Looking for in depth information on Naihanji Hyungs

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

John,
I have been telling you now for over a year that we need to get face to face so I can take you where you and everyone else here want to be...

I am already there, when will you join me?

As always, the invitation is open. Your place or mine...

Give me a call and set it up and we can put an end to the questioning; you will then have the answers...


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[crushing]

I have some application questions that may vary depending on your organization.

Do you teach the bunkai right away as the student learns the execution of a form, or is the bunkai taught after the student learns the steps of the form? Are whitebelts learning the ki-chos (or whatever your base forms are) taught the bunkai, or does the bunkai come in later in the training after they have an understanding of the basic techniques?

How much 'freedom' (for lack of a better word) do students have to come up with their own bunkai for a technique or set of techniques? It seems that if a class has very many students that it may be easy to spend a lot of time discussing the possibilities.

Thank you.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

JT,
This is the part that very few understand...

In this hyung, the first technique doesn't come after your hands are placed in front of your groin...

The bow "IS" the first technique in the hyung. Any time you begin a hyung with a fancy movement that brings your hands together as in Bassai, Naifhanchi, Shipsoo, and up the line, you are intercepting the aggressors incoming weapon and dealing with it.

In hyung training; every move, every rotation has specific purpose. In what you call "Keema Hyung Cho Dan", when your hands arrive in front of your groin, you already have your opponent in a locking position. You are not in any way, shape of form protecting your groin. If you WERE protecting your groin with your hands in that position you would get all of your fingers broken...

Well, I agree you'd probably want to extend it into a two-handed low block, but I also see your point. Reminds me of a few things my instructors have told me about various special choon bee stances, keema hyung cho dan included. In that particular case, I do seem to recall hearing that it was related to a ho sin sul technique, vaguely like when you cross to go back into chungul jase. The hand-over-hand, in fact, signals that more than anything else. Either way, that means the move right after that is breaking out before setting up the elbow to the forehead, I guess. I can imagine it in my head, at least.

Bunkai = Application of technique
Henka = Variation in application
Oyo = The reverse side of the technique (what is the opponent doing to make you respond...i.e. punch, kick grab, etc.)

Understand these principles and you will see what makes sense and what doesn't.

Thanks. Are those Korean terms, or Japanese? I can't tell.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have been telling you now for over a year that we need to get face to face so I can take you where you and everyone else here want to be...

I would love meet up. It's just a matter of money and time. We live just far enough apart where its expensive to drive and flying isn't worth the cost. In the meantime, I'm still learning by reading why you type and I appreciate that.

...we can put an end to the questioning; you will then have the answers...

One thing that would be helpful is to compare curriculums for our dojangs. I would love to see what the requirements for a hyung/bunkai centered dojang look like.

Here is what mine look like...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34158

 

[Miles]

John,
I have been telling you now for over a year that we need to get face to face so I can take you where you and everyone else here want to be...

I am already there, when will you join me?

As always, the invitation is open. Your place or mine...

Give me a call and set it up and we can put an end to the questioning; you will then have the answers...


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

I have had the privelege of working out once with Master Penfil. It was very educational and he is an exceptional instructional. If you get the chance to do so, you should. He is sponsoring Sensei Morris in May and if Master Penfil says this is going to be a great seminar, you can bet it will be.

Miles
(OK, going back to the TKD threads....

 

[rustyself]

man, i sure get jealous thinking about all you guys training together. i live so far away (mississippi) it would be a miracle to get to goto detroit...

JT, about 2 years ago, i was introduced to TSD, and told of the 2000 year history, etc, etc... Fact of the matter is, some people make it all the way to BB and never research the real history of the arts. alot of what has been stated in this thread was hard to come to grips with for me at first, but i had to, because it is the truth.
that doesnt make TSD any less special to me, indeed, i now know the true lineage of my art, and it makes it even better.

Master Jay, if you took the time to make a dvd series on bunkai, i would be your first customer...

 

[mjd]

I am already there, when will you join me?

we can put an end to the questioning; you will then have the answers...

