Looking for a Good Katana

[splice42]

I just bought a Bokken(sp)...So I will begin my training with a buddy of mine that has trained in it for a wile...My Sensei dosn't really use swords, and loacally there isn't anyone...Maybe my buddy and I can work things out....Teach ourselves...He has little training, and I have decent kabudo training, so if we go slow, and work things out, do some 1-2-3-4 etc step sparring, I think we'll do well....Your Views?

I think that's ridiculous. Get a sensei that is qualified to teach this, move near one, or just forget about it.

Seriously, have you ever considered how illogical this "I have decent kobudo training, so it'll work out" is?

How about this: I have decent Iaido training, so I think teaching myself jujutsu will work out. Or hey, how about karate? Or anything not Iaido?

IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. Kobudo training is applicable to kobudo. Iaido training is applicable to Iaido. They are totally different arts. Get a teacher, else you're just twirling sticks. They might be japanese sticks, but it's still more twirling and jacking off and not a Japanese Sword Art or anything similar.

 

[splice42]

I own a katana that cost roughly 350-400 dollars; its made well, but by machine, so not trully authentic but is good enough. I've also seen hand made ones that aren't folded as much as others (like only 40-60 times), but are still good run for 900-1500 dollars completed. I would suggest looking around for for some while you save.

Researching a subject like this will prevent you from putting your foot in your mouth when discussing it, and will even benefit you in the long run; you'll have a better idea of what you're looking at and buying.

"folded only 40-60 times" is ridiculous. Katana are folded around 12 to 16 times. If you know your math, you'll know that folding it 16 times results in over 65 thousand layers. 40 times would give you over 1 TRILLION layers, each of which would be thinner than an iron atom itself (by a factor of 100,000 even). Definitely not going to happen.

 

[Grenadier]

"folded only 40-60 times" is ridiculous. Katana are folded around 12 to 16 times. If you know your math, you'll know that folding it 16 times results in over 65 thousand layers. 40 times would give you over 1 TRILLION layers, each of which would be thinner than an iron atom itself (by a factor of 100,000 even). Definitely not going to happen.

That amount can be twice as great, since some folded katanas start out with two bars of different steels.

I would also further add, that folding the metal 40-60 times would end up burning out all of the carbon in the steel, resulting in a soft iron blade, unsuitable for sword use.

The most layers I've seen on the more common katana stopped at 8,192.

 

[TheBattousai]

I get layers and folding confused, sorry about that. *Brain stops
I want a cookie

 

[Walter Wong]

There's a whole thread on self teaching.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29955

Go to this link and scroll down for pics of after effects of self teaching then read the whole thread after.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

Last I heard, the gentleman still hasn't regain full use of his left hand yet.

 

[Sin]

Well now...I understand your concerns for self taught sword training. My friend has had classic japanesse training, so where not going in blind here.

Also TheBattousai has offered to train with me...and I for got to ask him in a PM, if he has had any sword training?

 

[Flying Crane]

Well now...I understand your concerns for self taught sword training. My friend has had classic japanesse training, so where not going in blind here.

Also TheBattousai has offered to train with me...and I for got to ask him in a PM, if he has had any sword training?

But the question remains: "Classic Japanese Training" in What?

The other guys have raised some good points. Iado is a specific art with many subtleties. You definitely need a good teacher, or else you are just waiving your sword around. If you try this with a live blade, you will probably get hurt, or hurt someone else. If you try this with a cheap wallhanger that isn't meant for anything but decoration (i.e. probably anything that costs less than about $1200), then at some point it will break and you will get hurt or you will hurt someone else. This is actually pretty serious. Take some advice from the guys here. They aren't just being a bunch of killjoys. They are trying to help you understand that there is a right way to do this, and then there is a wrong way to do this and the wrong way carries a very high liklihood of someone getting hurt, and with a live blade it can be bad in the blink of an eye.

If you want to own a quality katana, then seek one out and purchase it. But be safe and don't try to really use it until you get the proper training.

 

[Walter Wong]

Sin, I'm curious, what style has your friend trained in that involves sword training? And what style has TheBattousai trained in for him to teach you sword as well?

Here is a post by a legitimate sword sensei's perspective on the self taught or those trying to figure it out:
http://swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=36993&highlight=#36993

Granted Sin, if your friend is instructed in a legitimate sword art and is qualified to teach it to you, then that's fine. If they aren't instructed in a legitimate sword art, it'll be risky not only in learning bad habits, but very dangerous. The real sword arts are dangerous enough. It's even more dangerous for the nontrained to self teach or experiment.

 

[TheBattousai]

I have have a sensai rank in kobujutsu, and I've had extensive sword training with my instructor in the aspects of kenjutsu, battoujustu, iaijutsu, and other forms of sword training (like other than a katana). Sorry I didn't mention this sooner Sin.

 

[Sin]

Well, my friend has trained in Akido and his Akido instructor gave him sword training...Now guys, I'm not some yahoo looking to swing a sharp object around...hence the reason I will be using a bokken a 100% "Wooden" sword...And is only for practice...I don't even plan on buy a Live blade for some time now...I was only asking if TheBattousai had any sword training

 

[kenpojujitsu]

I just bought a Bokken(sp)...So I will begin my training with a buddy of mine that has trained in it for a wile...My Sensei dosn't really use swords, and loacally there isn't anyone...Maybe my buddy and I can work things out....Teach ourselves...He has little training, and I have decent kabudo training, so if we go slow, and work things out, do some 1-2-3-4 etc step sparring, I think we'll do well....Your Views?

