Short Form 1

[Blindside]

Isn't that doing both sides?

Also, what are all these elbow strikes? this is CRAZY-different from the version I was taught.

Sam, think of every time you chamber your hand at your waist, you are actually doing an elbow strike to the rear. Same thing, different perspective.

Also some AK schools will do a form on both sides, so you would start Short 1 stepping back with the left foot, after completing the form they would do the opposite, by performing the form again by stepping back with the right on the initial motion.

Lamont

 

[michaeledward]

Isn't that doing both sides?

No.

There are two inward blocks at the beginning of the form, but that does not equate do "doing both sides". We can see this if we look at the position of the blocking hand just before the block.

In step 1, you are in a medatative position with your left hand over your right fist. Your right hand (the blocking hand) is up. When we actually begin to move in the form, the right hand should move from that 'point of origin' position directly to the inward block position. This is called a "right, hammering, inward block". 'Hammering' is the method of execution.

In step 2, your left hand (the blocking hand) is down, cocked at your hip. (correct?) As we make our second move, the left hand moves from its 'point of origin' from the left hip, up to the left inward block position. This is called a "left, thrusting, inward block". 'Thrusting is the method of execution.

To properly "do both sides", you would need to do both a: 'left, hammering, inward block' and a 'right, thrusting, inward block'.

Does that make sense? Can you think of any other actions in the form that would be different if you were to start by Stepping back with your right foot?

Also, what are all these elbow strikes? this is CRAZY-different from the version I was taught.

Maybe not ... sometimes in American Kenpo we talk of dual action, or action within action. Often, when we begin to learn some of the moves in the form, our teachers deliberately choose not to point out some information, so that we do not become 'overloaded'.

There is always time available to revisit earlier information, and better define what is there, better explain what is there.

 

[MJS]

Isn't that doing both sides?

Also, what are all these elbow strikes? this is CRAZY-different from the version I was taught.

Start from a meditating horse stance facing 12 :00.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]1. Drop your left foot back to 6 :00, into a right neutral bow while simultaneously delivering a right inward block and a left back elbow strike.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2. Drop your right foot back to 6 :00, into a left neutral bow while simultaneously delivering a left inward block and a right back elbow strike.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3. Turn to face your next imaginary opponent at 9 :00. Step with your right foot to 3 :00, into a left neutral bow, while simultaneously delivering a right inward block followed by left outward block and a right back elbow strike.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4. Drop your left foot back to 3 :00 into a right neutral bow while simultaneously delivering a left inward right outward block combination and a left back elbow strike.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]5. Turn to face your next imaginary opponent at 3 :00, moving your right foot forward to "cover." Settle into a left neutral bow while simultaneously delivering a right high inward block followed by a left upward block and right back elbow strike.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]6. Drop your left foot back to 9 :00 into a right neutral bow while simultaneously delivering a left high inward block followed by a right upward block and left back elbow strike.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]7. Turn to face your next imaginary opponent at 6 :00, drawing your foot up to a transitional cat stance, executing a left inward downward block palm up (active check). Step back with your left foot towards 12 :00, into a right neutral bow, while simultaneously delivering a right outward downward block and left back elbow strike.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]8. Drop your right foot back to a 12 :00, into a left neutral bow, while simultaneously delivering a right inward downward block palm up, followed by a left downward outward block palm down and right back elbow strike.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]9. Step clockwise with your left foot to 12 :00, returning to a meditative horse stance, thus returning to point of origin.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Repeat on opposite side.

[/SIZE][/FONT]

The 'other' side, is the mirror image of the first. Think about it like this. You and I are facing each other. I begin the form the way it is written above, stepping back with my left leg first. You mirror me, by doing the complete opposite, with you stepping back with your right. Now, doing this form solo, on both sides, it would be the exactly the same as if you were standing in front of me.

You mention that this version is different from yours. How do you perform this form? Is it basically the same with the exception of the elbows? Also keep in mind that there are many different instructors out there. We could have 5 people do the same technique, and there is a good chance there may be a slight variation in all 5. Take a look back at some of the technique discussions that I've started. You should see the variety of ways people do the techniques.


