Looking for in depth information on Naihanji Hyungs

[exile]

When it comes to TSD, studying the arts that formed the root of our hyung, CAN and DOES help you do the form better with more power. Once you understand what you are actually doing with the moves, sometimes the entire character of the move changes. The entire emphasis suddenly shifts to something else.

I don't learn hyung as a series of motions but as a series of techniques. Each technique has a specific purpose, and my instructor takes special care to inform us what each move does in the form. From the beginning, we learn to think of hyung as fight sequences and to picture our opponents so that we know where to block/attack. It's not like hyung are just out there, patterns of motion.

If you know the technique and what it does, you know what you're doing in the form.

I don't see that you guys are actually saying anything that suggests you fundamentally disagree with each other. Everyone recognizes, or should recognize, that hyungs represent technique sets, chains of movement sequences where each sequence in the chain embodies one or more effective combat scenarios. The issue is just how to get access to those scenarios, the optimal application of each sequence for combat purposes. What Master Penfil was saying, and UpNKy underscoring, is that in carrying out the bunkai that will yield these best-standard applications, it makes a good deal of sense to seek out the imput of those who practice the martial arts from whose kata TSD inherited these hyungs. There is widespread agreement amongst MA historians that the bunkai associated with these originally Okinawan kata were not taught in their full breadth or depth to the expatriate Okinawan karateka who brought karate to Japan, so that the kwan founders themselves never learned in full depth the combat applications that masters like Matsumura, Itosu, Azato and Chofu Kyan knew and taught (selectively). If that's the case, you have two choices if you want to go beyond the limits of TSD's founders' own understanding: you work out the bunkai and oyo yourself, or you get as much information as you can on the combat apps built into to the Okinawan-based hyungs from those who are in the closest line of knowledge transmission from the masters who created the kata which became KMA's earliest hyungs.


No one's saying these are mutually exclusive choices. Certainly there's plenty of room for grappling with bunkai analysis and the associated oyo, using well-tested principles for decoding the techniques in the hyungs pioneered by karateka such as Iain Abernethy, Rick Clark and Bill Burgar. But I can't see how you can fault getting information from master practitioners of the `source art' for these hyungs—among whom a higher degree of knowledge of the original applications probaby resides than anywhere else in the world.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have to disagree here. I don't learn hyung as a series of motions but as a series of techniques. Each technique has a specific purpose, and my instructor takes special care to inform us what each move does in the form. From the beginning, we learn to think of hyung as fight sequences and to picture our opponents so that we know where to block/attack. It's not like hyung are just out there, patterns of motion.

I'm sure that you do. When I trained in SBD, I did too. The problem is that the techniques that were shown, weren't the actual techniques that the move was supposed to be. And there was NO parity with the interpretations. Most of them were 2nd rate when compared to the actual intended application.

If you know the technique and what it does, you know what you're doing in the form. It's that simple. I can't think of a single instance in a form where I wouldn't know what I was doing or where my opponent was while doing the technique. Just going through the motions is a practice very much discouraged, at my school anyway.

That's great! Then why do you step into kyo cha rip jaseh at the end of the first half of Pyung Ahn Sa and O dan?

And if you think that about using the hip for power, you don't understand me. Perhaps I should use "waist" instead. You get power from your center, not just your limbs. A fan doesn't blow much if its motor isn't using enough power, and the motor is at the center. Show me one instance of it being counter-productive, and I'll show you a technique misunderstood.

Moving from your center much different then the SBD concept of "use of hip." That concept implies an emphasis twisting of the actual hips in a particular direction. The direction of this waist twist makes a difference when performing different techniques.

All of the tuite and nage in our hyungs require a different interpretation of this concept. Hwang Kee only designed this concept for striking and blocking.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

It seems that you people think only people who lived centuries ago knew anything about martial arts. At least, that's the impression I get, from your comments.

So what if the "exact" sequence of techniques originally framed by Japanese martial artists wasn't translated perfectly to Korean TSD. Did it ever cross your mind that TSD is not karate, not supposed to be exactly the same? And did it ever occur to you that it's possible to learn some things for yourself, without having them dictated to you?

