Learn 7-17x faster with private lessons?

[Q-Man]

"You can learn 7x-17x times faster with private lessons."

I've read this comment on several different Kenpo/Kempo websites. I have not noticed it on any non-Kenpo/Kempo sites. Can anyone tell me if this is true and how they came to the "7x-17x times faster" part? thanks

 

[michaeledward]

Of course, it is completely false. It sounds like a clever marketing plan to separate you from your money seventeen times faster.

Let's examine with an anecdote Mr. Planas uses frequently, and is in his biography in 'The Journey', if I recall. The following is paraphrased.

The teacher in Kenpo does about five minutes worth of work. It then takes the student five years of work to learn that lesson completely.

Let us examine this.

A Kenpo instructor, can "teach" the technique Five Swords very quickly. There are four (or five) basics that compose the technique.

A - Step back into a Right Neutral Bow
B - Execute a Right Thrusting Inward Block to the aggressors forearm
C - Execute a Right Front Ball Kick to the aggressors groin
D - Land with an Right Outward Diagonal Handsword to the aggressors neck

Fifth Basic - a positional cover with the left hand in the middle zone / or pinning check with the left hand ~ I don't think we need to redebate these choices in this thread.
​

The teachers work is done at this point. Now, for the student to truly "learn" the technique, he needs to execute it at least 100 times (There is a '100 Times Rule' in our studio ~ although, I think that is shy by a factor of 10). I don't think there is any methodology that allows a student to shortcut the work of burning in the technique.

Now, in a private lesson, the student may be presented with more material than he would receive in a group lesson, but that does not equate to learning that material. And in fact, I will go one step further. I think that in most private lessons, the student is presented with too much material to comprehend and internalize. So not all of that private lesson time is effective.

No, I believe the premise is false. You can not learn seven times faster with private lessons.

 

[Jim Hanna]

"You can learn 7x-17x times faster with private lessons."

I've read this comment on several different Kenpo/Kempo websites. I have not noticed it on any non-Kenpo/Kempo sites. Can anyone tell me if this is true and how they came to the "7x-17x times faster" part? thanks

Well, I can't speak for the EPAK system (any variants) but I can say that that statement is true for the Tracy's curriculum.

The beauty of private lessons are that you (the student) can go at your own speed. That's one of the reasons I initially began kenpo. I was hungry and wanted to learn. I was taking TKD and had to wait for everyone to catch up in order to take a test at a predetermined date. With the private lesson philosophy (in the Tracy schools), a student tests individually when he or she is ready--and there is no belt testing fee.

If you're dedicated and practice then your progress is greatly accelerated.

Not only that, but private lessons provide an opportunity for those less talented, less dedicated students, to stay in kenpo because that student does not have to keep up with anyone.

Teaching privates is hard work. It is much more financially beneficial to teach a large group of people for an hour rather than one person.

Jim

 

[MJS]

"You can learn 7x-17x times faster with private lessons."

I've read this comment on several different Kenpo/Kempo websites. I have not noticed it on any non-Kenpo/Kempo sites. Can anyone tell me if this is true and how they came to the "7x-17x times faster" part? thanks

Anytime there are stats, like what you mention here, I have to wonder where those numbers come from. As for the rest of the question...I think that private lessons are good. Many times, especially if the group classes are large, and the student/instructor ratio isn't what it should/could be, there may be some students that suffer.

How many times should someone take one? I take one every week in addition to my group class. I've had private lessons set up with students weekly in addition to their classes. It gives the student the chance to focus on something specific, and its 1 on 1.

People will certainly have different views on the subject and of course thats fine. Again, for myself, I enjoy taking them and I suggest them to anyone that would like another chance to focus more on material.

Mike

 

[KempoGuy06]

Anytime there are stats, like what you mention here, I have to wonder where those numbers come from.

Good point. Remember 38% of all statistics are made up

B

 

[KenpoDave]

"You can learn 7x-17x times faster with private lessons."

I've read this comment on several different Kenpo/Kempo websites. I have not noticed it on any non-Kenpo/Kempo sites. Can anyone tell me if this is true and how they came to the "7x-17x times faster" part? thanks

I have always seen..."With private lessons, students can learn 7-17 times faster than with group classes alone."

"students CAN learn..." It's not a hard and fast rule, it is a potential. With privates, students are not held to the rate of the rest of the class. It is good for those who are gifted, and better for those who are not.

The key, as I understand it, is to take a private each week, and attend at least two group classes each week. I have seen students who only attend the privates fall behind, or plateau very easily.

