufficiently powerful), then you get an internal logjam (the confusion intimated earlier), resulting in nothing coming out. Really not a good situation.

For the record, a generalist system (such as the Ninjutsu organisations, certain modern and older Jujutsu or jujutsu-related systems, many Chinese systems, and more) most typically seeks to control things to move the opponent (say, a specialist) out of the area they want to be in, and that is how a generalist system works. It is not a collection of different specialist systems, as that is counter-productive to the way the specialist systems actually work. You simply cannot take two contrary systems and think they make a whole, as they both are already. Here's a food analogy: Creating a gourmet meal by mixing different high-end dishes in a single bowl doesn't make a great meal, it makes a rather bad experience. Stick with one dish in it's intended form, it tastes a lot better (a generalist system is more like a Yum Cha meal, or buffet, rather than a full collection of meals put together).

Hope that helped a bit.

 

[Shawn_Hoffman]

Chris,

You truly are a gentleman and a scholar! Thank you very much for all of that, I have learned a lot more about Judo.
I am thinking that perhaps maybe a specialist system while cross-training in some other fields might help me better?
I do like the Judo throws, hip tosses, sweeps and some of the other techniques. I also like a lot of the Jujutsu locks and quick "to-the-point" application of techniques that i've seen in some of the videos.
And yet, I still would like to have some skill in the application of punching, kicking, elbows and other ways of striking.
Weapons defense, I also feel would be important in a lot of situations against the most realistic common day threats such as a knife, a crowbar, a hammer, or a stick, etc.. Maybe even a gun if the situation seems realistically able to be escaped.

I looked at some Aikido videos and I don't feel that it would be something for me, mostly because I feel more comfortable in a quicker application of techniques. What I see in Aikido is a lot of circular motion that takes more time and energy to apply (I could be wrong?).
And I don't personally favor the type of outfits or uniforms that they wear in a lot of these Koryu arts. Perhaps that's not as important, but it seems that those schools generally are geared towards the Samurai and old Japanese setting.
While I feel that the old Koryu systems can be applied in a modern day sense, I do not feel they are geared towards the modern day scenario. Again, I could also be wrong about that too.

I looked at Ninjutsu a bit and thought maybe that would be nice; but I am feeling a bit leary because of the '80s "Ninja Craze" that was going on. When most people think "Ninja" they think of something out of a movie or some kind of fantasy. That's really not what i'm trying to pursue; but I don't have much knowledge about Ninjutsu.
I have done a little bit of research on it just by typing it in google and have found only a few organizations (Genbukan, Bujinkan and Jinenkan to be exact). Those seem to be okay, but I have also found other schools that only say "Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu" that wear the Ninja masks and all of that, with some absurd techniques.
I also understand that Ninjutsu isn't so much a "specialist art" but is more general with a set of skills. I'm not sure what ninja stars or a rope with a blade or object attached to it will do much in regards to helping me in a real-life situation; but anyways.

I looked at Krav Maga and that is a bit far from what i'm looking for, mostly because it seems to be very commercialized and like something out of an aerobics class.
It also seems to be something that isn't necessarily a "specialist" art, but is very general.

I looked at Kajukenbo and that looks pretty awesome. Some of the schools that I found on youtube look a lot like Tae Kwon Do which is far from what i'm interested in, no offense to anybody.

I also looked at Kenpo, and that does look pretty amazing as well, but i've heard that finding an actual good Kenpo school down in this area is a challenge in it's own. I'm not sure how accurate that information is, but only searching will actually give me the right answers.

As far as cross-training, i've been thinking about studying on a specialist art and sticking with that for awhile and then cross-training in other specialist arts such as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, and weapons arts.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris,

You truly are a gentleman and a scholar! Thank you very much for all of that, I have learned a lot more about Judo.

Not a problem. Er, this will probably be fairly long as well, so you know....

I am thinking that perhaps maybe a specialist system while cross-training in some other fields might help me better?

It really comes down to how it's approached. There are quite a few people here who are huge supporters of cross-training, as you may have realised, I'm not one of them. But it can be done well, and I'll look after that at the end here.