There is a 1000 and more books, video, clips, ect on Bunkai on the web, a lot of it free, here's the real catch, everybody has a different understanding of what a particular move or technique in all of the Hyungs, in TDS yes we really call them Hyungs not Katas, Bunkai is the hottest Marking ploy going these days, google bunkai and you'll see for yourself. Don't get me wrong, I think it is important to understand indepth the hyungs, lets be real the Questions will never and should never end for anyone, no matter what the rank or history.

Bunkai is like the History of TDS, it has many versions.

Here is one link http://www.downloadkarate.com/index.asp?Sec_ID=156

 

[robertmrivers]

Good Stuff!

The only thing to watch for with the different perspectives on bunkai (it IS OK to have different perspectives on bunkai) is if the bunkai is not historically relevant. For example, many people watch a jujutsu technique...a wrist lock for example, and say to themselves...WOW that looks like this movement from this kata. Students and instructors alike need to be extremely careful with this. Karate is not jujutsu. The historical mentality of a person using karate to defend themselves 300 years ago is different than the person who would be using jujutsu. This is why there are internal principles taught through the dissemination of karate. The principles are different than what you see nowadays during jujutsu classes. However, if you notice that a jujutsu technique resembles the movement from the kata, DEFINITLEY make a note of it. Using the principles, it may be able to be "tweeked" a bit to become a more accurate explanation. I will say that the principles are more similar to koryu (old style) jujutsu (pre-meiji restoration) such as daito ryu or hontai yoshin ryu.

There are a bunch of books out there concerning bunkai and changing perception in general. One is "The way of Kata". This book has a great decision making matrix in it that is a modern development of the internal bunkai principles. The other book to read, if you get the chance...is "My Journey With the Grandmaster" by William R. Hayes. He is a first generation student of Eizo Shimabukuro and really puts into words ways of changing the way you can look at kata. But, as MJD said, there is a lot of marketing involved and everyone now is a bunkai expert with a book. Truth be told...bunkai isn't even the right word...but I am not going to say it or it might be Grandmaster Jim Bob's next best selling book!!

Anyway, let's keep it going.

Master Penfil...I got your message a little late. Please let me know the next time you have a minute. Maybe we can touch base...

Rob

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

I have some application questions that may vary depending on your organization.

Do you teach the bunkai right away as the student learns the execution of a form, or is the bunkai taught after the student learns the steps of the form? Are whitebelts learning the ki-chos (or whatever your base forms are) taught the bunkai, or does the bunkai come in later in the training after they have an understanding of the basic techniques?

How much 'freedom' (for lack of a better word) do students have to come up with their own bunkai for a technique or set of techniques? It seems that if a class has very many students that it may be easy to spend a lot of time discussing the possibilities.

Thank you.

Everyone has their own idea as to when to teach “Bunkai” to a student. This goes along with the question; how much correction should I give a beginning student? Most instructors say that in the beginning you should just let them learn the “general” movement, and not get to deep into proper structure, as it may be too much for them to handle at one time. I believe that the student should learn about proper structure and foundation building technique right from the beginning. If I teach a student to see what his action is being used for and help him/her to establish the ability to “VISUALIZE” what they are doing they will become stronger and more proficient right from the start, and there won’t be as many things to hone out of them in future training.

It is always easier to learn something right the first time and then repetitiously ingrain it into your muscle memory then to learn it wrong, ingrain it into your muscle memory and then have to change it.

Learning the Bunkai right from the beginning affords the student the ability to “Partner Train”, to find out if their structure will hold up or collapse under the pressure of the impact. Again, this is something that is far better understood in person then here in writing.

Well, I agree you'd probably want to extend it into a two-handed low block, but I also see your point. Reminds me of a few things my instructors have told me about various special choon bee stances, keema hyung cho dan included. In that particular case, I do seem to recall hearing that it was related to a ho sin sul technique, vaguely like when you cross to go back into chungul jase. The hand-over-hand, in fact, signals that more than anything else. Either way, that means the move right after that is breaking out before setting up the elbow to the forehead, I guess. I can imagine it in my head, at least.

