Looking for in depth information on Naihanji Hyungs

robertmrivers

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Upnorth

Both of the Motobu Ryu Naihanchi start from the same position, similar to the way that video starts chodan. Sandan, typically, starts from a position where the two fists are tight against each other in front of the groin.

So, all three, the way we do it, have a preliminary movement before the "first technique". I have seen other schools bring the elbows up straight from the ready position in number 2. There are definitely variations on that one. I studied the Chodan of Shobayashi Shorin Ryu (Eizo Shimabukuro), then the Okinawan Kempo version (Seiyu Oyata), even the Wado Ryu version until finally I have committed to the Motobu Ryu method. All four methods are taught in Okinawa/ Japan and they are all different with different ways of starting and stopping. So, don't sweat the differences too much. The interesting things become "why" they are different. But there are always going to be differences from style to style. The TSD version you sent me looks a lot like the Shotokan method. Looks good.

Regards

Rob
 

robertmrivers

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The reason I ask is because I'm wondering at how much our hyung has changed from the original version of this kata.

Sorry! Forgot to answer your question... The version you posted is not that different AT ALL. Some of the timing is different, but the movements are all pretty much present and accounted for! Learning a more "Okinawan" perspective with that foundation would be easy! You certainly wouldn't have to relearn anything...

As far as the video... I think I would rather just let it fly on its own. There is NO WAY that I would have the time to answer all of the questions. As I said, a picture is worth a thousand words. There is so much to discuss there that I would have to set up shop here at the screen and type all day. But, you, my friend, can do whatever you want with it. Post it anywhere you think it would help... However, I am shivering in fear at the thought of some who would watch it without reading this post and bombard me with unrelated comments!!!

There are essentially (and not in every case) three phases of learning...kihon, tuite, kyusho. Within each phase, there are several stages of learning where the technique is evolving. What you see there is a good kihon technique. And by kihon, I don't mean literally that it is basic, I mean that it falls into the kihon phase as the Tuite has not been added to it yet and the Kyusho implications are not discussed. The tuite isn't in it yet, but you might be able to see where it would fit. The kyusho could be there if (remember...it is not just knowing the names of the kyusho points, but in what order they need to be struck...) you are watching where the spear hand is going, the strike on the arm at LI, the leg points and finally the strike on the neck (your choice depending on where you set it up...ST9,10, LI, SI, or GB 20).

Regardless, the important thing is that the angle is important. Here is one of the major points in a nutshell.

In explicating kata there is a concept that, if you do the same thing twice, once left, once right, there is little significance to it because you are simply practicing each side. In the case of that particular movement in the video, many KMA's move on the 180, then the second movement steps in on the same line, as in the end of Pinan Nidan (Pyungahn chodan). SO, we are in essence doing the same movement 4 times there at the end (twice on the left, twice on the right). The significance is that there is originally an angle there which now removes the "practicing both sides" link in the first two steps on the left side. The entire left side is now its own technique and then the entire right side becomes the "practicing the other side".

Basically, whoever removed the angle (probably happened on the trip from OKinawa to Japan) did not understand the significance of keeping it in there. The kata was "simplified". Or, they did it on purpose...

Naturally, the way I did the low knife hands and the stance also play a part... if one is applying a back stance, for example, as in Shotokan/ TSD, then the range, shifting, timing, and power are all shifted elsewhere and this concept as well as the reason for having the cat foot stance get lost in the shuffle. There is a way, that I have been teaching, that allows for the back stance to work in that same technique but that requires a little re-programming which there isn't enough time in the day to type...but rest assured, there is NO need to change the TSD forms...drastically anyway. It is mostly perception that needs to be shifted.

So, don't hesitate to ask anything at all...but, certain things will be impossible to explain like this. ALL of the questions asked I record and will try to touch on them in future video installments somehow.

I hope this helps

Regards
Rob
 

robertmrivers

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Oh, one more thing...

I realize that not everyone steps straight...plenty use the angles as I have demonstrated...I was just showing the importance of the angle. The single low knife hand actually becomes its own stand alone technique...as do most of the techniques in kata. Basically, everytime we move (not after every combination) in a kata...another fight ends...

This is why I like showing these principles to TSD instructors in particular...the hyung are not so different that we have to relearn a form before we can get to the good stuff...

Rob
 
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I am enjoying this thread more and more…

Sensei Rivers,
This entire post was great, but I want to draw attention to this line in particular…

but rest assured, there is NO need to change the TSD forms...drastically anyway. It is mostly perception that needs to be shifted.