Mike

 

[Sam]

Well, from your prospective then, we only do 1/2 the kata. I've never heard of a hammering inward block.

A very basic description of the way we do it is:

Step back left hardbow, right inward block
step back right hardbow, left inward block
Step right to 3 o clock hardbow left outward block
step back left hardbow, right outward block
adjust right foot up as you pivot hardbow left upward block
step left foot back hardbow right upward block
adjust left foot forward square horse stance coverall block right downward block
Bring right foot behind you til your standing in the exact same spot only facing the other wall, coverall block left downward block
step left foot to 9 o clock sq horse stance, bow out

as you can see, we only do it off of one side. The version originally posted would be very repetitive... long 1 even more so if done in the same fashion.

 

[Blindside]

No.
There are two inward blocks at the beginning of the form, but that does not equate do "doing both sides". We can see this if we look at the position of the blocking hand just before the block.

In step 1, you are in a medatative position with your left hand over your right fist. Your right hand (the blocking hand) is up. When we actually begin to move in the form, the right hand should move from that 'point of origin' position directly to the inward block position. This is called a "right, hammering, inward block". 'Hammering' is the method of execution.

In step 2, your left hand (the blocking hand) is down, cocked at your hip. (correct?) As we make our second move, the left hand moves from its 'point of origin' from the left hip, up to the left inward block position. This is called a "left, thrusting, inward block". 'Thrusting is the method of execution.

To properly "do both sides", you would need to do both a: 'left, hammering, inward block' and a 'right, thrusting, inward block'.

But don't you pick up a "left, hammering, inward block" in other places in the form?

From my perspective, I don't really see the point in doing all forms on their opposite side. It may be an interesting intellectual exercise, but I don't think I'm losing motion that isn't covered elsewhere. I'd rather spend my limited training time on other aspects of kenpo.

Lamont

 

[michaeledward]

But don't you pick up a "left, hammering, inward block" in other places in the form?

From my perspective, I don't really see the point in doing all forms on their opposite side. It may be an interesting intellectual exercise, but I don't think I'm losing motion that isn't covered elsewhere. I'd rather spend my limited training time on other aspects of kenpo.

I'll answer a question with a question .... Is there a difference in executing a 'left, hammering, inward block' as a minor move, rather than a major move?

The only form we execute on both sides, as a matter of regular training, is Short Form 1. As a thought exercise, we will occassionally perform Long 1 on the other side (where is the extra move?).

Well, from your prospective then, we only do 1/2 the kata. I've never heard of a hammering inward block.

A very basic description of the way we do it is:

Step back left hardbow, right inward block .......... hammering block because the arm starts from the up position
step back right hardbow, left inward block ......... thrusting block because the arm starts from the down position

Sam, again, No. From my perspective, Short Form 1 teaches (at its most basic), eight front hand blocks while retreating: Inward, Outward, Upward, Downward. But, as we look at the form beyond its most basic application, we can begin to see other pieces of information that could prove to be useful.

Many schools do not perform the 'Other Side' of this form, because the 'Other Side' of this form is hidden within the ending of Long Form 1. (Hidden in plain sight actually).

 

[Touch Of Death]

So you're saying that the first form you learn should teach you how to defend against a mass attack, but it doesn't contain any offensive movements. I guess that's one perspective, however I thought it was supposed to teach you basic footwork and blocking applications, as the very first form with 'mass attack' being far from what you should be doing or thinking about.

So a mass attack should the furthest thing from our minds in short one? got it. I see plenty of offensive application myself. What is the fundamental difference between offensive motion and defensive motion?
Sean

 

[Sam]

Michael Edward: Wait, what are you saying no to? You didn't quote a question... you quoted a statement.

No, my statement is wrong?

 

[michaeledward]

from your prospective then, we only do 1/2 the kata.

No, from my perspective, You are doing the complete Short Form 1.