Thanks. Are those Korean terms, or Japanese? I can't tell.

[/color]

JT,
You missed the description of the two hands coming down to their place in front of the groin…

They are not dropping into a two handed low-block. They are intercepting an incoming attack and performing a joint lock, causing the attacker to find himself on his knees, facing to the right. The next technique (for this particular example) is to drop your weight on his wrist with the cross over step, raise your knee up and through his jaw, step into keema ja sae while stretching his right arm out in order to put his head in the position of you then catching his chin with your right hand and YANKING his head backward into your elbow. The actual contact point on his anatomy with your elbow will be the base of his atlas. This is a fatal blow if contacted correctly.

Bunkai like this one are the reason that Motobu saw this as the only kata that you really needed to learn to be successful in a real confrontation.

These terms are Japanese. These are principles that I learned in Okinawan and Japanese martial arts. I have never been taught these principles in any Korean class. That doesn’t mean that they are not taught in any Korean class, just that I was never taught them in any Korean class.

I would love meet up. It's just a matter of money and time. We live just far enough apart where its expensive to drive and flying isn't worth the cost. In the meantime, I'm still learning by reading why you type and I appreciate that.

One thing that would be helpful is to compare curriculums for our dojangs. I would love to see what the requirements for a hyung/bunkai centered dojang look like.

Here is what mine look like...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34158

Hi John,
Have there been any further talks regarding having a seminar with your instructor or Master Nelson? How is he doing (health-wize)? Please pass along my regards to him.

I am in the process of writing a new Training Manual for my school. I will send you a copy once it is completed.

I have had the privelege of working out once with Master Penfil. It was very educational and he is an exceptional instructional. If you get the chance to do so, you should. He is sponsoring Sensei Morris in May and if Master Penfil says this is going to be a great seminar, you can bet it will be.

Miles
(OK, going back to the TKD threads....

Hi Peter,
Thank you for your kind words here. I also enjoyed our session together and I am looking forward to having you in again when ever you have time.

How is the move coming along to the new location? I think that you have made a wise choice…

man, i sure get jealous thinking about all you guys training together. i live so far away (mississippi) it would be a miracle to get to goto detroit...

JT, about 2 years ago, i was introduced to TSD, and told of the 2000 year history, etc, etc... Fact of the matter is, some people make it all the way to BB and never research the real history of the arts. alot of what has been stated in this thread was hard to come to grips with for me at first, but i had to, because it is the truth.
that doesnt make TSD any less special to me, indeed, i now know the true lineage of my art, and it makes it even better.

Master Jay, if you took the time to make a dvd series on bunkai, i would be your first customer...

Hi Rusty,
We will at some point in the future put out a DVD series, and it will go into depth on all levels.
I have a good friend in Mississippi, Mr. Michael Pope. Do you know him? He is with the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, and trains with Master Kevin Hemphill.

Who are you training under?
What association are you with?

Introduce me to your instructor. Maybe we can set up a training session at your dojang…

There is a 1000 and more books, video, clips, ect on Bunkai on the web, a lot of it free, here's the real catch, everybody has a different understanding of what a particular move or technique in all of the Hyungs, in TDS yes we really call them Hyungs not Katas, Bunkai is the hottest Marking ploy going these days, google bunkai and you'll see for yourself. Don't get me wrong, I think it is important to understand indepth the hyungs, lets be real the Questions will never and should never end for anyone, no matter what the rank or history.

Bunkai is like the History of TDS, it has many versions.

Here is one link http://www.downloadkarate.com/index.asp?Sec_ID=156

MJD,
You are absolutely correct here…

There are thousands of practitioners out there who “CLAIM” to have deep rooted understanding of these principles…

Many of them are legitimate, and can teach you a great deal though their taps, disks and books, if you have a solid foundation by which to work from. However, If you don’t have a solid foundation already in place you will be lost in the process of searching out the truth from the fiction. You will also in many cases be open to injury for yourself, and or your training partners.