Even if the exact moves have changed somewhat, their application still works, and they're still good techniques. A high block still blocks high, a center punch still strikes the solar plexus (il kyock pil sal), and every other move still does what it does. I don't want to let another art dictate what's "right," when there really is no "right," as long as you have your basics right. If you know how to block, punch, kick, etc., and you know how to move your body, and you know what you're doing at any given moment, the practice thereof will make you stronger and better.

That's great! Then why do you step into kyo cha rip jaseh at the end of the first half of Pyung Ahn Sa and O dan?

I'm sure you'll come up with some historical detail that's embedded here, but here's my answer:

sa dan: you've just snap kicked, and you jump (not step) into the next move, which could be either ahneso pakero makee or (depending on how you want to look at it) a kap kwan strike to the face. The front foot goes out, and the back foot follows it, both feet going in the same direction so that your power is focused in that direction. As to why they're crossed, the back leg helps to give you more stability.

o dan: this one's a little shakier for me, but I'd say it's most of the same reasons. You're not leaping, but since you're not taking the time to pick up your right foot and step out into chungul jase or hugul jase, you might not have the requisite room, or time. The left foot comes right behind the right, still with both feet pointed forward. Again, this could be either a block or strike - you just smashed the one opponent's head with your elbow, so he's on the ground and someone else is coming at you.

Any more questions? It's hard to get out exactly what I mean through words, and I'm sure there's a lot more I have still to learn (if I think of it, I'll ask my sa bom nim tomorrow night more about these instances), but from my observations and from things I've heard from instructors, this is what I have to say in those matters.

So again, what Okinawan schools do is fine, and I'm not about to pass judgment on them for not doing their forms the way I do mine. We have different styles, so there are going to be some differences. I seem to recall Bruce Lee once saying that, since all humans have the same basic body structure, they're all going to fight alike. How you choose to express each technique is determined by who trained you and how you find most effective. We're no dumber than people 500 years ago, since they were just people too.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

JT,
You are very strong minded about what you are learning, and as a student should, you have strong loyalty to your grandmaster. That is all good, and should always be as such.

There is one problem however…

We have many ITF schools here in Michigan and I have had my share of experience with them. Several ITF black belts joined my school two years ago after I spent three months teaching them and many others from the school that they came from. These black belts were part of the largest group of ITF schools in the country. They did EVERYTHING exactly as they were taught by Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim. The way that Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim teaches every technique is incorrect (based on what the way that Hwang Kee taught it). If you are following his example, you are off balance and off center with regard to your power-line, balance points, etc. These basics being incorrect translate into your hyung being as such. When I started working with the ITF students here in Detroit, it took ten minutes of discussion and demonstration for them to see exactly what I am discussing here and from that point to this; they have never gone back to the ITF structure. It is simply wrong…

This is not a matter of me trying to act like a know-it-all. It isn’t a matter of; if you’re not a Japanese or Okinawan practitioner you don’t know anything. Hwang Kee taught vary differently then what the ITF teaches. The body angles at the rear foot, Hips and shoulder are all different. The direction that one moves his/her hips while executing defensive and offensive techniques is different. Hwang Kee taught correct physiology. I know this because of the number of years that I have spent training with my instructor, KJN C.I. Kim. KJN C.I. Kim has taught exactly as Hwang Kee taught, and will never change the way that he executes or teaches technique. I have personally trained with Hwang Kee in past years. I was able to experience first hand how Hwang taught. This is how I know that my instructor never changed his way from Hwang Kee’s way.

After 35 years of training I am a 7th Dan. I didn’t get promoted by KJN C.I. Kim up the ranks through the years without being able to demonstrate what I know to be accurate. As a gup member of your association there is much that you (admittedly) don’t know, and there is much that your Sa Bom Nim does not know as well. Every time that one of us here on the discussion board tries to pass along good information to you that will assist you in your growth, it is for us, a matter of extending to you, that which we have worked hard over the years to uncover for the sole purpose of helping you grow with a little less strain in finding the things that we had to search for.

