Kung Fu Federation

[7starmantis]

7*, you train in SanShou????

How is SanShou any different from what the Kung Fu federation is trying to accomplish?

What do you mean? If you do any type of fighting or "competing" its the same as what they are trying to accomplish? I guess it all comes down to how you train san shou or how you compete in san shou. I dont compete in most "san shou" tourneys, I do more "full contact" events. I'm using san shou in the traditional sense of the word, not that I'm training in the sport section of "san shou". My 7* sifu is my sifu in san shou as well, so its not seperate training, but using the same principles. I'm not against competition all together, or fighting by any means, I simply think making an olympic sport of "kung fu" is for one, impossible if staying true to kung fu, and not at all the educational vehicle many claim it is. In my san shou training and fighting, I dont train for certain techniques while leaving others out. Grantit, there are a few techniques you can't do in the ring which is one reason I dont do all that much ring fighting anymore. I use the same principles of my 7* fighting in my "san shou" fighting. In most tournements, that is simply not the case, many techniques and principles are different from sparring match to kung fu class.

Competing with kung fu is hard to do, does that make it impossible? No. Does it make it useless? No. Does that mean we should encourage sport training and exalt point sparring or padded, highly ruled sparring? No. Exalting this "olympic kung fu" is only going to encourage training for what techniques are allowed in the Olympic competition. however, these athletes are still going to say they are practicing Kung Fu. The millions or billions of viewers will then see this "kung fu" nad believe that is what Kung Fu really is.

JMHO,
7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

OK, so if I'm reading you right, you think competetions are OK..you just think that making Kung Fu an olympic sport would be a corrupting influence?

What about Taolu competetion?

 

[47MartialMan]

But given that KF, or any other MA, was created for survival of their era on introduction, should it hold true that they envolved to meet the criteria for survival in the current and/or future era(s)?

How can competition, any type, including UFC, actually or completely fill this need?

Sure, from competition, a public awareness is a goal.

 

[InvisibleFist]

47MM, is English your second language? I have a really hard time understanding you.

 

[47MartialMan]

What don't you understand?

 

[InvisibleFist]

What you are saying. You are either a non-native speaker or in need of some grammar training. Your last post made no sense.

" But given that KF, or any other MA, was created for survival of their era on introduction, should it hold true that they envolved to meet the criteria for survival in the current and/or future era(s)?

How can competition, any type, including UFC, actually or completely fill this need?

Sure, from competition, a public awareness is a goal."

 

[7starmantis]

OK, so if I'm reading you right, you think competetions are OK..you just think that making Kung Fu an olympic sport would be a corrupting influence?

What about Taolu competetion?

Basically, I think competition is ok, but I understand and I see competition for what it is. I dont think its some proving ground for kung fu, niether do I think its an effective tool for spreading knowledge of true kung fu. Competitions can vary in rules and intent. There are competitions that are ok, but I still realize they are not a real application scenario, I'm not going to fool myself there. True kung fu or CMA is not in a competition, its not easily seen or judged. In a competition the size and nature of the olympics, there will have to be set rules and set boundaries, and set forms (like floor routine of gymnastics) in order to be viable. That is against what kung fu actually is. You seriously think they are going to add 513 sections in the olympics for different styles of CMA? They aren't.

I dont know what Taolu competition is, sorry.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

Basically, I think competition is ok, but I understand and I see competition for what it is. I dont think its some proving ground for kung fu,

Agreed.

niether do I think its an effective tool for spreading knowledge of true kung fu.

Not sure I agree here. I was certainly led into Kung Fu because of seeing a tournament.


True kung fu or CMA is not in a competition, its not easily seen or judged.

In a competition the size and nature of the olympics, there will have to be set rules and set boundaries, and set forms (like floor routine of gymnastics) in order to be viable.

Thats what happened with wushu. Again I think that the KFF is trying to create a sport format for Traditional CMA.

I dont know what Taolu competition is, sorry.

7sm

Its forms competetion.

 

[7starmantis]

Not sure I agree here. I was certainly led into Kung Fu because of seeing a tournament.