These applications are on all levels from easy to extremely complex. It isn’t just a matter of memorizing the general movements. It is also a matter of understanding anatomy, physiology and kinesiology as they pertain to martial application; understanding the ramification of action, etc.

Before you simply order/buy some material and try it… be sure of what you are doing.

Good Stuff!

The only thing to watch for with the different perspectives on bunkai (it IS OK to have different perspectives on bunkai) is if the bunkai is not historically relevant. For example, many people watch a jujutsu technique...a wrist lock for example, and say to themselves...WOW that looks like this movement from this kata. Students and instructors alike need to be extremely careful with this. Karate is not jujutsu. The historical mentality of a person using karate to defend themselves 300 years ago is different than the person who would be using jujutsu. This is why there are internal principles taught through the dissemination of karate. The principles are different than what you see nowadays during jujutsu classes. However, if you notice that a jujutsu technique resembles the movement from the kata, DEFINITLEY make a note of it. Using the principles, it may be able to be "tweeked" a bit to become a more accurate explanation. I will say that the principles are more similar to koryu (old style) jujutsu (pre-meiji restoration) such as daito ryu or hontai yoshin ryu.

There are a bunch of books out there concerning bunkai and changing perception in general. One is "The way of Kata". This book has a great decision making matrix in it that is a modern development of the internal bunkai principles. The other book to read, if you get the chance...is "My Journey With the Grandmaster" by William R. Hayes. He is a first generation student of Eizo Shimabukuro and really puts into words ways of changing the way you can look at kata. But, as MJD said, there is a lot of marketing involved and everyone now is a bunkai expert with a book. Truth be told...bunkai isn't even the right word...but I am not going to say it or it might be Grandmaster Jim Bob's next best selling book!!

Anyway, let's keep it going.

Master Penfil...I got your message a little late. Please let me know the next time you have a minute. Maybe we can touch base...

Rob

Sensei Rivers,
As always, good stuff…

The cell is on 24/7. Call at your convenience…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[Makalakumu]

Karate is not jujutsu. The historical mentality of a person using karate to defend themselves 300 years ago is different than the person who would be using jujutsu. This is why there are internal principles taught through the dissemination of karate. The principles are different than what you see nowadays during jujutsu classes. However, if you notice that a jujutsu technique resembles the movement from the kata, DEFINITLEY make a note of it. Using the principles, it may be able to be "tweeked" a bit to become a more accurate explanation. I will say that the principles are more similar to koryu (old style) jujutsu (pre-meiji restoration) such as daito ryu or hontai yoshin ryu.

I've had the opportunity to train in both judo and jujutsu in the past and my teacher has spent alot of time training in ryukyu kempo and Takeda Ryu aikijutsu. My teacher's knowledge of bunkai came from his studies with Sensei Jack and Bev Gustafson, from which I've benefitted.

With that being said, we've still had to puzzle out alot of this on our own. When you look at my requirement sheet, "interpreting" or "figuring" out the form is what is intended by the entire structure. The bottom line is that we just don't have the lineage to go back to the source. Thus, we are left with the best we can do.

I'm just not at the point where I can start to analyze the mindset between the different arts. I can only try and find some meaning in these patterns that we practice. So, in the terms of this discussion, it would really help if you would compare and contrast the two mindsets. I know that you are worried that some uber-soke is going to step out of the closet and start reusing your words to market their bullshido, but all I can say is that their are a great many more practioners out there, like me, who are sincere and honest regarding their arts and we would really appreciate your perspective.

The cost to benefit ratio is, by far, in our favor, IMHO...

upnorthkyosa

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

JT,
You missed the description of the two hands coming down to their place in front of the groin…

They are not dropping into a two handed low-block. They are intercepting an incoming attack and performing a joint lock, causing the attacker to find himself on his knees, facing to the right. The next technique (for this particular example) is to drop your weight on his wrist with the cross over step, raise your knee up and through his jaw, step into keema ja sae while stretching his right arm out in order to put his head in the position of you then catching his chin with your right hand and YANKING his head backward into your elbow. The actual contact point on his anatomy with your elbow will be the base of his atlas. This is a fatal blow if contacted correctly.