When we discuss what we have learned from the Okinawan and Japanese variants, we are not dogging our Korean instructors, and we are not changing the name of our systems from Tang Soo Do to anything else. Hwang Kee himself said; Tang Soo Do is the ULTIMATE martial art because in his way of thinking, Tang Soo Do denies no technique. If you read his book, “Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do” you will see two pictures, side by side. One picture is of a Neanderthal man coming out of the jungle being attacked by a Saber-Tooth Tiger and the other is of a Sherman Tank firing its gun. Hwang wrote of these two pictures that; these pictures are both examples of Tang Soo Do. As far as Hwang Kee was concerned, he didn’t create Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do began with the first conscious action of the first human that raised his/her hand in defense against man or beast.

Hwang Kee also wrote in the same book; it is regrettable to have to discuss that there are men who seek to “claim” that they created the origin of the art that they teach. What ever we, as teachers, teach, we have been taught by someone else. We may at times derive new ideas and concept from what we have been taught that we think of as our own ideas and concepts, but without the seed being planted by those who came before us, we would not have had the basis for such discoveries.

Hwang Kee and the other Korean masters who chose to incorporate the Okinawan kata into their own systems were only taught the sequential movements that make up these hyung. They were never given the Bunkai, Henka and Oyo that were originally devised by the creators. Like many others out there teaching, I have been blessed to have access to that lineage and teach it to who ever is interested.

Make some time in your schedule and come to Detroit for a couple of days. I will personally show you what the difference is in what you are doing, and what you should be doing…

What you will learn in a short time will positively effect everything that you will do from that point forward, but only if you are willing to invest in yourself to make the trip and the effort. The door is open. Step inside…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[exile]

JT,
You are very strong minded about what you are learning, and as a student should, you have strong loyalty to your grandmaster. That is all good, and should always be as such.

There is one problem however…

We have many ITF schools here in Michigan and I have had my share of experience with them. Several ITF black belts joined my school two years ago after I spent three months teaching them and many others from the school that they came from. These black belts were part of the largest group of ITF schools in the country. They did EVERYTHING exactly as they were taught by Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim. The way that Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim teaches every technique is incorrect (based on what the way that Hwang Kee taught it). If you are following his example, you are off balance and off center with regard to your power-line, balance points, etc. These basics being incorrect translate into your hyung being as such. When I started working with the ITF students here in Detroit, it took ten minutes of discussion and demonstration for them to see exactly what I am discussing here and from that point to this; they have never gone back to the ITF structure. It is simply wrong…

This is not a matter of me trying to act like a know-it-all. It isn’t a matter of; if you’re not a Japanese or Okinawan practitioner you don’t know anything. Hwang Kee taught vary differently then what the ITF teaches. The body angles at the rear foot, Hips and shoulder are all different. The direction that one moves his/her hips while executing defensive and offensive techniques is different. Hwang Kee taught correct physiology. I know this because of the number of years that I have spent training with my instructor, KJN C.I. Kim. KJN C.I. Kim has taught exactly as Hwang Kee taught, and will never change the way that he executes or teaches technique. I have personally trained with Hwang Kee in past years. I was able to experience first hand how Hwang taught. This is how I know that my instructor never changed his way from Hwang Kee’s way.

After 35 years of training I am a 7th Dan. I didn’t get promoted by KJN C.I. Kim up the ranks through the years without being able to demonstrate what I know to be accurate. As a gup member of your association there is much that you (admittedly) don’t know, and there is much that your Sa Bom Nim does not know as well. Every time that one of us here on the discussion board tries to pass along good information to you that will assist you in your growth, it is for us, a matter of extending to you, that which we have worked hard over the years to uncover for the sole purpose of helping you grow with a little less strain in finding the things that we had to search for.