I do like the Judo throws, hip tosses, sweeps and some of the other techniques. I also like a lot of the Jujutsu locks and quick "to-the-point" application of techniques that i've seen in some of the videos.
And yet, I still would like to have some skill in the application of punching, kicking, elbows and other ways of striking.
Weapons defense, I also feel would be important in a lot of situations against the most realistic common day threats such as a knife, a crowbar, a hammer, or a stick, etc.. Maybe even a gun if the situation seems realistically able to be escaped.

Hmm, you appear to be making the common misconception that the techniques are what works. They're not. Really, all the techniques are is the expression of the arts philosophy. They are not the art itself. But they are a way to get to the art.

What the art teaches is a method of movement, and the techniques are an expression of that. This is why simply tacking on the kicks of TKD with the throws of Judo doesn't work, the methods of movement are competely different.

I looked at some Aikido videos and I don't feel that it would be something for me, mostly because I feel more comfortable in a quicker application of techniques. What I see in Aikido is a lot of circular motion that takes more time and energy to apply (I could be wrong?).

Yeah, there's a lot of circular movement in Aikido, but I really wouldn't say it takes longer, or that it takes more any more energy. In fact, that's about as far from the way Aikido works as you can get. You may want to check out the "Bullying Instructor" thread for a great example of the way Aikido can work.

And I don't personally favor the type of outfits or uniforms that they wear in a lot of these Koryu arts. Perhaps that's not as important, but it seems that those schools generally are geared towards the Samurai and old Japanese setting.
While I feel that the old Koryu systems can be applied in a modern day sense, I do not feel they are geared towards the modern day scenario. Again, I could also be wrong about that too.

Yep, Koryu, as they are, are not really about self defence in the slightest. But the mindset of them is much closer to actual combat than most modern systems. They really aren't designed to be used (physically) in a modern setting, though. This is why I don't think Koryu is going to interest you in the slightest. Personally, I love it. But that's me.

I looked at Ninjutsu a bit and thought maybe that would be nice; but I am feeling a bit leary because of the '80s "Ninja Craze" that was going on. When most people think "Ninja" they think of something out of a movie or some kind of fantasy. That's really not what i'm trying to pursue; but I don't have much knowledge about Ninjutsu.
I have done a little bit of research on it just by typing it in google and have found only a few organizations (Genbukan, Bujinkan and Jinenkan to be exact). Those seem to be okay, but I have also found other schools that only say "Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu" that wear the Ninja masks and all of that, with some absurd techniques.

Yep, very true. If not part of the Big Three, as it were, or a legit offshoot from one, steer clear!

I also understand that Ninjutsu isn't so much a "specialist art" but is more general with a set of skills. I'm not sure what ninja stars or a rope with a blade or object attached to it will do much in regards to helping me in a real-life situation; but anyways.

The Ninjutsu-related organisations actually teach a range of related classical systems, and each have their own way of getting the skills and knowledge across. Being so broad-ranging, there is a lot of material that may not be immediately "usable", at least in the way they are presented, but there are reasons for everything to be taught. For example swordsmanship is fantastic for learning distancing, timing, angling, and targeting to a high level, as well as adding a higher stress-level to the experience, which assists in developing the correct and essential mindset to get through a conflict situation. Shuriken aid as a tactical expression (distract in order to escape), as well as other reasons, composite weapons such as Kyoketsu Shoge (a double-bladed knife with a long rope and ring attached to it) help develop hand-eye co-ordination, as well as independant control of both hands at the same time. What is on the surface isn't always the truth as to why it's there....

I looked at Krav Maga and that is a bit far from what i'm looking for, mostly because it seems to be very commercialized and like something out of an aerobics class.
It also seems to be something that isn't necessarily a "specialist" art, but is very general.

Yep, Krav Maga is a modern generalist system, initially developed for use by the Israeli Military, with it's big advantage being it's methods of high-intensity drilling, similar to RBSD (Reality Based Self Defence) systems.

I looked at Kajukenbo and that looks pretty awesome. Some of the schools that I found on youtube look a lot like Tae Kwon Do which is far from what i'm interested in, no offense to anybody.