I'm aware of the form (though the knee part is new to me), though your insight is still useful to me. So you're catching the attack between your arms and then twisting, I take it? I think I see that.

Also, I'm not an anatomy major; what's the "atlas?"

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Hi JT,

I'm aware of the form (though the knee part is new to me), though your insight is still useful to me. So you're catching the attack between your arms and then twisting, I take it? I think I see that.

Also, I'm not an anatomy major; what's the "atlas?"

No…
After your normal Chu Bee Ja Sae you then assume Naifhanchi Chun Bee by raising your hands (open like Soo Do position), bring them together and the lower them to the point where the rest in front of the groin in a completed Naifhanchi Chun Bee Ja Sae. That whole action of raising the hands in the open fashion depicts catching and locking the incoming punch and the lowering movement is (via the lock) taking the attacker to his knees.

The next step is the cross-over step. As you perform this step, you bend your knees and drop your center. This action causes the attackers wrist to either be broken, or causes him to be directed in the direction that you want him to go in (to the right). Either way, he will wind up where you want him through “Pain Compliance”.

Your next action is to raise your right knee and step into Keema Ja Sae and throw your right hand out to an extended position. This action is your knee executing Moo Roop Cha Gi to his jaw, and stretching him out in order to give you access to his chin with your right hand. You grab his chin and, as I stated, you YANK him back to you as you strike his ATLAS with your left elbow.

Again, you must understand the concept of “Hikite” (the retracting hand). Tang Soo Do practitioners will usually ignore (in their conscious thought) the right hand and put all of the focus on the elbow. You must retract the right hand, holding him by his chin (jaw) with as much intensity as the elbow that is executing the attack.

This creates balance in your movement and brings him back to your center as opposed to you reaching with your elbow to contact the target.

The Atlas is the point at the base of the skull that attaches the cervical spine to the head. When one is struck at the Atlas with sufficient force, the C-1 vertebra can be severed from the skull and the nerve trunk can be so severely damaged that it will cause death, or in some cases total paralysis.

This is obviously NOT a target to strike if the attack against you is not intended to cause you serious harm. This is the kind of defensive strike that you would use in the case of a life or death situation with NO other options…

There is a book that I have my students purchase from BORDER’s that is always on their “BARGAN” table for $7.99+tax called ATLAS OF ANATOMY. I have used GREY’S AMATOMY for 20+ year in order to understand the human body on a much deeper level, but this book is much easier to make sense of for the non-medical practitioner. It has awesome illustrations that are easy to pick apart in order to better understand what you are striking and how it can and will effect the receiver of your technique.

I suggest that everyone pick up a copy. It is a great teaching tool, and for only $7.99 it’s steel…

P.S. JT, if money is tight and you want to discuss these things on the phone, send me your phone number in a PM or an email and I will call you so you don't incure the cost...


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[robertmrivers]

Upnorth

Kudos to you for doing what you have done. I actually wasn't referring to your research...I was responding to the comment about looking at the mass media concerning bunkai that is available. You should keep doing exactly what you are doing.

Penfil San

I haven't quite figured out how to get something already on DVD format into a mpg or avi format, but, when I do I will post a 10 second clip of Oyata Sensei performing the beginning "saluation" of Naihanchi. I totally forgot about that video (produced in the '80s.) I took my old tape and digitized it so I could watch it on DVD. Anyway, when I show my students this...video of an Okinawan Grandmaster doing precisely what we are talking about here, they realize that I am not making this stuff up!! Sometimes we need to show material like that so that the black belts coming up through the ranks can trust that we are telling them the truth.


If you don't have the video, I will see if I can make a copy. If anyone else wants the video, do a search. It is an old B and W video of Taika Seiyu Oyata doing the Naihanchi kata, Pinan, Passai, and others. I'll see if I can find it somewhere and post the link. If you already have it, then you know what I am talking about!!! This should be required material for the library of anyone looking at taking bunkai seriously.