I do note, that some schools (including mine) do the complete Short Form 1 on the other side as well.

I've never heard of a hammering inward block.

I am confident that you are actually executing a 'hammering' inward block, even if you are unfamiliar with the term. I don't think I heard the term until I was a green belt.

If you start Short Form 1 from a meditative position, the first move is a right hammering inward block. Your right hand makes a motion similar to pounding a nail with a hammer.

If you start Short Form 1 from a training horse stance, the first move is not a hammering inward block (and you are starting the form from a non-traditional starting point).

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, from my perspective, You are doing the complete Short Form 1.

I do note, that some schools (including mine) do the complete Short Form 1 on the other side as well.



I am confident that you are actually executing a 'hammering' inward block, even if you are unfamiliar with the term. I don't think I heard the term until I was a green belt.

If you start Short Form 1 from a meditative position, the first move is a right hammering inward block. Your right hand makes a motion similar to pounding a nail with a hammer.

If you start Short Form 1 from a training horse stance, the first move is not a hammering inward block (and you are starting the form from a non-traditional starting point).

What is the fifference between hammer and thrust?
Sean

 

[HKphooey]

Remember we are teaching this to beginners... I think 20 students just walked out the door. We can debate this form until be a blue in the face. Heck I have gotten lots of great ideas from this thread for my own training and for advanced belts. But I do not think I would go into so much detail when teaching a beginner.

Do most of you teach a white belt this much detail or is this just for your uppere belts? Just curious.

Once again... I have gotten some great viewpoints from the post.

 

[michaeledward]

What is the fifference between hammer and thrust?
Sean

Simple answer = "Point of origin".

• Hand up = Hammering Inward Block
• Hand down = Thrusting Inward Block

More complex answer (adding references)

You see a similar reference at the end of Long Form 1 & Long Form 2; when the palm up block, palm down block, and push downs are added to the series.

• Hand down = Palm Down Block
• Hand up = Palm Up Block

P.S. HKPhooey - I do not train students (still a student myself), but with a new student, they learn the series of eight front hand blocks while retreating; Inward Outward Upward Downward. Much of the rest comes later.

 

[Michael Billings]

In either case you are citing Methods of Execution, as noted in Infinite Insights. I do both sides of the form, and insert the checks also Sam.

To make it easier, you just do not cock the Inward Block. It comes from Point of Origin each time. The first time using a neutral bow, but the (maybe) more familiar and stronger HAMMERING Method of Execution.

The next one you step back into a twist stance, which affords more power from the rotation available. So we can execute, what for the beginner may be a "weaker" block, the THRUSTING Method of Execution with the Inward Block.

It does not get more complicated, just more sophisticated as your level of understanding increases. Keep asking the questions and file them away for future reference as you progress.

Respectfully,
-Michael

 

[Carol]

Remember we are teaching this to beginners... I think 20 students just walked out the door. We can debate this form until be a blue in the face. Heck I have gotten lots of great ideas from this thread for my own training and for advanced belts. But I do not think I would go into so much detail when teaching a beginner.

Ahhhh you are touching on something that rubs me a little raw, HKPhooey.

Beginners are not necessarily stupid people. They may not be well versed in MA, but that does not mean they do not have the capacity to learn. They may not know the language or the terminology the same way an upper belt does, but that does not meant that the student is not capable of absorbing the amount of detail when taught properly.

There is no one-size-fits-all approach to learning, and one certainly has to take in to account the demographics of your actual students.

But...I think I speak for more than one New England beginner when I say that there are many of us with a solid education and demanding occupations. We have brain power. We may not know what an axe kick is when we first walk through the door of your studio, but we use our brains for a living, and we have a rigorous capacity to learn. Everyone's mileage may vary, but I betcha teaching can be more rewarding for the instructor as well as the student when that potential is tapped in to...instead of minimized. :asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Not to jump to someone else's defense, but it is not a matter of brains or intelligence, or the combination of using both. It is more a matter of volume of material, learning theory has something called interference, which we see a lot in beginning students, and it is always a challenge to gauge the level of the class and teach just a little more than they can absorb.