I also looked at Kenpo, and that does look pretty amazing as well, but i've heard that finding an actual good Kenpo school down in this area is a challenge in it's own. I'm not sure how accurate that information is, but only searching will actually give me the right answers.

Kajukenbo is a composite system, often seen as a branch of Kenpo. Due to the range of systems used in it's creation, the way it is expressed by different groups can vary wildly. One is not indicative of all.

As far as cross-training, i've been thinking about studying on a specialist art and sticking with that for awhile and then cross-training in other specialist arts such as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, and weapons arts.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Okay, cross-training is not advised until quite a fair degree of experience, skill, and understanding in the initial system is developed. Otherwise all you do is add to the amount of time it takes to get good at either system you're studying. What is the best approach is to look to other systems that deal with a different environment to your established system, and use the newly gained knowledge of the new environment (say, weapon defence from an FMA system) to apply your initial art in that new area. Simply trying to tack one onto another leads to a lack in at least one, if not both.

 

[lklawson]

Shawn,

It sounds like you've got to define your needs first. A lot of it sounds like you're most interested in modern self defense.

The truth of the matter is (as a matter of personal preference) I kinda hate most incarnations of RBSD systems ("Reality Based Self Defense"). They tend, in my experience, to be too abbreviated and often (nay, usually) lack what I consider effective methods of instilling the ability to actually apply what is being taught to an opponent who is actually trying his best to hurt/dominate you while, at the same time, preventing you from hurting/dominating him (let's call it "functionalize").

Again, to be fair, many martial arts systems lack the latter (in my not so humble opinion).

Judo has developed over the course of more than a century a very effective method of developing those skills based in its randori methods. Depending on who you talk to there are as many as 4 tiered elements to the instruction which teach you to functionalize those skills:

1. basic instruction
2. uchi komi - repetative "fitting in" partner practice wherein the partner makes sure you get the proper mechanics for the throw without "cheating you" by giving it to you when you don't have it
3. randori - general "sparring" ranging in partner resistance from "hey, we're not going too hard, if you hit the technique right, I'm not going to fight it too much" all the way up to fairly hard (near competitive) resistance.
4. shiai - full on competition

I'm abbreviating a lot, of course. That aside, when you look at how judo, particularly early judo, was structured, you can see how these principles can be imported into other martial arts to functionalize those skills as well. In fact, you may see that a lot of arts which are considered "really effective" modern expressions already have something like this tiered structure leading to competition (such as Boxing, Brazilian Ju Jitsu, and Muay Thai).

Because you seem to be focused on modern self defense, another thing to consider modern weapons. Not just how to defend against knives, sticks, and guns, but how to effectively use them in self defense.

Now here's where things get even more contradictory. In fighting almost always the KISS principle applies. The fewer techniques and strategies used, kept to an elementary level with a high level of training, development and effectiveness, focusing on those techniques which are "easiest to pull off" (often called "high percentage techniques") are "best" for fighting.

...but it's boring, lacks depth and typically is insufficient to hold a practitioners interest for any true length of time. In other words, people usually get bored with RBSD, Krav Maga, etc. But the more complex (often ranging to esoteric) stuff is more interesting.

To have an art which holds practitioners interest throughout the years it must be able to impart and functionalize basic, high percentage, self defense skills as well as offer enough continuing sophistication to keep the practitioner interested.

Well, there's a lot more that I need to touch on but don't have time right now. Maybe I'll be able to come pick this thread up again later.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[oaktree]

Can someone teach/tell me something about Judo?
It looks interesting; but I see that it focuses on a lot of grappling, throws/takedowns and may not have the sense of effectiveness against an actual armed assailant as other arts.
I don't really see much punching and kicking either.
Just what I am seeing, I know that I may be wrong.

While the knowledge in grappling and throws/takedowns are nice, I feel that it is also important to have punching/kicking, footwork and proper distancing in your system as well.
And that's just my preference.

Am I wrong about Judo?

Hi Shawn what are you looking for exactly in Judo?
Yes Judo does focus alot on grappling,throwing and take downs it also focuses on atemi waza,holds,joint locks, modern self defense, and even physical conditioning.
Judo is very effective against armed assailant here is a clip of the Kodokan Goshinjutsu against weapons:

Even way back then when Kano was alive you can see it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1fKknTplSo&feature=related
See they even used strikes.