When we discuss what we have learned from the Okinawan and Japanese variants, we are not dogging our Korean instructors, and we are not changing the name of our systems from Tang Soo Do to anything else. Hwang Kee himself said; Tang Soo Do is the ULTIMATE martial art because in his way of thinking, Tang Soo Do denies no technique. If you read his book, “Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do” you will see two pictures, side by side. One picture is of a Neanderthal man coming out of the jungle being attacked by a Saber-Tooth Tiger and the other is of a Sherman Tank firing its gun. Hwang wrote of these two pictures that; these pictures are both examples of Tang Soo Do. As far as Hwang Kee was concerned, he didn’t create Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do began with the first conscious action of the first human that raised his/her hand in defense against man or beast.

Hwang Kee also wrote in the same book; it is regrettable to have to discuss that there are men who seek to “claim” that they created the origin of the art that they teach. What ever we, as teachers, teach, we have been taught by someone else. We may at times derive new ideas and concept from what we have been taught that we think of as our own ideas and concepts, but without the seed being planted by those who came before us, we would not have had the basis for such discoveries.

Hwang Kee and the other Korean masters who chose to incorporate the Okinawan kata into their own systems were only taught the sequential movements that make up these hyung. They were never given the Bunkai, Henka and Oyo that were originally devised by the creators. Like many others out there teaching, I have been blessed to have access to that lineage and teach it to who ever is interested.

Make some time in your schedule and come to Detroit for a couple of days. I will personally show you what the difference is in what you are doing, and what you should be doing…

What you will learn in a short time will positively effect everything that you will do from that point forward, but only if you are willing to invest in yourself to make the trip and the effort. The door is open. Step inside…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Terrific post, Master Penfil.

I only wish that I had your patience and forebearance, but alas...

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Master Tolstoy,
Thank you for those kind words…

I meet with members of other associations and for that matter, other systems on a regular basis. I am always the “Bad-Guy” in the beginning, but within a relatively short time things change, and what I discuss is clearly understood.

I have developed a thick skin and a great deal of patience as a result of such encounters, and have established many awesome relationships as a result of the interactions.

Anyone who is interested in training with me is always welcome, and it’s always about good times and good training. The great thing about such involvements is that, just as I bring a great deal to the table, I know that you do as well. We can, and will learn much from one another. This gives me a chance to become a student all over again every time that I step on the training floor.

Please contact me at any time for some great conversations. That is how good relationships begin…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

At the same time, I must point out that Choong Jae Nim C. S. Kim has considerably more experience than you, has worked very hard to make sure his TSD is traditional, and to that end trains at his old school in Korea about once every year or so. For that reason, I'll tend to trust him and look skeptically at anyone who says he teaches incorrect technique (IIRC, he also studied under Grandmaster Hwang Kee).

If you've seen students who are off balance, those are the students who would be corrected by Choong Jae Nim for bad stances. That's all I have to say in regard to that.

In regard to bunkai, henka, and oyo, even if I knew what those were, I don't know if I understand how you still seem to think that only certain human beings have the capacity to understand and to learn. The human body only works in certain ways.

However, with all this said, I feel we've gone very far from the original topic of this thread. Perhaps we should return to discussion of the keema/naihanji hyung?

 

[Makalakumu]

At the same time, I must point out that Choong Jae Nim C. S. Kim has considerably more experience than you, has worked very hard to make sure his TSD is traditional, and to that end trains at his old school in Korea about once every year or so. For that reason, I'll tend to trust him and look skeptically at anyone who says he teaches incorrect technique (IIRC, he also studied under Grandmaster Hwang Kee).

If you've seen students who are off balance, those are the students who would be corrected by Choong Jae Nim for bad stances. That's all I have to say in regard to that.

In regard to bunkai, henka, and oyo, even if I knew what those were, I don't know if I understand how you still seem to think that only certain human beings have the capacity to understand and to learn. The human body only works in certain ways.

However, with all this said, I feel we've gone very far from the original topic of this thread. Perhaps we should return to discussion of the keema/naihanji hyung?

All of this regards Naihanchi and its relationship to TSD.

I'll demonstrate.