This is what I have been saying all along…

I have never told any Tang Soo Do practitioner that they have to leave Tang Soo Do and take up Okinawan or Japanese systems. I have stated clearly that; it isn’t about changing the way that you perform the technique (in most cases); it’s the mind-set that you have as you perform the techniques.

What do you perceive as the OYO as you are executing the technique?
Is the technique a response to a punch, a grab, a kick?
What direction is the attack coming from?

As you perceive these things:
Where is your center?
Where is the attacker’s center?
How are you constructing a correct power-line?
What are you doing with either hand?
Why did you choose the stance that you are now in?
And so on, and so on…

The only problem I have with those who do their version (as I see it) incorrectly is that they can’t explain any of what I just laid out. Find the answers to all of the above, and then you have something to discuss on these forums…, or at least, now you have an intelligent question to pose.



Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!
 

JT_the_Ninja

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I love the way you all say one thing and forget what you imply, but I'll let that go.

Oh, and the Kokuryo dynasty started sometime in the first-second century BC, so the 1500-year figure? Correct. There are indeed records of some form of TSD (early version, if anything) dating back to that time, mostly paintings found in tombs along the Ap Lok river.

And if you're saying that because the people who brought Okinawan forms to Korea might not have learned the exact applications that they didn't know what they did, then you forget that these guys were still martial artists. I've mentioned already that I do indeed practice form-specific applications of those moves (il soo sik, among others), and my instructors do take the time to explain what each move is doing.

I have been listening to what you all say, and I have been pondering these things before posting. Might I point out that I'm not exactly a teenager, so there's no need to address me as an intellectual inferior.

Anyway...off of that subject (unless you insist on recycling it further), back onto the keema hyung.

I'd always wondered why only keema hyung cho dan had a special beginning motion; interesting. I didn't get a chance yet to download that video, but I'll try to do so sometime tonight (public computer won't play it)

Here's a question to the TSD masters, just out of interest to see your perspectives: In keema hyung sam dan, the third move starts by punching over one's shoulder, ostensibly to an opponent behind. I've only been learning this form for a short while, so I haven't gotten down every last thing right yet; that said, how do you get any good power out of it? I'd assume massive waist twist, but I have a hard time doing that while still keeping my right arm straight in preparation for the cross and block immediately afterward. What's your take on that?
 

Makalakumu

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I love the way you all say one thing and forget what you imply, but I'll let that go.

There's no need to be so confrontational. Let's just let it go and be done with it.

Oh, and the Kokuryo dynasty started sometime in the first-second century BC, so the 1500-year figure? Correct. There are indeed records of some form of TSD (early version, if anything) dating back to that time, mostly paintings found in tombs along the Ap Lok river.

If they were practicing martial arts, they were NOT practicing Tang Soo Do. Here is an article on history that may be of some interest...

http://www.scottshaw.com/history/

And if you're saying that because the people who brought Okinawan forms to Korea might not have learned the exact applications that they didn't know what they did, then you forget that these guys were still martial artists. I've mentioned already that I do indeed practice form-specific applications of those moves (il soo sik, among others), and my instructors do take the time to explain what each move is doing.

If your instructor has made form-specific ill soo shik a requirment, then that is pretty neat. I can tell you this, THAT is a rarity when it comes to TSD. If you have a set of standardized Ill Soo Shik that deal with Naihanchi Cho Dan, I'd love to see them. Or at least read what they look like.

I have been listening to what you all say, and I have been pondering these things before posting. Might I point out that I'm not exactly a teenager, so there's no need to address me as an intellectual inferior.

JT it takes lot of humility to admit that you may have a few misconceptions about things. And it takes alot of maturity to sit back and listen. If you can do both of these, your TSD will only get better. If you can't, then you've bought yourself a one way ticket to stagnation.

I'd always wondered why only keema hyung cho dan had a special beginning motion; interesting. I didn't get a chance yet to download that video, but I'll try to do so sometime tonight (public computer won't play it)

Have you ever wondered what that move was used for?

Here's a question to the TSD masters, just out of interest to see your perspectives: In keema hyung sam dan, the third move starts by punching over one's shoulder, ostensibly to an opponent behind. I've only been learning this form for a short while, so I haven't gotten down every last thing right yet; that said, how do you get any good power out of it? I'd assume massive waist twist, but I have a hard time doing that while still keeping my right arm straight in preparation for the cross and block immediately afterward. What's your take on that?

It all depends on what you want to do with it. I see that move as a block.

Here's some more food for thought. These videos are of a couple of Ill Soo Shik that we practice from Naihanchi Cho Dan. Check them out...
 

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exile

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Oh, and the Kokuryo dynasty started sometime in the first-second century BC, so the 1500-year figure? Correct. There are indeed records of some form of TSD (early version, if anything) dating back to that time, mostly paintings found in tombs along the Ap Lok river.

Now that you've

(a) confused the time depth of the Kokuryo dynasty with the age of TSD (rather like me arguing that the Egypt Natioal Airlines has been around for almost five thousand years because the Pharonic Dynasties began approximately 2800 B.C.) and

(b) repeated the now well-known misinterpretation of the Koguryo tomb murals, again showing that you've done no serious investigation of Korean history (and completely missed my reference to this historical fallacy in the post that you responded to, apparently)

you might, as I suggested earlier, try to educate yourself on the matter, instead of retailing dojang folklore, by consulting Dakin Burdick's seminal papers `People and events of Taekwondo's Formative Years', the first in the 1997 volume of JAMA, and the extended version at http://budosportcopelle.ml/gesch.html, where he notes that

Of course, most literature on taekwondo describes the art as `thousands of years old', but this is simply not so. Most of the martial arts practiced in Korea before the nineteenth century were merely reflections of Chinese martial arts. The three most common pieces of evidence for the antiquity of taekwondo---the tomb murals of Koguryo Kingdom, the statue of Kumkang-Yuksa, and the Muye dobo tongji (Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts)---actually show that early Korean martial arts were largely derivative of Chinese martial arts(my emphasis)

noting futher that

(i) the Koguryo tomb murals, which depict (among other martial activities) groups of men seemingly engaged in empty-hand combat, actually constitute no evidence at all bearing on ancient Korean martial art, because, as he puts it in an earlier study,

none of the Koguryo tomb murals can be definitively identified as the practice of a kicking and striking art. The murals on the ceiling of the Muyong-chong are said to show `two men practicing a sort of Taekwondo'. They actually show two men---both with goatee, moustache and long hair---wearing loin cloths. They are at least four feet apart (their outstretched hands are a foot away from each other). The positions could be stretching, dancing or possibly wrestling Mongolian style, but they certainly do not resemble modern Taekwondo stances or techniques.'


The joke, as it happens, is that, according to Burdick `the martial arts depicted in Koguryo tomb murals closely resemble those in the tomb murals of the Eastern Han, located in what is now eastern China. This suggests that the form of Koguryo era martial arts emerged because of Chinese cultural influence, rather than independent development by the future Koreans'.

(ii) Burdick comments that `the statue of Kumkang-Yuksa at Sokkuram, which is often cited as the figure of an ancient warrior practicing taekwondo, is in fact a Buddhist guardian figure found throughout East Asia, and thus cannot be said to be unique to Korea either.' The Henning article I told you about, but which again you obviously didn't bother reading, echoes this observation, noting that `these guardians are in the style common to contemporary Tang China (618--907), on which they were most assuredly modeled. Even some reputable Korean sources refer to these figures as `wrestlers' rather than `boxers', but they are most commonly called `strong men' (lishi in Chinese or ryuksa in Korean).' (p.10; my emphasis).

(iii) The massive late 18th c. Korean martial arts manual Muye dobo tongji, supposedly an encyclopaedia of native Korean combat techniques, turns out to be `nearly identical to the Jixiao Xinshu (New Book for Effective Discipline)... by the Chinese General Qi Jiguang (1528--1587)', written nearly two and a half centuries earlier. (The translation and transliteration task involved, as Burdick notes, would have been well within the capabilities of the Muye dobo tongji's author, `a scholar famed for his erudition in classical Chinese'. Henning, in the 2000 JAMA paper crucial to this topic (which, as I say, you evidently still haven't read, though you seem to be under the impression that you know something about early Korean MAs) offers a detailed breakdown of the sources of the techniques discussed in the Muye dobo tongji, noting the separate weapons and techniques itemized there.

And all this is just the tip of the iceberg. So you see, JT, the problem is that you have strong opinions which are based on recycled bad history (fueled in some instances by Korean national government fables; see Burdick for documentation; I'm getting tired of supplying you with information you can find out on your own), rather than any actual knowledge on your part. And the point is that Sensei Rivers, Master Penfil, Upnorthkyosa and I can see this lack of even basic knowledge of the topic in every one of your posts; that's why you're getting the feedback you're getting. REPEAT: every time you post, JT, you make your lack of technical and historical knowledge obvious. Is none of this feedback getting through to you, so that you finally get the point that maybe it's time to actually learn something before posting your views for everyone to read, and shake their heads at?
 

JT_the_Ninja

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upnorthkyosa:
If your instructor has made form-specific ill soo shik a requirment, then that is pretty neat. I can tell you this, THAT is a rarity when it comes to TSD. If you have a set of standardized Ill Soo Shik that deal with Naihanchi Cho Dan, I'd love to see them. Or at least read what they look like.
Well, that I know, we only have pyong ahn il soo sik. The videos you show look really cool, though. I think I get where the first one comes from keema hyung cho dan, but the second one's a mystery to me. Mind enlightening me? I probably won't want to practice them until/unless my sa bom nim shows them to me, but they do put a few parts of the form in somewhat clearer focus as to what they could also do.

JT it takes lot of humility to admit that you may have a few misconceptions about things. And it takes alot of maturity to sit back and listen. If you can do both of these, your TSD will only get better. If you can't, then you've bought yourself a one way ticket to stagnation.
Don't I know it (try listening to one of Choong Jae Nim's hour-long lectures). I'm willing to accept that history's a mucky subject, especially back that far. So if you're right, I'm cool with that. Either way, I still hold to my principle that the Okinawan/Chinese originals from which TSD got its forms are only applicable by comparison, historical and methodical.

Have you ever wondered what that move was used for?

It all depends on what you want to do with it. I see that move as a block.
Often. As far as I know, in TSD it's just the choon bee stance for that form, setting you up to deliver the first move. It's clearly has block applications, though, especially since it leads into another block of the same nature. Certainly an important block too, when you think about what it's protecting ;)

Here's some more food for thought. These videos are of a couple of Ill Soo Shik that we practice from Naihanchi Cho Dan. Check them out...
As I said before, really cool. Would you mind detailing them out, briefly at least?

And are there ones based on forms like sip soo and jinte? That'd be cool. Some of the moves in those just beg to be put into il soo sik.

Lastly, I know people come to the annual National All Martial Arts Tournaments here in Pittsburgh from as far away as Michigan (I think one time we had one or two from Washington State); do you ever come to those? Same question to anyone else here.

exile: my lack of historical knowledge I'll buy. my lack of technical skill I'll buy (flat feet and bad knees aren't fun). Technical knowledge, though? Nah, I pay attention, and I know how techniques/forms should be executed, at least, even if I have trouble executing them in actuality.

EDIT
Now that I've seen the "Martial Minute" clip, that was pretty durn cool. My school always does the 45-degree attacks at the end of pyong ahn cho dan, and for much the same reason, I guess. Doesn't really have a lot of application when you're just an orange belt, but when you get to the red belt level (8th gup-2nd pretest), the red belt il soo sik involve a lot of getting to the side so that you have that open attack. We do more gut/face kicks than shin kicks, though. I like the shin-kick, at the same time, especially because it's reminiscent of some of the higher-level ho sin sul moves. Pretty cool stuff. The other big difference I saw was in the cross for the ha dan soo do mahkee. We always wind up more, with the hand that will do the actual block on the opposite shoulder, palm facing neck, and the other hand behind the back, ready to snap into position just in front of the solar plexus. Allows for more momentum and snap, though I'm not going to suggest the one in the video wasn't effective.
 

exile

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exile: my lack of historical knowledge I'll buy. my lack of technical skill I'll buy (flat feet and bad knees aren't fun). Technical knowledge, though? Nah, I pay attention, and I know how techniques/forms should be executed, at least, even if I have trouble executing them in actuality.

Well, JT, I'll say this much for you: you're very cooperative in illustrating my points about your posts. As this little passage indicates, and as your whole post here and previous ones make clear, you think that the important things about forms are the choreographed performance of them—`how the forms should be executed', to use your own words—rather than the information about combat applications of the movements built into the forms. You see a `punching' motion and a hikite retraction, and it never occurs to you that what you're seeing is not a punch/chamber, but a head twist that breaks the assailant's neck. You see a `down block', without ever recognizing that the `chamber' to that block is the forearm component of an arm lock, and the first part of the `block' is actually an elbow strike to the attackers face, with the `block' itself a blow to the carotid artery. That kind of technique, JT—the combat technique encoded in the deliberately deceptive description language that TKD/TSD took over holus-bolus from karate, which got it from Itosu's revision of kata teaching in the 1890s to get it accepted into the Okinawan public schools—a trick that Itosu himself was perfectly upfront about when confronted by criticism from other karateka. Those disguised applications, the bunkai of these forms, closer to the surface in Okinawan karate training than anywhere else, are what Upnorthkyosa, Master Penfil and Sensei Rivers are trying to tell you about, and you just... don't... get... it.
 