Regards

Rob

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Master Jay: Ah. Okay, I see. So from the point where you have it locked (completed keema hyung cho dan choon bee), you've got them where you want, then. Cool. I also like the knee to the face while stepping into a stance. I will definitely have to remember that. Good incentive for picking up your feet.

Say you don't maneuver them so that their head faces away from you, though; would an elbow to the nose or in choong also be as effective? That's usually how I visualize it, especially because of pyong ahn sa dan. And I agree that's still only for life and death, since we're talking about il kyock pil sal techniques.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Sensei Rivers,
Thank you for the offer of sending a copy of Oyata Sensei. I have that tape already. I received a copy of it back in 1991-2 (???).

Watching him perform the applications is unique, as he actually practiced on living ukies, these techniques to their fullest extent without care or concern for their welfare. I am not familiar with any other practitioner that took his training in our lifetime to the limits that he did.

JT,
Whenever you have a lock on your opponent that is placed correctly, you can guide them anywhere that you want them to go, and face in any direction that you choose.

Prior to the time that I met with Kaiden-Shihan Garner Train in 1997, like most Tang Soo Do, and for that matter other Karate system practitioners, I thought that I knew what a joint lock was. When I met and began training in Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu with Kaiden-Shihan Train He introduced me to what I have come to understand is correct joint locking technique.

I am certain that Sensei Rivers can elaborate here, as I am only a Shodan in this system while he is a Sandan under the same instructor…

I have to get on the floor to start my 4:30 class…


Have a great day, and have fun playing with this application with a training partner. Just apply the locking techniques with control, as not to cause unnecessary injuries. Joints break real easily if you go too hard.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[exile]

There is a 1000 and more books, video, clips, ect on Bunkai on the web, a lot of it free, here's the real catch, everybody has a different understanding of what a particular move or technique in all of the Hyungs, in TDS yes we really call them Hyungs not Katas, Bunkai is the hottest Marking ploy going these days, google bunkai and you'll see for yourself. Don't get me wrong, I think it is important to understand indepth the hyungs, lets be real the Questions will never and should never end for anyone, no matter what the rank or history.

Bunkai is like the History of TDS, it has many versions.

Here is one link http://www.downloadkarate.com/index.asp?Sec_ID=156

It's true that there's a big market for bunkai analyses—but the reason isn't an artificial need created by some cynical motivational researcher working for a big ad agency. It's the result of a correct perception by a substantial minority of karateka that there is very important technical content in the kata they've learned which they aren't privy to, and which they realize is important to master. To the extent that alternative bunkai for a given kata have real combat-application consequences, there is bound to be disagreement about which are better than others. But that doesn't mean there aren't somewhat objective, measurable guideliness for evaluating them.

For example, Bill Burgar, in his book Five Years, One Kata on bunkai for the Gojushiho kata, argues that it is possible to, as he puts it, `reverse engineer' kata—his characterization of bunkai analysis—in an optimal way by appealing to certain benchmark criteria that could, in principle, be given operational definitions. A bunkai for a given kata subsequence will be higher-valued, from Burgar's perspective, to the extent that it meets the following simplicity criteria maximally:

(i) it is simple to perform under stress;
(ii) it is simple to learn;
(iii) it is simple to maintain;
(iv) it is simple to execute under a wide variety of external conditions.

In addition, bunkai should identify applications which

(1) are proactive (as vs. reactive);
(2) forcibly keep the initiative with the defender;
(3) maximize safety;
(4) maximize redundancy (robust even if initial application is unsuccessful);
(5) works under the influence of a massive adrenaline such;
(6) piggybacks on instinctive behaviors;
(7) takes maximal advantage of the attacker's predictable responses;
(8) unbalances the opponent;
(9) leads, rather than follows, the mental responses of the attacker;
(10) makes maximal use of movement which require little or no practice to stay functional;
(11) operate at realistic fighting ranges;
(12) avoid complex movements;
(13) makes significant use of transferable skills.