What does that have to do with anything? Being led into a school, or starting to study a martial art style because of seeing it, is a completely different thing from what we are talking about here. First, I said knowledge, not enrollment. I'm sorry, but a tournement and the things you see at a tournement are simply not what kung fu is about. You can agree, or disagree, but the truth is still the same. You should pick up a book called, "The Sword Polisher's Record: The Way of Kung Fu" by Adam Hsu. Its a great book that does a good job of detailing what kung fu is about and why we do certain things in kung fu. It talks about the future of kung fu quite a bit.

Thats what happened with wushu. Again I think that the KFF is trying to create a sport format for Traditional CMA.

Wow, thats what I'm trying to tell you. What you just said is an oxymoron. "Sport Format for Traditional CMA". That is ridiculous, there is no sport in Traditional CMA, what kind of format could be created to make sport where there is none? You would have to change the nature of it. Plain and simple. If you think it can be done, outline for us a simple sport format for traditional kung fu competition here on this thread.

Its forms competetion.

Forms competition is basically the same thing, how do you judge it? Is your teacher in CLF going to judge my 7* mantis forms? How can they all compete with each other?

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

Not my opnion, but perhaps what is trying to be done in likeness of:

Per some tourmanents, the judges are mixed (if mixed Ma tourney). Those judges do not know the form movements per participant. Each judge has a certain criteros that they look for. For instance, the TKD judge is looking for balance and high kicks. The Wado judge maybe looking for good hand series...And so on.

So, per WuShu tournies would be the closest (altough not accurate) to watch/participate Kung Fu. However, given the definition of Kung Fu, per confusion and politics, as always, the entertainment industry is smearing it also.

 

[7starmantis]

Thats exactly what I was saying and is the problem. What certain criteria would you list for judges to look for in Kung Fu participants from every CMA style available?

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

A martial artist from one system cannot accurately judge another from a different system. This is why tournies, of most types, are not a "true" test of skill" that they should not be judged.


Perhaps a "tourny", closed, of the martial artists from the same system (although from differenet location/countries)

 

[Infrazael]

A load of trash.

If Kung Fu has competition, it shouldn't be some worldwide one just a get attention and disregard the arts for what they are. The Olympics is the perfect archetype of this horrid thing.

In CLF, we have many competitions, full contact competitions with other CLF schools, forms competitions, etc etc.

It's within family. And Sifu also takes us to other tournaments too with other styles. But do we make a huge deal out of it? No. We don't have to go to the UFC do prove something. Neither do BJJ guys, JJJ guys, etc.

If you are capable of something then you know it.

 

[7starmantis]

What certain criteria would you list for judges to look for in Kung Fu participants from every CMA style available?

I take it from this question being unaswered, that no one here would really want to undertake creating that list. Competition between schools and others in your area should just be a normal part of your training. Isolation is not a great learning tool.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I started digging deeper into the IKF site adn found some interesting things. Aside from the site being very poorly done and in incorrect english I found some rules I thought I would post here for discussion.

1.) Grading System for the Internation Kung Fu Federation and affiliated schools:

White sash 1 month Yellow sash 6 months Blue sash 6 months Green sash 6 months Red sash 6 months Brown sash 6 months Black sash (Coach) 8 months These grades are given to the practitioners by the Masters when the practitioners practice seriously in a proper level and during the practice observe all the rules.

2.) Age limits, no one over 35 years of age can compete in anything.
3.) In Sanda competition, everyone above 175 pounds are lumped together. In Full Sanda everyone above 198 is. Thats a huge weight class!! Everyone must wear a helmet (open helmets prohibited), open gloves, chest protection, groin protection and shin protection. If at the end of the finals there is not a visual winner a weight in will be conducted and the fighter with less weight wins!!
4.) Rules...... No throws, elbows, grabs, kicks with the shin, pushing, agressive behavior and absolutely no knockouts. Also, contestants must use a kick after 3 consecutive hand techniques, otherwise no points. They wear open gloves, but no palm strikes or grabbing allowed. I can't get over the aggressive behavior rule.

WOW....Um...can they fight? I guess they can dance with each other, but not fight.