When you learned naihanchi, what did you learn that prepared you to learn that form? What did you learn that helped you understand its applications? How was this systemized in the curriculum? What formal methods were used to convey this information?

Look, if you have no idea what bunkai, oyo or henka are, then you've stripped 90% of the depth out of the hyung you practice. This stuff is NOT apparent when you are studying a book (or the internet, I might add) and that is as far as many people went, back in the day.

Anyone can learn this stuff, you just need to be more open to the actual source.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

JT,
At no time did I ever say that;

In regard to bunkai, henka, and oyo, even if I knew what those were, I don't know if I understand how you still seem to think that only certain human beings have the capacity to understand and to learn. The human body only works in certain ways.

I am not a “Super-Human”, nor am I a practitioner that seeks to claim that I am greater then you, Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim or anyone else. What I teach (and what is taught by many in the world martial arts community) isn’t rocket science. I teach these concepts and principles and philosophies to practitioners all over the country and most everyone that I have worked with has been able to understand and put to use that which I have shared with them.

Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim was very close to KJN Hwang Kee when he was in Korea in the early days. I have not only watched ITF members in training, I have Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim’s full video set and have studied the way that he demonstrates and teaches technique. I have also been present to watch one of his seminars that he conducted here in the Dojang of SBN Richard Collins, Jr. several years ago, and as I stated; I spent time on the floor in seminars with KJN Hwang Kee, and have trained directly under KJN C.I. Kim since 1983. KJN C.I. Kim performs to the letter, everything as Hwang Kee taught it.

There are serious differences in what the ITF teaches from what Hwang Kee taught, and you don’t need me to tell this to you. Pick up a copy of KJN Hwang Kee’s book and study it for yourself. I don’t think that anyone to date has written a more detailed book on the execution of technique in any system. KJN Hwang Kee laid out the proper angles for every part of the body, for every technique in HIS system with clear explanations as to how and why they should be performed as such.

We can go on with this subject from now till the end of time, but until you are able to open your mind to what so many of us have already learned and come to understand, this will all be a waste of time. The things that I teach, and that many others now teach as well were never taught in Korea. Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim has most likely never been exposed to these things. If you choose to stay in the “Fog of the Unknown” and hold fast to what you think is right, none of us, my self included has the right to twist your arm. The invitation stands. If you never choose to accept it, I will not be ill-effected, as I already know this stuff.

With this said, I will end my input here in this thread.




Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

All of this regards Naihanchi and its relationship to TSD.

I'll demonstrate.

When you learned naihanchi, what did you learn that prepared you to learn that form? What did you learn that helped you understand its applications? How was this systemized in the curriculum? What formal methods were used to convey this information?

Look, if you have no idea what bunkai, oyo or henka are, then you've stripped 90% of the depth out of the hyung you practice. This stuff is NOT apparent when you are studying a book (or the internet, I might add) and that is as far as many people went, back in the day.

Anyone can learn this stuff, you just need to be more open to the actual source.

What did I learn? I learned that I was going to learn a new form which would challenge me and which would require that I work harder at techniques and maintaining a proper stance. I learned that it required a lot of waist snap and attention to my movements. I learned the movements, what each was, what each does.

The method of my instruction was thus: I was shown the form, in person, by my instructor, and he went over it with me until I got it halfway decent, then let me practice, correcting me all the way. He still corrects me, because I can always improve my technique. I would never want to have to learn a form from a book.

I don't understand why you're talking about this mysterious subject of bunkai, when from what I gather all it means is learning how best to get power out of your moves, which I already learn. If it's some mystical force thing, then sorry, but that holds no water with me.

And a final note to Master Jay: Hwang Kee didn't create TSD. He created the MDK school of training, which, although it is the kwan under which I practice, is still mutable and subject to change. You don't think martial arts are invented in a day, do you?

Anyway, with that, I think *I'll* end my discussion here, since we don't seem to be communicating our respective points.

 

[exile]

What did I learn? I learned that I was going to learn a new form which would challenge me and which would require that I work harder at techniques and maintaining a proper stance. I learned that it required a lot of waist snap and attention to my movements. I learned the movements, what each was, what each does.