In groups alone, it is easy to get lost in the crowd. Instructors that I have had are not able to give the attention that individuals need, and unfortunately, before and after class, they are always teaching another class. If not, they are taking a break and not interested in teaching at that moment. That's why I left.

The numbers came from teaching students to a certain level with groups alone, and teaching others with a combination of privates and group. It took students doing both privates and groups far less time to reach a similar skill level than students only taking groups.

 

[Blindside]

There is no question that I learned faster with private lessons, and I continue to take them to this day. I get to focus on my weaknesses, not the weaknesses of the group I am studying with that day. I am free to ask all the questions that I might be too shy to ask in front of my peers.

In my current practice I prefer to split costs of private lessons with my main training partner, he assimilates information at about the same rate as I do, but we remember different things. When we execute the tech the instructor gets to act as a third person observer and we both get practice in execution and "feeling" the tech. After we finish the private, we then meet again to rehash the material a couple of days later, we usually remember different things and have picked up different nuances from the lesson.

I'm pretty skeptical of claims of the numbers presented here though, great marketing tool though, I'd have far fewer reservations of a claim of 3 to 5 times.

Lamont

 

[Sigung86]

Being an Ol' Tracy guy, and we all know that's who we're talking about here, I have to say that it is easily true. Privates, simply for dumping a large amount of information and motion training into a student's head is way far above and beyond anything a group training method can bring to the table...

I have never done a realistic comparison, because no matter how you cut it, individuals are individuals, but I wouldn't be surprised at the numbers at all. From my perspective of all my years of training and teaching, I find that the statement is not outlandish at all.

It is as I have said before; Think of Al Tracy what you will, but you can not deny that his business acumen is first class. the learning faster via private lessons is a fact, and it is one that the Tracy System capitalizes on in a really fine way that, actually, ends up being a win-win situation for student and teacher alike. I find that private lessons work even better with the use of NeuroLinguistic Programming concepts involved in the individual process.

I also suspect that people who pooh-pooh "privates" out of hand have never tried it, or have never been shown or taught how to use private lessons correctly. It seems, in my exposure to many different Kenpo schools and methodologies, that, often enough, Kenpo people spend myriad man hours arguing their way through the morass of tehnical ups and downs (what some would call the analysis paralysis), and very little time experimenting with or learning actual teaching skills. And that, is unfortunately, most sad for upcoming students.

For example... tons and tons of posts on these forums about technique this and technique that, "My instructor teaches it this way"... "Well, my instructor teaches it that way"... But how often do we see posts questioning or answering the best methods of teaching!?

Just imagine that, somewhere, someone has a class with the worlds' worst group class only -Kenpo Instructor, and how that instructor could be improved, and by extension, his students, with just a bit of instruction in the art of private instruction.

 

[michaeledward]

and how that instructor could be improved, and by extension, his students, with just a bit of instruction in the art of private instruction.

Are you teaching "teaching", or teaching kenpo?

If your instructor were to benefit from a lesson in giving private instruction, why would there not be similiar benefit by giving the instructor a lesson in group instruction?

I am a professional trainer of adult students. And I hope that I am always on alert for new methods and techniques that allow me to present information with more clarity. (This past week, I observed a colleague training ~ and I picked up several tips from her presentation style)

But, there are two sides to education ~ the teaching side and the learning side. Improving the presentation skills on the teaching side, I believe does not directly correlate to an improvement of kenpo skills on the learning side.

The student has to do the work.

 

[Carol]

I've definitely learned a lot faster with private lessons.

At least for my own training, my instructors work with me to make sure I understand what they are trying to teach. Some things are easier for me to learn than others, they get it. Then he watches what I do to see if I am performing it correctly, and he fine tunes a lot of my mystakes.

A pet peeve that I personally have about martial arts instruction is not understanding how to do something, and then be told to just practice it. Why must I repeat something that I know is wrong, yet I don't know how to forget? Then all I'm doing is burning crap in to memory that I have to un-learn later. Frankly speaking, it would be more effective for me to do pushups than to burn in bad material.

Privates right now are pretty much the only option for me due to my current work schedule. However, I don't see giving them up entirely even if I have a chance to return to group classes. The one on one attention is simply more efficient, for me.

 

[Sigung86]

Are you teaching "teaching", or teaching kenpo?

And why should what I teach make any difference? Unless I am misunderstanding your question? Assuming I know what you are asking in a general way I will respond by saying...

It does not matter whether I am "teaching" or teaching Kenpo, or underwater fingerpainting, as far as that goes. There are methods and there are procedures and there are "tricks" that work regardless of the subject.