Thoughts?

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

White sash 1 month
Yellow sash 6 months
Blue sash 6 months
Green sash 6 months
Red sash 6 months
Brown sash 6 months
Black sash (Coach) 8 months These grades are given to the practitioners by the Masters when the practitioners practice seriously in a proper level and during the practice observe all the rules.


One thing that bothers me, why use a color belt ranking system, if any, in resemlbance to Karate systems? Why copy-cat?

 

[DBACPhoenix]

4.) Rules...... No throws, elbows, grabs, kicks with the shin, pushing, agressive behavior and absolutely no knockouts. Also, contestants must use a kick after 3 consecutive hand techniques, otherwise no points. They wear open gloves, but no palm strikes or grabbing allowed. I can't get over the aggressive behavior rule.

No agressive behavior.... This pretty much sums up the fight right there, if this is a rule, you might as well change it to:

4.) Rules...... Participants are only allowed to stare at each other, first one to blink loses. Participants must also smile while doing so, points will be deducted for lack of smiling.

I have been sitting here for about 15min trying to think of a way I can fight without being aggressive... I guess I can just role over, let my self get pummeled and lose... but then my opponent would have points deducted for aggression and I would win by default

hehe... I just had to post when I saw this...

Seriously though, even if you took out the aggresive behavior rule, you still can't truely fight. I fight my kung fu brothers with great control, but I have still cracked them hard due to no fault of my own.. My fist just ends up in a place where their head goes to avoid my other hand, it's almost like beating yourself up, but I would be scolded for doing suching things in this type of "competition"... Very sad that someone would degrade things to such a level...

Phoenix

 

[InvisibleFist]

What does that have to do with anything? Being led into a school, or starting to study a martial art style because of seeing it, is a completely different thing from what we are talking about here. First, I said knowledge, not enrollment. I'm sorry, but a tournement and the things you see at a tournement are simply not what kung fu is about. You can agree, or disagree, but the truth is still the same.

tournements promote the art, create interest. Interest = new students. Thats a Good Thing.

Wow, thats what I'm trying to tell you. What you just said is an oxymoron. "Sport Format for Traditional CMA". That is ridiculous, there is no sport in Traditional CMA, what kind of format could be created to make sport where there is none? You would have to change the nature of it. Plain and simple. If you think it can be done, outline for us a simple sport format for traditional kung fu competition here on this thread.

I don't have to. The link you posted contains a sport format. There are others, including the kuoshu federation, the AAU/CMA etc. To say there is no sport in trad CMA is just wrong and you know it. There are numerous competitive events in CMA.

Forms competition is basically the same thing, how do you judge it? Is your teacher in CLF going to judge my 7* mantis forms? How can they all compete with each other?

Obviously this is a problem. Contemporary wushu was an attempt to deal with this problem. The KFF is another such attempt.

 

[InvisibleFist]

I started digging deeper into the IKF site adn found some interesting things. Aside from the site being very poorly done and in incorrect english

x

 

[DBACPhoenix]

To say there is no sport in trad CMA is just wrong and you know it. There are numerous competitive events in CMA.

Sport is defined as an activity that involves rules. To say that traditional CMA is a sport, or has sport incorporated within is to say that it also is bound by rules...

If traditional CMA is bound by rules, then it can be considered a sport... So if you view traditional CMA as an art where you are expressly forbidden from doing certain techniques, or told that there is only one way, one perfect way to accomplish a technique, then I guess you can say it is a sport.

But in my eyes, for traditional CMA to truely be considered an art, it must know no bounds. The art of fighting must have endless avenues... Options and decisions must be available, where traditional CMA guides the human body through its potential movements, yet not bound by strict and ridged rules.

Consider this.. Do you view painting as a sport? True you can make it a sport by having competitions invovling how fast you can paint something, or how realistic you can create. But would you view the art of painting in such a way? Or would you see the essence of painting as an art where the painter has many tools and guides around him, but in the end chooses his own path with no rules.

I see traditional CMA as a true art, and as such I do not see the sport aspect in the essence of this art.

Phoenix