Burgar uses this checklist repeatedly in his book in explaining why certain technical interpretations of kata movements, i.e., certain bunkai, are to be preferred over others. There's no mystification involved; the way he presents bunkai analysis, it's basically an engineering problem. There may be different advantages to the relatively small number of bunkai that score high on Burgar's checklist, but the key point is that there are rational bases for rejecting certain kata apps while retaining others.

And all that is indendent of actual experimentation, with practice partners, of alternative bunkai. It's not like we simply have to listen to experts debate the advantages of doing it this way or that way or the other way. Will that block/deflection readily allows a muchimi transition to a controlling lock? Try it out, with a progressively less compliant uke, and see whether you can impose compliance on him/her via the technique. If you can, then it's robust an deserves to be advocated as a high-value bunkai of that part of the kata.

You see what I'm getting at? We don't have to confine ourselves to bemoaning the proliferation of bunkai analyses; we have everything we need at our disposal to check out those analyses or any others we like and come to some plausible conclusions about whether they're really up to snuff...

There are a bunch of books out there concerning bunkai and changing perception in general. One is "The way of Kata". This book has a great decision making matrix in it that is a modern development of the internal bunkai principles. The other book to read, if you get the chance...is "My Journey With the Grandmaster" by William R. Hayes. He is a first generation student of Eizo Shimabukuro and really puts into words ways of changing the way you can look at kata.

For my money, the granddaddy of all the current active research on realistic kata bunkai is Iain Abernethy's Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata (Neth Publishing, 2002). It was very obviously the inspirational touchstone for Kane and Wilder's The Way of Kata, which does, as you say, offer (like Burgar) a set of criteria for evaluating the combat utility of various alternative bunkai for a given kata subsequence. I believe that every book on bunkai of the past half decade is seriously indebted to IA's work. And let's not overlook the tremendous contribution of Rick Clark, whose book Seventy-five Down Blocks is a real tour de force, showing the incredible combat versatility built into kata moves based on the simple, `basic down block' movement.

Truth be told...bunkai isn't even the right word...but I am not going to say it or it might be Grandmaster Jim Bob's next best selling book!!

Awww, c'mon, RMR. That's like telling a joke but refusing to pass along the punch line! What word are you thinking of??

 

[robertmrivers]

#@$% IT EXILE!!

Not only are you making sense but you are calling me out on my super top secret terminology!!!

Just kidding. I can't disagree with anything you said. Spot on. The material I was referring to is, every day I get a link to some youtube video of someone else teaching the "never before seen" secrets of kata from friends, students, and colleagues and it gets a little old. As with the other print material we have discussed, the books you mentioned should also be standard fare in everyone's library. A GREAT point you brought up is...having a technical base to "reverse engineer" kata is almost like cheating. I would recommend everyone get involved with a jujutsu study group to help with their training. I have several jujutsu books that I actually use as reference sources for my karate training. At least attend a seminar somewhere. Upnorth's work should be an inspiration to all KMA's. I think Master Penfil has something in the works...nudge nudge wink wink...

As for the word...it isn't a secret... most of you have probably heard of it or you can find it on any google search. But, the term "tichiki" translates as "what the hands are doing". It is a way of being more specific about the higher level details of the kata. Bunkai works fine...but there are a couple of other words you can use during class to sound like a real kata snob

Just posted another installment on the web-site if you are interested. Makiwara is the topic...sorry ahead of time for the size of it. I couldn't do a session on drills in 2 minutes. I promise...they will be under 3 minutes in the future. www.martialminute.com

Regards

Rob

 

[exile]

#@$% IT EXILE!!

Not only are you making sense but you are calling me out on my super top secret terminology!!!

Just kidding. I can't disagree with anything you said. Spot on. The material I was referring to is, every day I get a link to some youtube video of someone else teaching the "never before seen" secrets of kata from friends, students, and colleagues and it gets a little old. As with the other print material we have discussed, the books you mentioned should also be standard fare in everyone's library. A GREAT point you brought up is...having a technical base to "reverse engineer" kata is almost like cheating. I would recommend everyone get involved with a jujutsu study group to help with their training. I have several jujutsu books that I actually use as reference sources for my karate training. At least attend a seminar somewhere. Upnorth's work should be an inspiration to all KMA's. I think Master Penfil has something in the works...nudge nudge wink wink...