If all you want to do is swing wooden sticks at each other then this is fine.
If you truly want to learn Japanese Swordsmanship (Kendo, Kenjutsu, iaido - which ever) the this is a really bad idea.
Why start from scratch with ignore hundreds of years of knowledge?
These are very unique arts and completely different than Kobudo. You will need to learn proper stances, grip and cutting (and drawing, etc if doing iaido).
If you think you are going to stand in a karate stance and pull a bokken out of your obi, the best that will get you is your photo in the baffling budo section of e-budo.com
Think about how seriously you want to learn these arts. If there is no instruction in your area, then find someone who comes to your area for seminars - even if you have to travel some. Most likely you will be able to get with someone before and after the seminar. I am sure you can find someone willing to work with you.
If there are no listings in the phone book, try one of the dedicated sword forums and ask around. You may be surpised.

 

[Sin]

Well, my Friend has had some training, and all I want for now is the basics...and when I find a "actual" instructor, I will continue my training, more in depth.

 

[MSUTKD]

The "basics" can only be learned from a real teacher.

ron

 

[Charles Mahan]

kenjutsu, battoujustu, iaijutsu,

Do you know which styles?

 

[TheBattousai]

Do you know which styles?

I may be misunderstanding the question, but the three I mentioned earlier I have studied extencively (Five years and going), plus others (like the to/broadsword). If I missed the question, just correct me.

 

[Walter Wong]

Sin, if your friend is legitimately trained in Aikido and he does sword work with bokken, then it is likely he is doing Aikiken which is fine. It is good he is not self trained in sword. Does he have a certification or some qualification from his sensei to teach? Just keep in mind that Aikiken is to teach Aikido principles rather than the killing aspect of Japanese swordsmanship. Nothing wrong with Aikiken as this is fine to train with your friend if he is qualified to teach or share with you his Aikiken. It's mostly bokken work so it should be fine to do. Good luck and enjoy.

TheBattousai, I'm still curious like Charles, what style of sword you do still. Kenjutsu, Battojutsu and Iaijutsu are as unspecific as Karate cause there are different styles of Karate. So there are different styles of Kenjutsu, Battojutsu and Iaijutsu. And Battojutsu and Iaijutsu are relatively the samething as they both deal with cutting from the draw. Kenjutsu is fighting with your sword already out of the saya. In some ryu, Iaijutsu is an aspect of certain Kenjutsu arts. Some Iaijutsu/Iaido arts speak of only the first cut is Iai as it's from the draw, then afterwards, the followup cuts after the drawcut is Kenjutsu.
The Toyama Ryu group which have branched off into 3 groups of Toyama Ryu, 2 of them use the Batto term, one group calling themselves Battojutsu the other Battodo. And the 3rd one calls themselves Iaido. But they are relatively doing the samething, just they have different titles. So it makes me wonder why you would say you do Battojutsu and Iaijutsu. Are you studying sword from 2 different ryu-ha that one calls it Battojutsu and the other Iaijutsu?
I see in your profile you mention your Martial studies are Ninpo and Ninjutsu among the other arts you train. Is your sword work from Ninja groups like Bujinkan?

 

[kroh]

Sin,

Where do you live...maybe some of the nihonto-kids on the site can help you find an instructor in your area.

Have you also tried some of the FMA's, CMA's or WMA's for sword training? Also, some jujutsu ryu-ha include the sword as a primary device for training the empty hand, you could also look there. Aikido schools sometimes teach iaido along with the cirriculum (the first Aikido school I studdied in had a Yagyu Shinkage Ryu study group...AwSoMe....too bad I blew out my knee after three classes...:idunno: ).

There are some alternatives that you could try. A good suggestion earlier in the thread is that you could hit the dedicated sword boards and see if there is anyone in your area.

Regards,
Walt

 

[TheBattousai]

Ok, now I see what you mean. I received my training in those forms through the Bukiho Kempo Kobujutsu (weapon principle fist law ancient martial art) branch in my Kempo school. The ultimate goal of the training is the ability to use everything, from a sword to a purse, as an effective weapon. But we use traditional weapons to help show the adaptability needed when using anything at your disposel. But we train in traditional weapons also to preserve the ancient way of training too. But when I say Kenjutsu, Battojutsu, and Iaijutsu; I mean it in a different way. Kenjutsu is like how you explained it (You just have a katana), but with batto and iai; the idea is with batto you draw, cut and cut 1 or 2 more times to slay your foe and then you return the blade to the sheath (after a blood sling ofcourse), in iai its just 1 draw and then the return. I hope this somewhat clearifies things....

P.S. I'm not a ninja....

 

[Sin]

I live in Louisville, Kentucky, if there is anyone near by then please PM me...TheBattousai...hopefully will show me a thing or two.

 

[kroh]

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36011&postcount=3

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39696&postcount=3


Hope that helps...it is a start
Regards,
Walt