They can see how to get there, but if I executed my techniques or forms at speed, I get the most amazing "huh" looks from my students, including Brown Belts. They see it, but cannot figure out how to get there. There are many levels of learning the same thing, and I think it is not a matter of withholding anything. My biggest criticism of myself is I let my own enthusiasm overwhelm my students with the subtlies of any given technique, when maybe I should teach a base which you can test with, then add to it as they can. But always keep the material available for those who are ready to add another level of sophistication to their movement, or application of any given technique or form.

Does this make any sense at all? It definitly applies to Short Form #1 as I teach it to kids or beginners, and what I expect of my more advance belts. They do essentially the same thing .... the difference is in how they do it.

-Michael

 

[HKphooey]

Ahhhh you are touching on something that rubs me a little raw, HKPhooey.

Beginners are not necessarily stupid people. They may not be well versed in MA, but that does not mean they do not have the capacity to learn. They may not know the language or the terminology the same way an upper belt does, but that does not meant that the student is not capable of absorbing the amount of detail when taught properly.

There is no one-size-fits-all approach to learning, and one certainly has to take in to account the demographics of your actual students.

But...I think I speak for more than one New England beginner when I say that there are many of us with a solid education and demanding occupations. We have brain power. We may not know what an axe kick is when we first walk through the door of your studio, but we use our brains for a living, and we have a rigorous capacity to learn. Everyone's mileage may vary, but I betcha teaching can be more rewarding for the instructor as well as the student when that potential is tapped in to...instead of minimized. :asian:

Not intended to be a blanket statement. I tailor my instruction to the student. If I think the studnet can absord more material and information, I will teach it.

In reading many of your posts, I would say you are someone that is eager to learn and quickly understand many of the concepts.

Sorry if my comments were misinterpruted.

Mr. Billings, thank you for you post.

 

[Monadnock]

What is the fifference between hammer and thrust?
Sean

To piggyback on MichaelEdward's answer a bit, Hammering generally travels downward, or a "thrust" in the downward direction.

It also uses the elbow in such a way as to mimic "hammering."

Not that you can't hammer horizontally or upward in the construction business, but as far as Parker Kenpo, I think the term was more limited to downward strikes/blocks in that fashion.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Ahhhh you are touching on something that rubs me a little raw, HKPhooey.

Beginners are not necessarily stupid people. They may not be well versed in MA, but that does not mean they do not have the capacity to learn. They may not know the language or the terminology the same way an upper belt does, but that does not meant that the student is not capable of absorbing the amount of detail when taught properly.

There is no one-size-fits-all approach to learning, and one certainly has to take in to account the demographics of your actual students.

But...I think I speak for more than one New England beginner when I say that there are many of us with a solid education and demanding occupations. We have brain power. We may not know what an axe kick is when we first walk through the door of your studio, but we use our brains for a living, and we have a rigorous capacity to learn. Everyone's mileage may vary, but I betcha teaching can be more rewarding for the instructor as well as the student when that potential is tapped in to...instead of minimized. :asian:

Carol, I don't think it's a matter of brain power. Beginners can be overloaded with too much information. Learn the basics before you add the fancy frills. As a personal example I find that after I learn a form I try to tweak the details and inevitably I get lost again. It's one of the things I love about Kenpo, every time I go back through the system there is more to learn, and I can see things I didn't understand the first time through.

Jeff

 

[Touch Of Death]

To piggyback on MichaelEdward's answer a bit, Hammering generally travels downward, or a "thrust" in the downward direction.

It also uses the elbow in such a way as to mimic "hammering."

Not that you can't hammer horizontally or upward in the construction business, but as far as Parker Kenpo, I think the term was more limited to downward strikes/blocks in that fashion.

What do points of reference have to do with hammer and thrust?

 

[Monadnock]

What do points of reference have to do with hammer and thrust?

Everything and nothing I guess... :idunno: