Long Form 1 Video Comments Please

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by seninoniwashi, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. seninoniwashi

    seninoniwashi Green Belt

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    Hiya all, I was searching around for a good few videos to help my daughter with Long form 1 and came across this:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=eZh_F2Ii0WI

    Has anyone else seen this out there? What do you think about a higher ranking belt performing Long form 1 like this? What do you all think of how the blocks are executed, primarily the inward and downward?
     
  2. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Take a look at this:
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=DtuNgNMy4jk&mode=related&search=

    Long 1 is the second form thats performed here. Amy is rolling 3 forms together in this clip, however, watch how she does long 1. Do you see differences?

    Mike
     
  3. seninoniwashi

    seninoniwashi Green Belt

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    Thanks for the link - That was the way I learned long 1 as well. The blocks are solid and anchored. Definitely a difference.

    As for the video I initially posted, what was your opinion of the way it was performed? Did you see anything wrong with the blocks?
     
  4. michaeledward

    michaeledward Grandmaster

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    seninoniwashi, I see many things executed differently from the way that I learned to execute them.

    I would not describe what I see as 'wrong', because I am not familiar with the Tracy training. I might suggest that some of the things that I see do not look effective. But, I don't think I would want to go further than that based only on this video.
     
  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I study Tracys kenpo, and this rendition seems quite different from how I have learned it. Some basic concepts and elements look to be missing, but without having a chance to discuss it with the guy doing it, I don't know what he has in mind, so I'll give that benefit of the doubt. But at least initially, I'd say it needs a good deal of work before I'd consider it to be well done.
     
  6. Blindside

    Blindside Senior Master

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    I've seen a tendency in some Tracy folks to extend their motion. This seems to be a particularly exaggerated version of this, feedback from some Tracy folks might be helpful. I'd like to know what training purpose that exageration might serve.

    Lamont
     
  7. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Its very possible that this is how his instructor has the students do the kata. When doing the downward blocks, to me it looked like there was alot of over extension. When I do an inward block, I don't extend my arm out like he was doing.

    Its like I always say about a technique. You can have 5 people do the same technique and you're bound to see 5 slight variations. Does this mean they're wrong? No, just a variation.

    When I perform kata, I keep the blocks more anchored.

    I know we have other Tracy people on here, so it would be great to hear from them as well. :)

    Mike
     
  8. tigdra

    tigdra Green Belt

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    For the first video that was posted ... I have to say that it looks as if either the student is a poor student or as if the teacher is a poor teacher.

    They pattern in which the student performed the form is similar to the version of long one that I learned (I mean with a few adjustments) but that is not what I am trying to critique. The basic foundation of kenpo is not aparent with this student. The blocks are executed poorly; take his upward blocks, the way I learned to do an upwards block was by first doing an uppercut palm facing me and then twisting the wrist outwards (there is more to it than jus this but I am giving a basic run down on how I was taught)

    The individual in this video has his arm bent at the waist level an merely raises his arm up, there is no snap to his block. aside from that there are many flaws in executing an upwards block in that fashion. Additionally a lot of his blocks are performed in such a matter that if performed against an individual could hurt the practitioner.

    Man I hope this student was just being lazy cause it really sucks when teachers allow their students to have such bad habbits
     
  9. Seabrook

    Seabrook Black Belt

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    Amy's form was much more crisp, and her blocks were tighter. Also, Amy's punches were to the center, and she employed the double factor appropriately, whereas the first form performed by the man did not.
     
  10. Jim Hanna

    Jim Hanna Yellow Belt

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    That's an old video of Trevor. It had been up on the San Jose site and Trevor got alittle beat up (like his squeegee upward blocks) He took it in good stride and in humility.

    He seems like the kind of guy that will keep practicing and getting better and better.

    My version of long 1 looks quite different, although the pattern is certainly the same.

    Jim
     
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Thanks, Jim, all we can do is keep working at it.

    I don't like the idea of posting videos myself regardless, but in all honesty I would have been even more reluctant to do so prior to retraining with Ted Sumner. I know I have a better grasp of them than I did prior, but it takes guts and a thick skin to put them up.