Very sound advice, RMR! In a way, the jj stuff, from what I've seen, makes very explicit certain things that are left implicit in the kata (certain moves establish locks, others lead on to sweeps, etc.).

As for the word...it isn't a secret... most of you have probably heard of it or you can find it on any google search. But, the term "tichiki" translates as "what the hands are doing". It is a way of being more specific about the higher level details of the kata. Bunkai works fine...but there are a couple of other words you can use during class to sound like a real kata snob

This is good to know, RMR, thanks much for the pointer. It's true, `bunkai' has a kind of very general meaning, as I understand it—`analysis', is how I've usually seen it translated, but of course that is far from specific enough to really pin down just what you're doing when you do bunkai on a kata.

Just posted another installment on the web-site if you are interested. Makiwara is the topic...sorry ahead of time for the size of it. I couldn't do a session on drills in 2 minutes. I promise...they will be under 3 minutes in the future. www.martialminute.com

Regards

Rob

This is great stuff, Rob—thanks again!

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

As for the word...it isn't a secret... most of you have probably heard of it or you can find it on any google search. But, the term "tichiki" translates as "what the hands are doing". It is a way of being more specific about the higher level details of the kata. Bunkai works fine...but there are a couple of other words you can use during class to sound like a real kata snob

Man, that just makes me wonder all the more what the appropriate Korean term would be...

Another really cool Martial Minute, Robert. I usually spend most of the time before class starts pounding away at the bags, since (not being an Okinawan martial art) we don't have a makiwara. We do have a rough canvas bag with very little padding left mounted on the wall at punching height, though; I should practice on that more than I do.

I find it interesting (and I'll probably make a separate thread to this effect) that you punch straight on, with the thumb upward. We always train with the twist at the end, so that even though we only punch with the first two knuckles, there's always that twist to get slightly more torque power behind it and to pull/tear the skin as we punch.

I also find it strange that you only practice with one arm for most of that; my school has pounded into my head moving both arms together, to make sure to get a lot of waist twist into an attack. I guess that's not so crucial if it's just conditioning, though...either way, very intriguing stuff.

 

[Makalakumu]

A GREAT point you brought up is...having a technical base to "reverse engineer" kata is almost like cheating. I would recommend everyone get involved with a jujutsu study group to help with their training. I have several jujutsu books that I actually use as reference sources for my karate training. At least attend a seminar somewhere.

I couldn't agree more. There is so much cross over that, once you know what to look for, you'll easily be able to see the analogues. However, and I know this from experience, seeing them and doing them are two very different things. A teacher really helps. The good thing is that judo and jujutsu are becoming fairly ubiquitous.

Upnorth's work should be an inspiration to all KMA's.

Thanks, I can only hope that some of my work can live up to this praise. I kinda see myself as a small fish swimming in the wakes of giants.

I think Master Penfil has something in the works...nudge nudge wink wink...

Sigh. I'm really hoping I can make it out there in April...

As for the word...it isn't a secret... most of you have probably heard of it or you can find it on any google search. But, the term "tichiki" translates as "what the hands are doing". It is a way of being more specific about the higher level details of the kata. Bunkai works fine...but there are a couple of other words you can use during class to sound like a real kata snob

Is there a japanese word for "what the feet are doing?"

Just posted another installment on the web-site if you are interested. Makiwara is the topic...sorry ahead of time for the size of it. I couldn't do a session on drills in 2 minutes. I promise...they will be under 3 minutes in the future. www.martialminute.com

This was a pretty cool video. When I did shotokan, my sensei showed us how to work the makiwara, but since I was a kid, I didn't really get to do it much. I must have a different style then the one you are using. It's strapped up in my basement, so I'll have to get a picture when I can. I'd love to see how you made yours. Or if you bought it, where?