Another way to look at your generally worded statement is that, it should not matter if I am teaching in a highly qualified university, or a low-end rental Kenpo School. If I am teaching, even if only for fun and profit, I owe the student my very best.

Continuing on that vein, teaching is not something to take lightly. There are those who do, and those who teach. I know that in the past that has been used as somewhat of a putdown. You either can, or you have to teach. However, looking at it from another side... Simply because you can tie your shoes does not mean you have the general alacrity, or abilities to teach someone else to tie theirs.

Each student is individual. Some are visually oriented, some audio oriented, some are kinesthetic. I have no understanding of how I can put some of each in a room, teach one way only, and then insist that it is the student's responsibility to pick it all up, and get it all correctly.

Then we deal with different levels of learning ability. Some students will be able to see it once, and have it immediately, and forever. For instance, I had a fellow, about 12 years ago, who walked into my school. He was a "natural"! He had the sum total of everything under the old Tracy System from Yellow to first Black, in about a year.

Then I had a young man I taught with learning disability and some physical impediments. It took me six weeks, or so, of private lessons to get him standing and transitioning into and out of a Square Horse, and doing the inward and outward blocks ande reverse punch.

So, how does that work? Was I simply an awesome instructor with one student and a numbskull with the other? Or did I perhaps, simply, not work well with the other? Could it have been a bit of individual learning issue with each student? A combination of all of the above? I, honestly, don't know, but I do know that I would have not been able to reach the student with the learning disabiity at all in a group lessons only type of environment.

The student has to do the work.

And so, once we have placed our hallowed hands on the situtation, given a bit of knowledge and ensured the student can do it at some level (low or high) we are no longer responsible for them?

Actually, the teacher had better be there working with the student(s) and s/he had better be accessible by the student, or s/he "ain't" much of a teacher.

 

[arnisador]

"You can learn 7x-17x times faster with private lessons."

Well, I can't speak for the EPAK system (any variants) but I can say that that statement is true for the Tracy's curriculum.

Let's suppose a student in group instruction could reach black belt in 5 years (i.e., 60 months). Then someone learning 7-17 times faster could do it in 3.5-8.5 months?

 

[John Bishop]

Let's suppose a student in group instruction could reach black belt in 5 years (i.e., 60 months). Then someone learning 7-17 times faster could do it in 3.5-8.5 months?

Realistically speaking: there's a big difference in learning how to mimic techniques you've been shown, and applying those techniques in a live fashion.
Someone could be taught kata privately, and be on a world class level, but yet not be able to fight.
I think the place for private instruction is as a supplement to group classes. In fact I would say there should be at least 3 hours of class instruction for every hour of private instruction.
Techniques need to be worked in a live fashion, against opponents of various sizes, speeds, and skill levels.

 

[LawDog]

Like everything else there is a proper time and place for everything, one must just find it.

 

[KenpoDave]

Let's suppose a student in group instruction could reach black belt in 5 years (i.e., 60 months). Then someone learning 7-17 times faster could do it in 3.5-8.5 months?

Groups are typically an hour. Privates are a half hour.

60 months of groups at 2 groups a week at 4.3 weeks a month is 516 hours of training.

That is equivalent to 1,032 private lessons. Students in Tracy's typically reach black in about 3 years. That is 156 private lessons. That is 6.6 times faster. I reached mine in a year and 10 months. That's 11 times faster. A student who is able to do it in a year is 19 times faster than the 5 years of groups model. Even if we even it out to 5 years each, a student doing two groups a week is spending 4 times as much time learning than the guy doing privates.

We can play with the numbers all day long. But the actual point is this...privates allow an instructor to work individually with a student. He is able to load the student with more material in an individual 30 minute lesson than most people learn in a month of group classes. What this does, and this is the kicker, is free up the group time for actual work rather than instruction. Time spent teaching/talking/explaining is time NOT spent working out. So we do all the teaching/talking/explaining in private lessons, and we lead group classes. Yeah, there is some teaching. But for the most part, the instructor knows what everyone knows because he already taught it to them privately, and customizes the class to get the most efficient use out of the time.

Here is a real scenario of just last week. A student had tested for and received his yellow belt. On his next private, we went through all the orange belt kicks. Worked about 5-10 of each, just enough for him to be able to perform the kick correctly. Then, Monday night group class focused on those kicks. He performed at least 100 repetitions of each kick, from a variety of stances and positions.

Wednesday, same kicks with bag work. Roughly 50 reps of each kick. The instructor made corrections as needed, but did not have to stop and teach.

Had we needed to spend the time in group teaching those kicks from scratch, the amount of work accomplished would have been greatly diminished. The best part is that the upper belts, the ones who knew the kicks and did not need the corrections, were able to focus on their intensity, power, speed, form, etc, and got a better physical workout than the person who the group was actually customized to.

It's a pretty cool thing.

 

[LawDog]

Groups are 1 hour? Is this the time frame that is normally used on the West Coast?

 

[Doc]

Realistically speaking: there's a big difference in learning how to mimic techniques you've been shown, and applying those techniques in a live fashion.
Someone could be taught kata privately, and be on a world class level, but yet not be able to fight.
I think the place for private instruction is as a supplement to group classes. In fact I would say there should be at least 3 hours of class instruction for every hour of private instruction.
Techniques need to be worked in a live fashion, against opponents of various sizes, speeds, and skill levels.

Precisely John. Privates have always been touted as a sales tool to suppliment cash flow of the group classes. However that being said, there can be some merit to privates. In the beginning, especially when students are being taught basics with little to no interaction privates serve a significant purpose in a one-on-one environment.

However, in the teaching of physically interactive skills and mechanisms, (especially those that require subtle tactile absorbsion), my teacher always spoke of the necessity for what he called the "Three Person perspective" to fully maximize learning capability. Without the third person perspective absent in private lessons, at least a third of the learning experience is absent, and probably more.

Imagine in athletics trying to teach someone any physical contact sport. A student must not only participate in both sides of the physical equation, but he must be allowed to observe it being done correctly. Without the live third person perspective this isn't possible. The "Third Person Perspective extends itself not only to the student but the teacher as well.

I may perform an action on you to allow you to feel its effectiveness. You may perform the same on me, but I will be unable to see what is wrong and correct it because I am on the receiving end. As a teacher, I too need that third perspective in order to correct the student.

So you see without the thrid person perspective being available to all involved, there is a significant portion of the learning process ommitted, and less than optimal results is guaranteed.

I have no strict private students. My disclaimer is anyone who is desireous of privates is informed that only a third of their lessons may be private. The other two-thirds require the group experienece to be successful. For what and how I teach, strictly privates would be a straight up rip-off. You cannot learn that way. Any good "coach" will tell you that.

 

[KenpoDave]

Precisely John. Privates have always been touted as a sales tool to suppliment cash flow of the group classes. However that being said, there can be some merit to privates. In the beginning, especially when students are being taught basics with little to no interaction privates serve a significant purpose in a one-on-one environment.

However, in the teaching of physically interactive skills and mechanisms, (especially those that require subtle tactile absorbsion), my teacher always spoke of the necessity for what he called the "Three Person perspective" to fully maximize learning capability. Without the third person perspective absent in private lessons, at least a third of the learning experience is absent, and probably more.

Imagine in athletics trying to teach someone any physical contact sport. A student must not only participate in both sides of the physical equation, but he must be allowed to observe it being done correctly. Without the live third person perspective this isn't possible. The "Third Person Perspective extends itself not only to the student but the teacher as well.

I may perform an action on you to allow you to feel its effectiveness. You may perform the same on me, but I will be unable to see what is wrong and correct it because I am on the receiving end. As a teacher, I too need that third perspective in order to correct the student.

So you see without the thrid person perspective being available to all involved, there is a significant portion of the learning process ommitted, and less than optimal results is guaranteed.

I have no strict private students. My disclaimer is anyone who is desireous of privates is informed that only a third of their lessons may be private. The other two-thirds require the group experienece to be successful. For what and how I teach, strictly privates would be a straight up rip-off. You cannot learn that way. Any good "coach" will tell you that.

Remember, the Tracy's model is based on 1 private lesson each week and at least 2 group workouts each week.

Typically, when this question arises, it is, "Which is better, privates or groups?" It is typically hotly debated. But it is the wrong question. Privates and groups together are better than either alone.

 

[Doc]

Remember, the Tracy's model is based on 1 private lesson each week and at least 2 group workouts each week.

Typically, when this question arises, it is, "Which is better, privates or groups?" It is typically hotly debated. But it is the wrong question. Privates and groups together are better than either alone.

Al knew what he was doing, and for the record; Parker followed the same business model of privates and groups, initiated by Al.

 

[Big Don]

Knowing that I learn better one-on-one, when I first started I took privates. I would attend sparring on Mondays and my private on Wednesdays and other than that, practice at home. I started drifting into the Thursday night group class and was amazed at how much better I retained what I learned after working with the rest of the class. 7-17 times faster, that is a fairly fantastic claim, if nothing else.