Lone Kimono technical question

[warriorsage]

I have seen Lone Kimono (LK) done many different ways, with a wide variety of weapons and targets (as is the case with just about every technique in modern kenpo). But the main variation I've noticed deals with the second strike or the downward one which follows the upward block/strike to hyperextend/break the arm. I was taught to hit at the bend of the arm or just above it and strike mainly downward (and only slightly diagonally). The effect of which is to pull him forward and bring his head down. I was also taught to try to maintain the hand pin during the entire technique.

The major variation I've seen is making the second strike go more diagonal to knock his arm away and across his body. I can see a few advantages of this approach, but one of the main disadvantages I can see is that it possibly turns his body away and forces you to launch the handsword over his shoulder. This seems difficult unless you are taller or somehow get him to drop a bit with that strike. I wasn't taught it this way, so I don't know firsthand what the plus and minuses are. Any thoughts? Salute!

 

[Kirk]

I was told both ways, by 2 different assistant instructors. With
the latter (making the second strike go more diagonal to knock his arm away and across his body) I was told that it was so that
when you come back with a handsword, the attacker's adam's
apple is in the perfect position for your handsword to do the most
damage. I was told the first tech was to focus on really jacking up
that left arm. So if he's taller than you, hurt his arm, if he's your
height, crush his larynx hehehe.

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by warriorsage

I have seen Lone Kimono (LK) done many different ways, with a wide variety of weapons and targets.../QUOTE]

As always, with our style being a bit break-away I'm not sure what the official EPAK one looks like. The second strike in ours (after the deep step back and the upwards extended block) begins life as an inwards block, but the fist is brought from the right hand side down to the left hip, pushing at the elbow joint. This bring the opponent's chin down next to your hand, so that you can easily cup it and then break the neck, which is the official (well, ours anyway...) ending to the technique.

The 'street' ending (non-lethal alternative) we practice is to have a hooking elbow on the end instead of the neck break.

Ian.

 

[Seig]

To blatantly steal someone else's information....
To know a technique you should be able to do 20 different variations on it and yet remain true to the technique. You can change the targets and/or change the weapons, but if the key movements/principal is still there, it is still the same technique. I am sure at least one of you can expound upon that much better than I just did.

 

[Sigung86]

Saw a demonstration of this technique by Ed Parker on a tape I have here somewhere. He brought the second strike down and to his left side (sort of 6:00 - 6:30ish) and pulled the guy down and toward him, with a whipping motion. That opened up the attackers chin, throat, neck, and his upper center line.

Doing the same technique in Tracy's (called, curiously enough, Kimono Grab) I teach it much the way I saw Ed Parker do it. It puts the attacker's arms down and in front and pulls his whole upper body forward with a whipping action. Now! We only need about 96 or so more variations! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan

 

[jfarnsworth]

In our school we teach the second move where the right arm is slightly above the left elbow. Next execute a frictinoal pull on the left arm on a downward diagonal line. This move checks the height & width zone simultaneously and also gives an excellent open line of sight for the handsword to the throat. The arm travels from 2-8 and you don't want to execute that move too hard as the person will turn and you won't get the desired angle.
Just 1 more way to do it. I think there's 95 more to go.
Jason Farnsworth

 

[brianhunter]

so with the different ways of doing this how do people do twin kimono????

 

[jfarnsworth]

Move yourself off line in this technique.
Jason Farnsworth

 

[Goldendragon7]

LOL

One at a time guys!!
:asian:

 

[Seig]

How about this, we start at the beginning, pick one a week and just all of us knock our ideas around.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Cool, let's start at the beginning at work our way up. Who wants to lead the pack with Delayed Sword? Here's another question does anybody really do Darting Leaves as a technique or was that just a transition move in form 4 and someone gave it a name?
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

 

[Goldendragon7]

a "Form" Technique....... same as Broken Leaves, Pinning Wing, & Controlled Wing.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Ok, I'll start. I realize that "I" do it is a slight variation:
1.) Step back with the left foot into cat stance while executing a right outer forearm block, left hand should be checking at the face palm out(in case the beginner misses the block).
2.) Utilizing a four knuckle rake, in a hooking motion, rake the radial nerve from point of block to wrist.
3.) Bring the right hand up by the left ear as you execute a right front kick to the (groin, bladder or groin depending on flexibilty level)
4.) Utilizing Marriage of Gravity, plant your right foot between the attacker's feet and execute a 45 degree outer handsword to the junction of the attacker's neck/collar bone.