    This is really why I think posting videos is often not a good idea. The video is just a single moment in time, and may not represent the best that someone can do. But it gets set into history, everyone looks at it, and makes judgements based on it and that is what is remembered. Nevermind that he may have drastically improved in the mean time.
     
  12. seninoniwashi

    seninoniwashi Green Belt

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    Thanks for your input everyone! I saw the video and just couldn't help getting your opinions and thoughts. Seeing the video it seemed as though it was a completely different style of kenpo being demonstrated - the same movements with different principles. My knowledge of the Tracy faction is VERY limited so I wasn’t sure if this was proper representation.
     
  13. seninoniwashi

    seninoniwashi Green Belt

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    I agree, I think the guy that posted the video is a very brave guy

    Putting yourself out there for that split few moments of captured video is unfair for judgement. I have had stuff like that come back and bite me.
     
  14. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Not bad, just primitive. Ed Parker once said, "too much refinement too soon equals to little progress"
    Sean
     
  15. Wingman

    Wingman White Belt

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    That is exactly the reason why I believe if you're going to film yourself you had best bring your A game. Sure, there is always room for improvement, but, and maybe this is just based on the way I was taught kenpo, and specifically how long 1 is supposed to look.

    Theres a difference between improving post-release of the video, and filming yourself doing the form sloppy (once again, this is assuming the 'ideal' long 1 I see in my mind and try to preform is the same goal he was attempting to achieve).

    For one, I see no reason to extend the inward and outward blocks so far, there is very little power in such an extension.

    I also see no reason for pushdown blocks and downward blocks to begin as high as they did in this example. Why would a block for a low line strike begin at or above your head, when your hands are already on the low line?

    I'm borderline bashing here, but I'm merely making a point that theres nothing wrong with putting yourself into a video. Just make sure you're actually doing what you're saying you're doing, correctly, before ever releasing footage.
     
  16. Wingman

    Wingman White Belt

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    That is exactly the reason why I believe if you're going to film yourself you had best bring your A game. Sure, there is always room for improvement, but, and maybe this is just based on the way I was taught kenpo, and specifically how long 1 is supposed to look.

    Theres a difference between improving post-release of the video, and filming yourself doing the form sloppy (once again, this is assuming the 'ideal' long 1 I see in my mind and try to preform is the same goal he was attempting to achieve).

    For one, I see no reason to extend the inward and outward blocks so far, there is very little power in such an extension.

    I also see no reason for pushdown blocks and downward blocks to begin as high as they did in this example. Why would a block for a low line strike begin at or above your head, when your hands are already on the low line?

    I'm borderline bashing here, but I'm merely making a point that theres nothing wrong with putting yourself into a video. Just make sure you're actually doing what you're saying you're doing, correctly, before ever releasing footage.
     
  17. Jim Hanna

    Jim Hanna Yellow Belt

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    One reason for a downward block and a push down to originate from a high position is to cover any possible low fakes. There are also timing and coordination issues involved.

    When I practice this form I generate my downward blocks from the inward block position (circular, of course). When I execute the push downs I come all the way through the centerline, covering everything--makes sense to me and instinctually feels right.

    Its a matter of personal philosophy. I know that many may disagree, but many also agree.

    Jim
     
  18. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

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    I agree. I also believe in practicing the full range of motion during a form. A downward block is the opposite motion of an outward. One ends where the other begins. In the kata, there is no attack, so assuming that one is blocking a low line attack is not correct.
     
  19. Jim Hanna

    Jim Hanna Yellow Belt

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    One lesson that I have learned from attending large seminars like the GOE is that some masters do things differently from others. Each has his or her own reason. My reasons are sometimes based upon what feels right to me based upon my experience and developed instincts.

    Poet Ralph Hodgson said it best for me:

    "Reason has moons"

    "Reason has moons, but moons not hers
    Lie mirror'd on her sea,
    Confounding her astronomers,
    But, O! delighting me."

    BTW Dave, I tried to e mail you a couple of times and the postmaster can't deliver it for some reason.

    Jim
     
  20. seninoniwashi

    seninoniwashi Green Belt

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    Agreed! I try not to judge - however sometimes there are things we see that are so incredibly different you have to share to get everyone else's thoughts so you know where you yourself stand ;)123
     

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