If you want to know how effective Judo is do some randori with a Judoka.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kodokan Judo: The Essential Guide to Judo by Its Founder Jigoro Kano - Jigoro Kano

Mind Over Muscle: Writings from the Founder of Judo - Jigoro Kano

 

[Manny]

This post has been very good to me, I've thinking in crosstraining in judo (or aikido), I am 2nd degree black belt in TKD who crostrained in kenpo karate and I really apreciate the things I learned there, I am martial arts nut always seeking for enrichment (martial art speaking) and I've always consider judo a very nice self defense method, in fact in close quartesr a judoka can be very efective defending him/her self.

Reading the first response of Mr. Parker was very enlightment, Mr. parker it seems to me you are a well balanced man and a knowledge man, thank you for your points. I must say I fellt a little confusion about your toughts about crosstraining and would like to reopen this tpopic if you allow me.

When I was presed to defend myself inside the kenpo karate studio I always reverted (wihtout thinking) to my TKD set mode and I always defend myself very good, my kenpo sensei told me my moves were good and I defenden myself succesfully (againts 3 asailanst inside the dojo) but that I did not aply the kenpo techs we arleady saw in the class. It was very clear to me that in a hurry my mind and body will react the way I was taught inside my main martial art (TKD).

The above mentioned leaves me with some doubts, how dificult could be to learn the judo techs and use them in a real situation? Will be worth to enrole in a judo dojo and learn it for a long period of time and could be this make judo second nature to me in a close quarters scenario where grabing,trowing,sweeping or choking it's best that kick or punch?

Sorry if I took this post to make my questions?

Thank you every body who want to share.

Manny

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Manny,

Let's see if I can explain simply here.

In a high stress, high adrenaline situation like a self defence situation, the higher functions of your brain will shut down, including your conscious decision-making ability, your ability to form sentences, and so on. This is mainly because it is slower than your unconscious mind, which is where your natural survival instincts lie.

When training, you are attempting to instruct that unconscious, survival orientate part of yourself that you are giving it something powerful in order to allow you to survive. If you put in two different "strong" methods which conflict with each other (not even a lot, but if there is any conflict or contradiction between them), then the unconscious will do one of two things. It will either chose the one that it feels is the more powerful (typically the one you have focused more on and spent more time training, although that is not universal. It may be the one that looks most like the moves you see in movies, as by watching the movies you have again informed your unconscious as to what is "powerful"....), or it will shut down as it doesn't believe that either are truly powerful (as if one was, you wouldn't need the other).

So when you are put under pressure in your Kenpo class, and TKD was coming out, I'm not surprised at all. It's your main art, and one that you have taught yourself is powerful, and can generate success for you. And honestly, even if you did come out with Kenpo techniques, I'd be willing to bet that they'd be "TKD-flavoured".

When it comes to training something like Judo, look to it to understand a different environment (close-quarters grappling, including throws and chokes, as well as the ground), but expect that your application of it will be basically based on your TKD, no matter how much you focus on Judo. That will be expressed through position of your feet, use of your hips, and more (there are similarities between it and TKD there, so it can work quite well, but don't expect to be able to just "switch" mid-fight between styles that way, there's a reason the early UFC competitions, once people started to add different environments and ranges to their training didn't really switch from boxing to BJJ mid-fight, they just employed MMA for the entire match. It's a congruent system all of it's own).

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

These days, people seem to not understand what this philosophy actually means. Ideally, the philosophy should provide all the answers, whether it is a specialist system or a generalist system. And that seems to confuse people, especially where specialist systems are concerned. There's a big trend out there to want to cover all the bases, so people try to look for disparate specialist systems that are the "best" in each of their areas, even though that idea actually goes against the teachings of that type of system. Basically, a big part of training in a specialist system is that you are training to be able to apply the approach of that system in all circumstances, in other words, if it's a grappling/throwing system, then you should always be moving into a position where you can apply those grappling/throwing skills. Adding another specialist system is like running two computer programs at the same time, one saying you should open every window, the other saying you should close every window. Essentially, if you have a training methodology that says you should always grapple, and then you also train a specialist striking system that says you should always hit, when faced with a situation, which one do you follow? You can't always strike and always grapple, so one of them has to be ignored. And what that means is that the time spent training it is rather wasted, in all honesty.

Basically, what happens in a high-stress situation (such as an assault) is that your conscious mind basically shuts down, leaving your unconsious in charge (which is where all your survival skills and traits live). And the unconscious mind will always choose the best of any two options presented. Basically, it will look at what you unconsciously believe to be the most powerful, and go with that. Which means that none of the training of the system not classed as "more powerful" is basically ignored. And if the two conflicting systems are both seen as being equal (typically that the unconscious doesn't actually class either of them as sufficiently powerful), then you get an internal logjam (the confusion intimated earlier), resulting in nothing coming out. Really not a good situation.

For the record, a generalist system (such as the Ninjutsu organisations, certain modern and older Jujutsu or jujutsu-related systems, many Chinese systems, and more) most typically seeks to control things to move the opponent (say, a specialist) out of the area they want to be in, and that is how a generalist system works. It is not a collection of different specialist systems, as that is counter-productive to the way the specialist systems actually work. You simply cannot take two contrary systems and think they make a whole, as they both are already. Here's a food analogy: Creating a gourmet meal by mixing different high-end dishes in a single bowl doesn't make a great meal, it makes a rather bad experience. Stick with one dish in it's intended form, it tastes a lot better (a generalist system is more like a Yum Cha meal, or buffet, rather than a full collection of meals put together).

Hope that helped a bit.

No I disagree here.
This fits into your own personal martial arts world that is fine.
But I do not agree with your analogy at all. It is not like running two seperate computer operating systems at the same time.
There are different ranges that things happen in, and some arts ike you mentioned specialize in certain ranges of combat. There is absolutely no opposition in training Judo to handle the takedown/throw/clinch range, and a stand up striking art for the the striking range.
I think if you have any issues it would be when you have arts that handle multiple ranges, and the spot the arts overlap into the same range, but use different philosophies in how to handle that range.
I also completely disagree with your assessment of the human mind shutting down in high stress situations, I believe that for laymen this is true, but that is a big reason we train in the martial arts so that we do not have this happen. I have recently had some high stress situations happen and my mind did not shut down, I was clear thinking, able to function as I wanted and use small motor skills without issue.
I would say consider it a multi course meal.
the appetizer could be associated with striking range
the salad or soup could be associated with the clinch range
the main course could be associated with the takedown/throw range
the desert could be associated with the grappling range.
feel free to add more in there... out of range, projectile range, weapons range... whatever you choose.

If a person finds themself in a range that is not working for them, they should move to another range if they cant remove themselves from the confrontation completely.

my general thought on the systems that focus on all ranges are that they tend to provide a more complete picture, tend to include more concepts and principles about combat in general. The specialized systems that focus solely on one range usually seem to have much more precise drills and training methodologies to work that specific range.
When combined together through crosstraining seem to provide the best results that I have seen across the board bar nothing.

 

[Manny]

Hi Manny,

Let's see if I can explain simply here.

In a high stress, high adrenaline situation like a self defence situation, the higher functions of your brain will shut down, including your conscious decision-making ability, your ability to form sentences, and so on. This is mainly because it is slower than your unconscious mind, which is where your natural survival instincts lie.

I got it. It's something like tunnel vision, loose hearing and loosing the frame of time.

[/QUOTE]When training, you are attempting to instruct that unconscious, survival orientate part of yourself that you are giving it something powerful in order to allow you to survive. If you put in two different "strong" methods which conflict with each other (not even a lot, but if there is any conflict or contradiction between them), then the unconscious will do one of two things. It will either chose the one that it feels is the more powerful (typically the one you have focused more on and spent more time training, although that is not universal. It may be the one that looks most like the moves you see in movies, as by watching the movies you have again informed your unconscious as to what is "powerful"....), or it will shut down as it doesn't believe that either are truly powerful (as if one was, you wouldn't need the other).[/QUOTE]

Shut down can be a scary thing.