 

[Sigung86]

Hey Seig! I do a variant, just like you ... Mines even worse though... It is tracy's with the AK/SL-4 motions.

-- Delalyed Sword --

Front – Right Hand Lapel Grab

From natural stance facing 12:00
S1. Step left foot to 6:00 to a right forward bow stance
S1. Hands up in a submissive gesture

S2. Pivot to a right neutral bow
S2. Right inward/downward strike to upper right biceps of
attacker’s arm
S2. Left pin/strike to attackers right hand to your lapel

Note: This is employing the fitting principal to the bend of the wrist a.k.a. here as interlocking circles.

3. Slide your left foot forward to a point behind left foot

Note: This creates forward body momentum as you fuse your fight arm to control his depth at the shoulder level

4. Right front snap Gauging kick to attacker’s groin/bladder/lower mid-section

While knee is still in air, after kick use your right knee as a depth check, and raise your right hand for the next strike.

5. Plant your right foot to a right neutral bow facing 12:00
5. Right outward diagonal downward hand sword strike to
right side, middle of your attacker’s neck.
S5. Left slap check to right shoulder

S6. Leave your right sword hand in place as a positional check
S6. Right crossover toward 6:00 and cover out facing your
attacker in a neutral bow.


Dan

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Mines even worse though... -- Delalyed Sword --
3. Slide your left foot forward to a point behind left foot

Chape'l's stuff is just too left footed for me....! :rofl:
:asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Chape'l's stuff is just too left footed for me....! :rofl:
:asian:

WassamattaU? Can't you dance around on your left foot?

OK! Left up to and behind the right! There! Feel better????

I am now going to go and beat my proof reader!

Take care, be well and go clean your glasses!

Saintly Uncle Dan:rofl:

 

[Goldendragon7]

but who wants to..... lol
:rofl:

:asian:

That one we will have to save for KenpoPalooza!
:rofl:

 

[clvlkenpo]

As mentioned there is no wrong way to do a technique unless you violate the rules of motion or logic. One thing you might want to consider though... if you stike down onto the arm you will have two unpleasant consequences. 1. The opponents head is coming at you like a frieght train and may head butt you very easily. 2. Striking down on the arm will not cancel the width zone which you should be doing as you are "outside". This leaves you in range for his free (rear) hand to punch you in the face. The downward diagonal inward block negates both of these but still gives you the frictional pull, rebounding, target availability, and zoning needed. Of course if you did manage to break his arm on the first move as taught, you won't really need to worry about this other follow up stuff will you? Hit em hard!

Rob

 

[Sigung86]

Dennis,

In all seriousness, aside from the typographic error, there were only two changes I had to make in this technique from the Tracy's version. First, was interpretation (collar grab as opposed to a punch), secondly was sliding the left foot up to the right prior to the kick. I worked with both versions before I decided to use the step up left to right. You probably remember from your old Tracy days that slap checks were, at least at my school, an integral part of techniques.

There were several considerations for making the switch. Primarily, I am long torsoed, and short legged, in the greater scheme of things. The move up makes it easier to keep the distance for the kick for me. I do teach it both ways. The other consideration is that I have never liked moving to a Cat in a front to front confrontation. It seems, simply, to unsettled if you should happen to not be in total control of the zones. And this is pretty much a subjective notion, but the moving up left to right feels more controlled balance-wise for me.

Clvlkenpo: In Tracy's what you call Lone Kimono and use for a left hand collar grab, we call Kimono Grab and use for a two handed collar or chest level grab. But either way, unless you are standing in a square horse stance facing the attacker, I don't see how his head could ever hit you ... Particularly if you are going to a neutral bow in the initial stepping pattern with your left foot going back to 6:30 or so. Please, and most respectfully, enlighten me????

Take care,

Dan Farmer

 

[clvlkenpo]

Well when you strike straight downward vs diagonally down and in you are creating a line of force directly towards you now maybe I should have mentioned that the opponent is not dead and stupid and will try and counter your technique. You are aiding him in coming in towards you. With the diag. strike he cannot move in as you are directing his energy in a different direction and even if he were to move he would be forced off line. So if you look at it, yes you should be neutral at the end of the strike under the arm and your opponent should be forced cw away from you cancelling his rear arm counter stike which was one of your main goals because as you know there are no one punch techniques, however the downward stike will rotate your opponent ccw back towards you bringing his rear hand back into range to stike. If you will try this with a partner who reacts like a real opponent you will see this easily. If you look at Twin Kimono you see this principle compounded further. Some people like to use the Twin version for both one hand or two hand grabs because of the cancellation of the width zone.
Hope this is clearer!