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...execution involves all of that. Haven't I said that I train with my opponent in mind? What you've just said is no new concept to me, and only further illustrates why I've had to repeat myself several times. I don't want to keep up this debate, since somehow a mutual understanding remains elusive.

One of the first things my instructor taught me was that TSD is the way of the "defense-strike." Even in defending, you're really attacking. I know that when I'm crossing for a block, I might also be doing ho sin sul escaping a grab or twisting an opponent's arm.

Anyway, now that's resolved, I hope. So what's your opinion of those naihanji-based il soo sik, exile? Do you do anything like that?
 

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...execution involves all of that. Haven't I said that I train with my opponent in mind? What you've just said is no new concept to me, and only further illustrates why I've had to repeat myself several times. I don't want to keep up this debate, since somehow a mutual understanding remains elusive.

One of the first things my instructor taught me was that TSD is the way of the "defense-strike." Even in defending, you're really attacking. I know that when I'm crossing for a block, I might also be doing ho sin sul escaping a grab or twisting an opponent's arm.

Anyway, now that's resolved, I hope. So what's your opinion of those naihanji-based il soo sik, exile? Do you do anything like that?

JT, TKD doesn't have naihanchi. We train applications of Pyung Ahns, Palgwes, and some of the Dan forms, and we train them fairly realistically, in the sense that a small mistake in judgment could easily result in serious or permanent joint damage. If I'm training, say, Palgwe Sa Jang, for example, I will be facing a partner who throws a hard roundhouse at my head; my application of the `rising/middle' block combination will be an instinctive rising conterstrike on the attacker's arm (rising block), with a simultaneous encircling of the attacking arm with my other arm (middle block), turning my body 90º to the attacker; the `uppercut punch' which follows I interpret as a trapping and thrusting of the attacker's raised arm around the fulcrum of my `middle block' arm, so that a hard pivot away from his body and a sharp drop in my center of gravity forces him onto the ground, and a hard kick or two to his head finishes him. As a rule, we leave out the actual kicks to the head. The initial sequence in Palgwe Ii-Jang is practiced similarly: high block deflecting a roundhouse punch, turn to the side kicking the attackers groin or knee, causing his upper body to instinctively lower forward; the blocking arm by a muchimi movement seizes the hair or, even better, the ear, and the `punch' with the other arm consists of a grip on the attackers lowered, forward jaw, which I twist counterclockwise while gripping his ear (the `punch') and twisting counterclockwise with my `blocking' hand (the `retraction chamber). That should be sufficient to break his neck, if it seems necessary to do so. The 180º `turn to the other side' is taken to be not a turn but a throw: my pivot pulls his body off balance, and the symmetrical punch on the other side can really be interpreted as a punch, with the `rising block' a hold on his head pulling it back, allowing me a damaging punch to this larynx, crushing his throat if need be.

We don't actually kill our training partners, clearly. But we aren't exactly gentle with each other, either. The point is, we train all hyungs including the kichos, in as realistic way as we can without anyone actually winding up in intensive care. This is not standard one-step training; it's much closer to Abernethy's `kata-based' sparring. But I'm confident that it manage to distill a good deal of the combat juice out of the forms we train, which are, so far as I can tell, `mixmastered' combinations of elements from familiar Okinawan/Shotokan katas...

I have studied the Naihanchi set, even though they're not in our curriculum. Unfortunately, the WTF, in its wisdom [??] eliminated many of the old Okinawan kata forms from thei TKD curriculum, even though they were there in the Kwan era and the transition to the early KTA. But I've investigated the Naihanchi and some of the bunkai interpretations for it, and this was why I responded to the original post: Abernethy gives some very convincing, elegant and combat-effective interpretations for the apps in his DVD on Naihanchi/Bessai. Some of the moves have survived as subsequences in the colored belt hyungs we study.
 

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You know, that's something I've considered doing more than once, actually. The problem's always finding a partner(s) outside of class. I try to incorporate form combinations in sparring as much as I can, but yeah, that's a good idea.
Ee Dan, especially with the first moves. So I get what you're saying about the double-block; that's one of our pyong ahn il soo sik combinations, pretty much. The only thing I don't understand is what happened to the roundhouse? Didn't you block the kick? Or do you mean a roundhouse punch?

edit: wow, orange belt on this board already! woohoo!

further edit: this is what frustrates me about TSD videos on the internet:
>_<
 
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exile

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You know, that's something I've considered doing more than once, actually. The problem's always finding a partner(s) outside of class. I try to incorporate form combinations in sparring as much as I can, but yeah, that's a good idea.
Ee Dan, especially with the first moves. So I get what you're saying about the double-block; that's one of our pyong ahn il soo sik combinations, pretty much.
edit: wow, orange belt on this board already! woohoo!

further edit: this is what frustrates me about TSD videos on the internet:
>_<

Last thing first:

The only thing I don't understand is what happened to the roundhouse? Didn't you block the kick? Or do you mean a roundhouse punch?