[/QUOTE]So when you are put under pressure in your Kenpo class, and TKD was coming out, I'm not surprised at all. It's your main art, and one that you have taught yourself is powerful, and can generate success for you. And honestly, even if you did come out with Kenpo techniques, I'd be willing to bet that they'd be "TKD-flavoured".[/QUOTE]

Completly true, my kenpo techs had TKD-Flavor.

[/QUOTE]When it comes to training something like Judo, look to it to understand a different environment (close-quarters grappling, including throws and chokes, as well as the ground), but expect that your application of it will be basically based on your TKD, no matter how much you focus on Judo. That will be expressed through position of your feet, use of your hips, and more (there are similarities between it and TKD there, so it can work quite well, but don't expect to be able to just "switch" mid-fight between styles that way, there's a reason the early UFC competitions, once people started to add different environments and ranges to their training didn't really switch from boxing to BJJ mid-fight, they just employed MMA for the entire match. It's a congruent system all of it's own).[/QUOTE]

So you think do crosstraining in judo is a good thing afther all? I haven't learned something new but the poomsae, sometimes I feel I don't go anywhere.

Manny

 

[Chris Parker]

No I disagree here.
This fits into your own personal martial arts world that is fine.
But I do not agree with your analogy at all. It is not like running two seperate computer operating systems at the same time.

I'll see if I can explain a little more clearly, then. I'm not looking at things for "my martial arts world" here, I'm looking at exactly what martial arts are, how they teach, and what they teach, as well as understanding the psychological and physiological realities. Believe me, if I was designing the way this works, it'd be rather different....

There are different ranges that things happen in, and some arts ike you mentioned specialize in certain ranges of combat. There is absolutely no opposition in training Judo to handle the takedown/throw/clinch range, and a stand up striking art for the the striking range.

The issue is that you seem to be looking at martial arts as a collection of techinques, which is not what they are. The techniques are an expression of the lessons and philosophy of the art, and if you train in an art that dictates that you should always close and grapple, then training in another art that says you should always get distance and kick will contradict the training of the first art. It doesn't mean you won't be able to do the techniques, but it does mean that you have given yourself contradictory strategies, and that means that when it comes down to it, and your unconscious takes over, it's not sure what strategy to follow, and will either freeze with no ability to choose, or render half the training redundant.

If you clinch with a boxer, they will want to disengage, get to punching range and overpower with hand strikes. If you face them in kicking range, they want to move in and punch. That is what a specialist system is, not something to be tacked onto other specialist systems.

I think if you have any issues it would be when you have arts that handle multiple ranges, and the spot the arts overlap into the same range, but use different philosophies in how to handle that range.

If they use different philosophies, then it's not a genuine generalist system, it's an amalgm of specialist systems. That's exactly the issue I'm talking about here.

I also completely disagree with your assessment of the human mind shutting down in high stress situations, I believe that for laymen this is true, but that is a big reason we train in the martial arts so that we do not have this happen. I have recently had some high stress situations happen and my mind did not shut down, I was clear thinking, able to function as I wanted and use small motor skills without issue.

You may well disagree with it, but it's also the reality. It's a basic effect of adrenaline (along with tunnelling vision, hearing changing, heartrate increasing, and more). And, believe it or not, it's a good thing. It's kept us alive for hundreds of thousands of years as a species. Honestly, if you didn't have your higher brain functions shut down, at least to a degree, then it wasn't something that your unconsious felt was a real high stress/high adrenaline survival situation.

Training can help acclimatise you to the effects of adrenaline, and minimise the less-favourable aspects, but it in no way stops it from happening. If it does, frankly, you're a sociopath, and not someone I would have learning martial arts (that, by the way, is a generic "you", not refering to yourself in particular).

I would say consider it a multi course meal.
the appetizer could be associated with striking range
the salad or soup could be associated with the clinch range
the main course could be associated with the takedown/throw range
the desert could be associated with the grappling range.
feel free to add more in there... out of range, projectile range, weapons range... whatever you choose.

You know, that makes no sense to me whatsoever. I have no idea what the metaphor is meant to describe....

If a person finds themself in a range that is not working for them, they should move to another range if they cant remove themselves from the confrontation completely.

