Purpose of Hand Isolations from Horse Stance in Long Form #1

[kenpoevolution]

Mr. Parker poses the following question on pg. 53 of Infinite Insights into Kenpo #5:

"What reason's would you attach to the blocks and punches that stem out of your horse stance at the end of long form #1?"

I see one possible reason: that the blocks and punches lay out the different methods of execution, and angles of attack for punches and blocks that carry similar purposes.

What other reasons are there?

Thanks.

 

[Michael Billings]

... in Long #2. Hand Isolations are a "Preview of things to come."

Neh?

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... in Long #2. Hand Isolations are a "Preview of things to come."

Neh?

That's what I was always told, they're a preview of things to come in the rest of the forms.

 

[jeffkyle]

Man...I was never told that! I feel left out!

 

[jfarnsworth]

Look at the angles of the punches to see if they coincide with anything else.

 

[kenpoevolution]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Look at the angles of the punches to see if they coincide with anything else.

That's what I was originally thinking... looking for a theme to unite the moves that provide of preview of things we will learn in the future. I agree, the punches show different angles of execution, different levels of penetration, and how to strike our opponent from different ranges.

 

[kevin kilroe]

isolations show-additional related movement, things left out, peviews of coming attractions. the blocks in long 1 isolation show up again in motion in long 2. the punches show something else.
hmmmmmm......

kk

 

[rmcrobertson]

Perhaps the purpose is to connect, not to isolate, the hands and stances...and to begin to teach modifying the ol' horse stance.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I feel the punching at different angles while remaining static with the rest of you body is pointless. Once again I find myself agreeing with Robert. The horse stance should be modified to make the execution of you basics relevant to actual motion you might use in techs and on the street.(that is if I read his correctly) but don't worry Robert when it got down to it I'm sure we could find plenty to argue about.
Sean

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

What's the purpose of throwing blocks and strikes from a horse stance? In order to make their Blocks aesthetically correct most people tend to extend themselves to far. For instance on a Right Inward Block from a horse, most people will block so that the final position of the block has their hand line up with their sternum, and some even block all the way to the opposite shoulder. Some of you are probably saying what's your point, well get into a right neutral bow and block the exact same way, bringing your hand in line with your sternum or even your other shoulder. Does anyone see what I'm getting at here?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yes.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...while I agree that the ideal form should act more as a template than a straitjacket as we advance, the proper inward block from a horse stance moves at a 45-degree angle to bring the fist to the opposite shoulder, the elbow to midline (sternum, in this case), and the fist just below eye-level.

While the fact is that the most-aesthetic move is always the strongest (though not necesssarily the most-appropriate), the reasons don't have anything to do with pure prettiness. They're quite practical; these blocks a) sweep or "squeegee" whole zones, b) if the fist doesn't come across in response to, say, a roundhouse punch or even worse a club, the end of the weapon can whip around after you block and hit you in, say, the head, c) good basics, we all always say, are essential to good kenpo...you might want to consult the "Infinite Insights," books, if you think this is just a simple difference...

Or maybe I'm reading the post wrong...

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I think Mr Kilroe has the correct answer! I know this because he is the one who taught me!

 

[rmcrobertson]

I don't understand this last post: please explain.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

RMR

I was commenting more on the fact that to train your Blocks from a horse stance nurtures a mechanically incorrect muscle memory pattern. Do you perform any of your techniques or sparring attacks from a Horse Stance? Surely not as you would be exposing yourself to a lot of possible attacks, not to mention the stability factor. Now if you were to perform your block in a Right Neutral Bow as you stated earlier (elbow in line with the sternum, hand in line with the left shoulder) then you are sweeping backwards away from the attack and traveling a long distance without any added benefit. Projecting forward on a different angle would still protect your body and all you to continue with a higher degree of fluidity, speed, and power. By Blocking with your arm at a 90 degree angle to your chest (as opposed to the 30-40 degrees that occurs with your method) you still have the opportunity to utilize both the upside or downside of the circle to continue your striking, or you can just hammer the hell out of the attackers arm. However, such blocks don't look as aesthetically pleasing from a horse stance, but since we don't fight from a horse stance who cares. This seems to be another one of those traditional excercises rather than a tool that helps facilitate student understanding and execution.

Just my thoughts, I enjoy conversation so feel free to chime in if you don't understand or agree.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Pleasse explain exactly what a, "mechanically incorrect muscle memory pattern," might be, and exactly why this particular pattern would be, "incorrect," in those terms.

I actually wrote that the block occurs on a 45-degree angle, which is correct. Blocking only at the 90 either a) leaves one side unprotected, as I noted, or b) means that you're encountering the strike very late and relying upon being able to deflet a strike that has passed apex.

I might also mention--as I did previously--that the movement to the 45-degree block includes the blocking angle that you appear to have in mind. Which is part of what "Star Block," Blocking Set 1, teaches...

I don't understand where you're getting this blocking theory from. It certainly isn't Mr. Parker's descriptions of blocks, which are rather explicit...check "Infinite Insights."