It's the roundhouse punch I was talking about. The guy's punching arm is way up there as a result of your overhead `block' and your other arm is curled under the upper part of that arm. You're in a great position now to do that kind of switch with your upper blocking arm so that you establish a grip his punching arm from above and can jam it down around your `middle blocking' arm going under his shoulder. Now his shoulder is way hyperextended and a sharp powerful rotation of your hips away from him will force him down—he's got no choice, his shoulder is totally compromised, he's got no balance, etc. I've experimented with this application on various partners, at both slow and relatively quite rapid speeds and it works very well, as long as you're able to move your upper blocking hand quickly so that it rests on top of his deflected punching arm. That can be a little tricky, but it's something I try to drill—I really think that being able to establish a grip on your oppo quickly, as a preliminary step in setting up a lock which you can then use to set up a finishing strike, is one of the key skills in this family of MAs, and it's one which I don't get the feeling is practiced nearly enough. Which brings up your second point:

You know, that's something I've considered doing more than once, actually. The problem's always finding a partner(s) outside of class. I try to incorporate form combinations in sparring as much as I can, but yeah, that's a good idea.
Ee Dan, especially with the first moves. So I get what you're saying about the double-block; that's one of our pyong ahn il soo sik combinations, pretty much.

Great idea, I can't recommend it highly enough! You only can work on so many things in class, but a lot of little details and refinements that are critical in making these techs we do work are really best practiced and studied in small groups of like-minded practitioners.

edit: wow, orange belt on this board already! woohoo!

You've been a good sport about all the flak we've been giving you, JT—partly out of frustration: when you've got something you think is good and you don't seem to be able to get someone to at least look at it, it can be very... well, frustrating. But check your rep count... :)
 
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Well, that I know, we only have pyong ahn il soo sik. The videos you show look really cool, though. I think I get where the first one comes from keema hyung cho dan, but the second one's a mystery to me. Mind enlightening me? I probably won't want to practice them until/unless my sa bom nim shows them to me, but they do put a few parts of the form in somewhat clearer focus as to what they could also do.

The first one comes from a pretty obvious section right at the beginning. It looks a little better when you actually bump uke with the opening counter, because that gets him bending over.

The second one comes after the cross step, I just decided to take the lock to the ground in the rear mount because I'm more comfortable doing a RNC from that position.

Often. As far as I know, in TSD it's just the choon bee stance for that form, setting you up to deliver the first move. It's clearly has block applications, though, especially since it leads into another block of the same nature. Certainly an important block too, when you think about what it's protecting ;)

The opening move has uke grabbing your wrist same side. Then, tori turns his hand so that he is looking into his palm. At the same time, he delivers a heel kick to uke's knee. Then tori reaches up with his other hand and grasps uke's over the thumb. Tori, then draws both hands down to apply a wrist lock.

And are there ones based on forms like sip soo and jinte? That'd be cool. Some of the moves in those just beg to be put into il soo sik.

Sure there are. You just need to know what to look for. Right now, I'm putting together a set for Chinto. My ultimate goal is to have a set for every form that I do.
 

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Last thing first:
It's the roundhouse punch I was talking about. The guy's punching arm is way up there as a result of your overhead `block' and your other arm is curled under the upper part of that arm. You're in a great position now to do that kind of switch with your upper blocking arm so that you establish a grip his punching arm from above and can jam it down around your `middle blocking' arm going under his shoulder. Now his shoulder is way hyperextended and a sharp powerful rotation of your hips away from him will force him down—he's got no choice, his shoulder is totally compromised, he's got no balance, etc. I've experimented with this application on various partners, at both slow and relatively quite rapid speeds and it works very well, as long as you're able to move your upper blocking hand quickly so that it rests on top of his deflected punching arm. That can be a little tricky, but it's something I try to drill—I really think that being able to establish a grip on your oppo quickly, as a preliminary step in setting up a lock which you can then use to set up a finishing strike, is one of the key skills in this family of MAs, and it's one which I don't get the feeling is practiced nearly enough.
Ah. Okay. In TSD we don't really use roundhouse punches; too easily seen and blocked, and too easy to break your hand. Again, it's still very much like pyong ahn ee dan, even to the uppercut (where you pull your opponent into you). Cool stuff. And yeah, I agree that there does need to be more emphasis on making sure your opponent is set up; that's part of the self-defensive nature of TSD - you attack where you make the opening.