Which tells me you prefer a generalist system. A specialist system would always dictate to move to it's prefered range, regardless of where you start, whereas a generalist system will prefer to move between them for maximum advantage.

my general thought on the systems that focus on all ranges are that they tend to provide a more complete picture, tend to include more concepts and principles about combat in general. The specialized systems that focus solely on one range usually seem to have much more precise drills and training methodologies to work that specific range.

Both specialist and generalist are a complete picture. How well each work depends on who is applying them, and how they've been trained. But again, I get the feeling that you're only looking at the technical side of things, rather than why a certain system may be limited to a single, or few range of skills/ranges.

When combined together through crosstraining seem to provide the best results that I have seen across the board bar nothing.

That depends on how the cross-training is done. Adding understanding to an established methodology, great. Different concepts, ideals, approaches, philosophies from the get-go, not so good.

I got it. It's something like tunnel vision, loose hearing and loosing the frame of time.

When training, you are attempting to instruct that unconscious, survival orientate part of yourself that you are giving it something powerful in order to allow you to survive. If you put in two different "strong" methods which conflict with each other (not even a lot, but if there is any conflict or contradiction between them), then the unconscious will do one of two things. It will either chose the one that it feels is the more powerful (typically the one you have focused more on and spent more time training, although that is not universal. It may be the one that looks most like the moves you see in movies, as by watching the movies you have again informed your unconscious as to what is "powerful"....), or it will shut down as it doesn't believe that either are truly powerful (as if one was, you wouldn't need the other).

Shut down can be a scary thing.

So when you are put under pressure in your Kenpo class, and TKD was coming out, I'm not surprised at all. It's your main art, and one that you have taught yourself is powerful, and can generate success for you. And honestly, even if you did come out with Kenpo techniques, I'd be willing to bet that they'd be "TKD-flavoured".

Completly true, my kenpo techs had TKD-Flavor.

When it comes to training something like Judo, look to it to understand a different environment (close-quarters grappling, including throws and chokes, as well as the ground), but expect that your application of it will be basically based on your TKD, no matter how much you focus on Judo. That will be expressed through position of your feet, use of your hips, and more (there are similarities between it and TKD there, so it can work quite well, but don't expect to be able to just "switch" mid-fight between styles that way, there's a reason the early UFC competitions, once people started to add different environments and ranges to their training didn't really switch from boxing to BJJ mid-fight, they just employed MMA for the entire match. It's a congruent system all of it's own).

So you think do crosstraining in judo is a good thing afther all? I haven't learned something new but the poomsae, sometimes I feel I don't go anywhere.

Manny

Cross-training in Judo can be a very good thing, if you are looking to get a deeper understanding of the way a different environment works, and an understanding of things like the mechanics of throws and so on. But realise that the TKD will still provide the framework for everything you do.

 

[Manny]

Thank you Chris, your way of thinking is a good one, I agree with you as a kicker I will always seek the long-mid range in a physical confrontation or try to acomodate on this range at least. However, I think it's wise to know how to deal with close combat quarters, I mean up on your face range and some kind of grapling game will be nice to have.

In a real scenario I will always put distance (if I can) and this can give precius time to reanalize the situation and avoiding it if possible.

The brain is a miracle machine but as you mentioned earlier it works in a missterius way, a sut down as you said is very dangerous.

In some way I need to do something else, TKD is a nice Martial Art but sometimes I think a need to evolotionate and try new things, I want to crosstaring in judo/aikido and keep teaching TKD because teaching is something I really like too.

Something about specialization. I've been seen MMA matches and yes this days the fighters are more prepared physaclly,mentally and technically, but no matter a figther has for example a black belt in BJJ and expertice in Mua Thai most of the times the system the fighter uses and even to finish his/her oponent inside the cage is the martial art or system that is the base of the fighter, for example a fighter with a black belt in BJJ who knows Mua Thay almost all oh his wins are for submition and very low for KO or TKO, in the other hand a fighter who is a striker with training in BJJ almost all of his wins will be by KO and TKO and very few by sumition for example.

So let's see how this will become, maybe I will try some judo and see how it works for me.

Manny