The method of my instruction was thus: I was shown the form, in person, by my instructor, and he went over it with me until I got it halfway decent, then let me practice, correcting me all the way. He still corrects me, because I can always improve my technique. I would never want to have to learn a form from a book.

I don't understand why you're talking about this mysterious subject of bunkai, when from what I gather all it means is learning how best to get power out of your moves, which I already learn. If it's some mystical force thing, then sorry, but that holds no water with me.

And a final note to Master Jay: Hwang Kee didn't create TSD. He created the MDK school of training, which, although it is the kwan under which I practice, is still mutable and subject to change. You don't think martial arts are invented in a day, do you?

Anyway, with that, I think *I'll* end my discussion here, since we don't seem to be communicating our respective points.

This is probably going to be futile. But nothing wrong with a bit of futility, so here goes...

You've `gathered' that bunkai is about `getting power out of your moves?' You gathered way wrong. Bunkai means analysis of the movements which a given kata/hyung comprises, to understand what combat move(s) it's encoding. The reason that's necessary is because the language of description for karate-based MA movements makes reference to things like `stance', `block', `punch' and so on which are almost never the actual moves in the combat scenario that that part of the kata is instructing you about—something that Itosu warned us about he devised that misleading form of description at the end of the 19th century. Example: at the begining of Palgwe Sa Jang there is what is typically described as a double block (middle-outward and rising) simultaneously, followed by an uppercut delivered by the rising block arm under the middle-blocking arm, followed by a throat strike from the middle blocking arm. In fact amost none of this description corresponds to the actual intended combat moves. A far better analysis of what moves these movements actually correspond to—the bunkai of this part of the hyung—is provided by some of the better bunkai for Pinan Shodan, which is the source of this sequence. The rising arm deflects upward and traps, a roundhouse thrown at your head; while you knock the assailant's hand upward, you turn your other side toward the assailand, thrust your arm on that side to the other side of his upward deflected arm (the psuedo `middle outward block') and simultaneously crank your `middle block' forearm back while thrusting his now trapped, raised punching forearm around your `middle blocking' arm, by thrusting your `high blocking' arm gripping his punching arm forward—that's what that movement is used for, not and uppercut!—while you press hard on his would-be punching arm and apply leverage, hyperextending his shoulder. A sharp turn of your body and he'd down on the ground, where you can finish him off any number of ways. The bunkai is the reanalysis of the kata/hyung so that you can see past the deliberately deceptive labelling—Itosu's innovation, to get karate accepted in the Okinawan public schools, one he was upfront about. Bunkai deciphers the actual techniques to be applied; the oyo is the application to combat of the new understanding of the work done by the kata movements as interpreted by shrewd bunkai.

It's very clear from you description of how you `learn' a hyung that you've never been taught how to extract the actual combat application of the movement sequences so that you understand what the various possible applications corresponding to the ultra-simplistic move descriptions as `blocks'/`stances'/`punches' are. Of course we have a communication problem: Master Penfil, upnorthkyosa and I are assuming a framework for decomposing patterns into optimal combat scenarios which you clearly are unfamiliar with and, based on your ignorance of this procedure (which was a standard part of karate training when the kata were being created or formalized), you mistakenly assume it to be some `mystical' force or other rubbish having to do with `power generation' (where did you get an idea like that from)? Because—again—you simply don't know what it is, or how to do it. You flat-out don't know that bunkai, oyo and henka (analysis of technique variations) are parts of standard, garden variety traditional karate training; because you apparently can't be bothered to google `bunkai', say, and check out the Wikipedia entry for it or the more than 225,000 entries for it; because, apparently, the part of Master Penfil's post in which he quoted Hwang Kee as saying that Funakoshi himself had never been taught the full bunkai for many of the kata he taught sailed right past you. `Mystical power generation' is the best you could come up with for a standard element of traditional karata kata training?

You bet there's a communication problem, JT.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Sorry, but I can't let that go.