upnorthkyosa:
The opening move has uke grabbing your wrist same side. Then, tori turns his hand so that he is looking into his palm. At the same time, he delivers a heel kick to uke's knee. Then tori reaches up with his other hand and grasps uke's over the thumb. Tori, then draws both hands down to apply a wrist lock.
sounds like one of the cho dan ho sin sul I recently learned (just recently because they were just recently added to the stuff we gotta be able to do if asked at a test at cho dan level, or above). Whenever I do a shin kick, I always think of bassai so, though, since I don't usually think of keema hyung with kicks. Then again, I recently saw a video where this one cho dan did sip soo with kicks down the middle with his double outside-inside block/strikes, like in pyong ahn sam dan.

Sure there are. You just need to know what to look for. Right now, I'm putting together a set for Chinto. My ultimate goal is to have a set for every form that I do.

Awesome! I'm willing to be that they exist for higher-level black belts at my school, waiting for them to be shown to me. If not, though, someone should get to that! C.S. Kim Karate shouldn't be known for laxness!
 

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Ah. Okay. In TSD we don't really use roundhouse punches; too easily seen and blocked, and too easy to break your hand. Again, it's still very much like pyong ahn ee dan, even to the uppercut (where you pull your opponent into you). Cool stuff. And yeah, I agree that there does need to be more emphasis on making sure your opponent is set up; that's part of the self-defensive nature of TSD - you attack where you make the opening.

No, most MAs in general don't use roundhouses—as you say, it's too easily signaled (the shoulder movements alone are a `tell'). But we train against roundhouse punches, grabs that the assailant will employ prior to a headbutt or a groin kick, etc., because those are among the most common initial attacks by an untrained attacker. A lot of the really hard-core techs that these forms contain are really for use against a street assailant—an untrained but still dangerously violent opponent. The UK combat-MA people call these `habitual acts of violence' (HAOV), a term coined by Patrick McCarthy as a label for the half-dozen or so moves one of which you can be pretty sure an assault will begin with. There are a huge number of good counters to these moves in the forms, so it seems likely that not much has changes—the people who created these forms decades, generations or centuries ago were very likely looking at the same kind of HAOVs from thugs on their streets that we do today, and it was probably a good deal more common back then.

But it's true: once you see how the techs work, you have to drill them, and drill them, and drill them so you have to do virtually do thinking at all when it comes time to apply them. That's one of the best parts about `extracurricular' training with a few buddies who are on the same wavelength; you can just keep working the moves until they get driven into muscle memory and will come out fast, when you need them, adrenaline rush or no adrenaline rush...
 
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Often. As far as I know, in TSD it's just the choon bee stance for that form, setting you up to deliver the first move. It's clearly has block applications, though, especially since it leads into another block of the same nature. Certainly an important block too, when you think about what it's protecting

JT,
This is the part that very few understand...

In this hyung, the first technique doesn't come after your hands are placed in front of your groin...

You have to understand the culture that created to hyung to understand the meaning. We, as Americans meet on the street and start our introduction with a hand-shake. Such interpersonal contact didn't exist in the times that these hyung were created. If you were walking along and a stranger approached you, you would both face each other and bow as an act of courtesy.

Keep in mind; these hyung were the training tools of those early martial pioneers to prepare for defense, not compete in a tournament of earn a belt.

The bow "IS" the first technique in the hyung. Any time you begin a hyung with a fancy movement that brings your hands together as in Bassai, Naifhanchi, Shipsoo, and up the line, you are intercepting the aggressors incoming weapon and dealing with it.

In hyung training; every move, every rotation has specific purpose. In what you call "Keema Hyung Cho Dan", when your hands arrive in front of your groin, you already have your opponent in a locking position. You are not in any way, shape of form protecting your groin. If you WERE protecting your groin with your hands in that position you would get all of your fingers broken...

It is that kind of misinformation passed down by instructors who have noreal clue as to what these hyung are teaching that we are all addressing in this thread.

You have continually stated that your Sa Bom's have taught you what every technique is for and that you know what you are doing... This implication as you state it that you are protecting your groin in this part of the hyung speaks to that misunderstanding of Bunkai that has been passed down for so long by those who THINK that they are masters in this art...