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

If you were to perform a block from a Neutral Bow in the same manner as you would from a horse stance

the proper inward block from a horse stance moves at a 45-degree angle to bring the fist to the opposite shoulder, the elbow to midline (sternum, in this case), and the fist just below eye-level.

then you would be making some seriously unnecessary travel distance (which increases weapon flight time), plus you are blocking away from the incoming weapon. If this is not how you would block from a neutral bow then you are committing to muscle memory an action which is only useful in a horse stance and since we never fight an opponent head on in a horse stance the ingrained motion is useless.

Here is a really overexaggerated example of what I'm talking about. Stand in a RNB facing 12. Lift your hand up by your right ear and hammer so that your arm rests such that sets perpendicular to your chest. Your Hand should be resting at 10-10:30. Even this is to far but will work for the example.

I think Star block is great, and should be taught from a horse stance until the student reaches yellow or at the very latest orange belt. Beyond this the student should be learning to perform things from their fighting stance. Developing useless or unnecessary muscle memory should be avoided if possible.

This is from Parker.

Hopefully this answers your questions, please let me know if it does not.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In the first place, I see you're still skipping over the point about the block's "sweeping," out an area, as well as the point about hooking or roundhouse strikes.

I'd add that it isn't, "useless muscle memory," for exactly these reasons. Where do you put, say, the inward blocks that start Thrusting Lance in Form 6? Or please look at, "Infinite Insights," vol. 3, pages 48-9, where Frank Trejo is demonstrating inward blocks in several different stances...elbow at midline, fist to opposite shoulder...or is he doing them wrong?

I'd also note that absolutely nothing I wrote precludes blocking in a neutral bow. Your general point about moving on towards, "sophisticated basics," is quite true--but that doesn't mean you change the basics, it means you do more with them.

And generally, "never," is a very long time. There are certainly techniques that use a horse or side horse stance...and incidentally, the exercise you describe is the start of Short Form 1, if I'm reading correctly.

What you're missing, among other things, is that a block may pick up a strike anywhere along its arc. Which changes the idea of, "travel time," quite a bit. But if you train with the sort of incomplete basics you're advocating, the block won't work.

 

[Michael Billings]

Can you imagine any circumstance when you have to execute the block and are not in a neutral box or "fighting stance". Sure, lots of them: up against a wall, in a crowded room, at a hocky game (crowds again), how about sitting down or laying down.

Practice in the horse allows for practicing full range of motion, in the ideal phase, which can be translated into other scenarios, stances, or situations. The practice of the blocks, strikes, or punches in the horse allows us to isolate the double factor, opposing forces, and numerous other principles (everything from pinpointing, to fitting, to settling, etc.)

Practice them in all ways and stances. After all, they may be strikes or breaks at some point. You may not have the luxury of knowing the "fight is on" and have to respond immediately and intuitively.

"Do not think dishonestly"
"The Way is in Traning"
"Become acquainted with every Art"
"Pay attention even to little things"

Apply this to your Kenpo. You are never wasting time when doing basics, so why begrudge doing them in several stances or scenarios ... INCLUDING Long form 1.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

RMR:
In the first place, I see you're still skipping over the point about the block's "sweeping," out an area, as well as the point about hooking or roundhouse strikes.

Perhaps you can follow me around the Clock. You are in a RNB with your feet on either side of the 12:00-6:00 line. You are facing 12. The inward hammerfist, for the purpose of this example, begins up by the right ear (approx 1:30 ). The inward block then sweeps through and across to 10:30 or 10:00. This is certainly more than enough of an arc to cover any attacks from an opponent in front of you. To continue through as you suggest, to the left shoulder, has your hand sweep to 8:30 or even 8:00 which essentially has you moving away from the incoming strike.

Or please look at, "Infinite Insights," vol. 3, pages 48-9, where Frank Trejo is demonstrating inward blocks in several different stances...elbow at midline, fist to opposite shoulder...or is he doing them wrong?

While I don't have a copy handy, it's been my experience that in most cases movements and positions are exaggerated for the benefit of the reader/viewer. Also it should be noted whether or not Mr. Trejo is demonstrating the basics of the Star Block that would be taught to a beginner (white, yellow, orange belt). The Infinite Insights were written as a primer to the concepts and ideas of kenpo and were not meant to be exhaustive, were they not?

In a tech like Taming the mace in which you are up against a wall I simply parry the attack past my center line (which is just to the right of my nose not my shoulder) where I then trap and collapse with the right hand. There is no need to parry or block all the way to the right shoulder, this is unnecessary travel time and bad mechanics. To do so will slow you down, increase the radius of your circles, which subsequently decreases the efficiency of your kenpo.

Can you imagine any circumstance when you have to execute the block and are not in a neutral box or "fighting stance". Sure, lots of them: up against a wall, in a crowded room, at a hocky game (crowds again), how about sitting down or laying down.

While I agree that there may be a handful of circumstances that you may find yourself caught off guard, especially if you have no concept of environmental awareness. Few fights come totally out of the blue, generally there are some preceeding indicators whether it is a verbal assualt, physical shove, a menacing look, or just a bad feeling about something. Also if you are up against a wall before the fight even starts you've done something seriously wrong. That's not to say you can't get thrown against a wall during the course of a fight but can you honestly say that your first recourse of action is to drop into a horse stance and block the incoming attack? Their are not any techniques, at least that I'm aware of, that have you facing 12:00 with your feet on the 9:00- 3:00 line defending an attack.