Now that you've explained what bunkai is, you're still wrong about the way I train.

If you're familiar at all with C.S. Kim schools, we train with a series of forms-based sparring drills, where each drill is taken directly from one of the pyong ahn forms. The fact is that I *do* know what I'm doing with each move/sequence. In fact, that's part of how my instructor teaches me a form (and consequently how I show them to my juniors) -- he explains what's going on in relation to what I've just been doing, where my enemy is, and why each move happens where/when it does. If bunkai is just learning what move is doing what, then that's basic to any understanding of a form. Are there really schools that just show you the moves and expect you to do them?

...I take that back - I have seen some schools who do that, and some even in the ITF. I will say, though, that my do jang is not one of those.

Okay, *now* I'm done with this discussion, unless another question about part of the keema hyung comes up for which I have an answer (or part of one).

 

[Chizikunbo]

And a final note to Master Jay: Hwang Kee didn't create TSD. He created the MDK school of training, which, although it is the kwan under which I practice, is still mutable and subject to change. You don't think martial arts are invented in a day, do you?

I dont think Master Penfil made any reference to Dojunim Hwang having created Tang Soo Do, his references were to his system. He specified neither Tang Soo Do nor Moo Duk Kwan. If you are ITF you do not practice Moo Duk Kwan for that matter, you may practice in Moo Duk Kwan lineage but unless you ARE a current member of the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation, you do not practice under the Moo Duk Kwan, and are not Moo Duk Kwan. I am pretty sure Master Penfil did not make any reference to martial arts being created in a day, in fact he did the opposite through a culmination of his posts, he has presented much viable information that you can take advantage of, or not. In any case, you said

although it is the kwan under which I practice, is still mutable and subject to change.

This is what Master Penfil has been trying to get across (

If you choose to stay in the “Fog of the Unknown” and hold fast to what you think is right, none of us, my self included has the right to twist your arm

)
He has presented information that could allow you to progress, change if you will, and through his repeated attempts you shun it, and then argue in favor of it? I have to admit I am perplexed.
I will close by quoting from Grandmaster Robert Trias' last martial arts seminar in 1989 which is profoundly relevent here:

If only you knew what you just dont know, and now I have no time left to help you. Go and seek the knowledge that is being shown today, and if you find somthing you are not doing and belive the new knowledge to be correct, change it.

In this case, this is really the only way to find the true Tang Soo Do!
Yours in the arts,
--Josh

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Josh,
This quote from Robert Trias, Soke was great. Where did you find it? Please forward your source to us all.

In 1972 I was a member of the USKA (United States Karate Association), founded and headed by Mr. Trias. When I lived in Arizona I visited his dojo, but unfortunately, he was not available to receive visitors,

I did meet him briefly at the 1972 USKA Grand Nationals in Parma, Ohio, but at that time I was only 13 and a beginner. I didn’t have the knowledge base, age or rank to be able to engage him in any kind of meaningful discussion.

He was however one of the major pioneers of the martial arts here in the USA. His contributions to the growth of the martial arts in the USA were (at that time) unmatched by anyone that I can recall.



Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[Chizikunbo]

Josh,
This quote from Robert Trias, Soke was great. Where did you find it? Please forward your source to us all.

In 1972 I was a member of the USKA (United States Karate Association), founded and headed by Mr. Trias. When I lived in Arizona I visited his dojo, but unfortunately, he was not available to receive visitors,

I did meet him briefly at the 1972 USKA Grand Nationals in Parma, Ohio, but at that time I was only 13 and a beginner. I didn’t have the knowledge base, age or rank to be able to engage him in any kind of meaningful discussion.

He was however one of the major pioneers of the martial arts here in the USA. His contributions to the growth of the martial arts in the USA were (at that time) unmatched by anyone that I can recall.



Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Hello Master Penfil,
this quote is actually mentioned in a book my very good friend, and teacher wrote, Hanshi Gordon Garland, entitled 'The Art of The Jo, Cane and Te no Euchi'. Hanshi Garland actually fought in WWII with Trias Soke, and later they worked together on the railroad. Hanshi Garland is a master weapons maker, and was one of, if not the first to make kobudo weapons in the states. He also was responsible for introducing the Jo to the US at large through USKA seminars etc. Trias Soke wanted all karate ka to learn the art of the jo, as he had learned about it in his studied in japan. He promoted a student to 4th dan, and sent him to Japan with a letter of reccomendation to learn the art of Muso Shindo Ryu Jodo, when the student returned he walked into the USKA HQ, and announced he had arrived, and obtained a dan ranking, Trias Soke was excited and asked him to show him what he learned, and the student replied that everything he had been taught was a secret and he could share nothing. He was kicked out of the HQ and not allowed to return for many years. Hanshi Garland owned a joint dojo with the student and eventually learned Jo Do from him, and introuced it through means of the USKA...
Sorry for hijacking the thread LOL
--josh

 

[robertmrivers]

To reply to the original question, more info concerning the TSD Naihanchi is going to have to be researched via Okinawan sources...

Naihanchi is an Okinawan kata, therefore anyone on the Okinawan side, either local teachers or even on any of the forums woud be helpful. There are plenty of books on the subject. Watashi no Karate Jutsu by Choki Motobu by his son Soke Chosei Motobu would be a great place to start.

I, and others, can give personal opinions, but it would be more beneficial from your training to find some print sources for your research.

One personal note, though. Many argue that personal development and training can add all of the power you need to the techniques..."the body only moves in so many ways" I believe is the arguement. This is true, but perception within the form varies greatly depending on experience. For example, when you look left, block left and step left...the attack is not coming from the left as many people think... and it is not a block... and it is not a step or stomp...

It is the principles of extracting the true technques that are taught in Okinawa that reveal the true meaning... not repeating the movements 1,000 times and letting the body naturally develop its own timing and power...that is different. If you are still doing a down block and a hook punch against someone while you are against a wall, then you may want to re-think what you are doing...

Also, I don't care how long someone trained in Korea...if the Koreans themselves are not doing it right and have not been doing it right since the dawn of the development of the art, then perhaps you should listen to someone else. Master Penfil knows what he is talking about...

Respects

Rob Rivers
Motobu Ryu

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Josh,
I went on line to look for Hanshi Gordon Garland’s book, entitled
“The Art of The Jo, Cane and Te no Euchi”.
I could not find it anywhere.

Please post the ISBN number and where you purchased it.

If you are able to pick up a copy and send it to me I will send you payment for what ever it costs. Thank you


Sensei Rivers,
Thank you for your input here on this subject…

If you could post the ISBN number for “Watashi no Karate Jutsu” I would appreciate it. I have trained in Motobu-Ha S h i t o-Ryu here in Michigan under Shihan Garner Train since 1997. Shihan Train is an excellent instructor, and trained directly under Soke Shogo Kuniba in his home in Virginia for 15 years. Much of what I teach with regard to Bunkai, Henka and Oyo came from this lineage.

I would enjoy anything written by the Motobu family.

Also, please contact me directly when you have a moment to talk. I would like to get to know you and if possible, get together for some good training…

248-561-5700


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[robertmrivers]

Master Penfil

I lied...Motobu Sensei's publication of his father's book is in Japanese... this is the one I referred. I should have referred Patrick McCarthy's English Translation. I looked everywhere for it and could only find it on McCarthy's web-site:

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/motobu_choki_book.htm


I will give you a call soon.

PS. Should Shihan Train talk about a pain in the a$$ student of his in Virginia, he is probably referring to one Rob Rivers...no relation of course

Rob

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Sensei Rivers,
Did you train with Garner???

He will be here in my dojang/dojo in April for our grand opening!!!

When did you last see him?


I am looking forward to your call...

 

[robertmrivers]

Still Do!!

Primarily in Hakko Ryu (3rd dan). He came down here in July for Motobu Sensei's visit. We try to get up there and bring him down here at least 2 or 3 times a year.

We definitely need to coordinate something. Talk to you soon

Rob