You stated earlier that you were not aware of the terms Bunkai, Henka and Oyo. Without these principles, hyung have no real meaning.

Bunkai = Application of technique
Henka = Variation in application
Oyo = The reverse side of the technique (what is the opponent doing to make you respond...i.e. punch, kick grab, etc.)

Understand these principles and you will see what makes sense and what doesn't.

Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!
 

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You've said before that we don't need to change the hyung that we practice and I see that. We certainly can do alot with our hyung. However, when it comes to almost everything else that Tangsoodoin are doing, it seems that THAT needs an upgrade.

We can talk about applications for this or that form and maybe even get together with a partner and try to make some of it work, but unless we address all of the other aspects of our training, from kicho, to ill soo shik, to deh ryun, and even kyok pa, there will not be any systemized way of learning this material.

This, for me, has been one of the most confounding parts of my journey. I look at Naihanchi Chodan and I ponder over the type of information the student needs to learn and practice in order to really understand this form. There is a big disconnect in the curriculum. For example, in SBDMDK, at Red Belt, very little, if any, of the basics are applicable to actually performing the bunkai of this form. SBD red belts are mostly learning the ariel TKD kicks...:(

And it's not just the basics, it's the entire delivery system. Houston, we've really got a problem now. Not knowing the bunkai for the forms created a series of systematic disconnects that reverberates through the entire system. And JT's comment regarding the opening move is just an example of what this causes. (I'm not picking on you JT, I'm just illustrating a point and I'm glad that you are interested and reading what we have to say.) How can you understand that technique if you don't break it down and practice all of the basics associated with it?

The bottom line is that I believe that teaching the bunkai reveals deep systematic flaws in the way that TSD was traditionally taught. Just informing people that these bunkai exist isn't enough, because that is just the tip of the iceberg.

upnorthkyosa
 

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You've said before that we don't need to change the hyung that we practice and I see that. We certainly can do alot with our hyung. However, when it comes to almost everything else that Tangsoodoin are doing, it seems that THAT needs an upgrade.

We can talk about applications for this or that form and maybe even get together with a partner and try to make some of it work, but unless we address all of the other aspects of our training, from kicho, to ill soo shik, to deh ryun, and even kyok pa, there will not be any systemized way of learning this material.

This, for me, has been one of the most confounding parts of my journey. I look at Naihanchi Chodan and I ponder over the type of information the student needs to learn and practice in order to really understand this form. There is a big disconnect in the curriculum. For example, in SBDMDK, at Red Belt, very little, if any, of the basics are applicable to actually performing the bunkai of this form. SBD red belts are mostly learning the ariel TKD kicks...:(

And it's not just the basics, it's the entire delivery system. Houston, we've really got a problem now. Not knowing the bunkai for the forms created a series of systematic disconnects that reverberates through the entire system. And JT's comment regarding the opening move is just an example of what this causes. (I'm not picking on you JT, I'm just illustrating a point and I'm glad that you are interested and reading what we have to say.) How can you understand that technique if you don't break it down and practice all of the basics associated with it?

The bottom line is that I believe that teaching the bunkai reveals deep systematic flaws in the way that TSD was traditionally taught. Just informing people that these bunkai exist isn't enough, because that is just the tip of the iceberg.

upnorthkyosa

But UpNKy, this is a systemic problem that started when the karate that had originally been kata-based in Okinawa was exported to Japan and taught by masters who themselves were either weak on the bunkai or chose not to impart too much of it to the citizens of the `occupying power'. Everything you're saying goes back at least a decade or more before the original Kwan founder learned their karate from GF, Toyama Kanken and others. The kihon routines, the use of kata as promotion checkpoints rather than compendia of combat techs to be ferreted out and trained hard... all of that stuff was going on in the first third of 20th c. Japanese karate. So the Korean striking arts constructed on that platform were bound to reflect those limitations...

...and the problem you're noting with TSD (and of course, even more so maybe with TKD) is still endemic to most karate training. Eventually, one hopes, the current back-to-bunkai and realistic applications movement now underway in the UK and certain other places may lead to a sea-change in karate curriculum, and even KMA curricula (thinking of Anslow's and O'Neil's work in this direction), but it's not going to happen overnight, because, I suspect, for a lot of karateka, let along KMAists, the problem isn't obvious. Not knowing what's underlying the kata, and the way that hidden technical repertoire needs to be trained, a lot of people in the karate-based arts just can't see what the fuss is about, I suspect...
 

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