Kung Fu Federation

[7starmantis]

I agree with the last few posts as well. Training on what catches the attention of the judges, looks cool, and gets points, is not true training. Its not applicable to true self defense, and goes against what CMA is all about, as does "strutting our respective stuff" in reality.

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

I agree with the last few posts as well. Training on what catches the attention of the judges, looks cool, and gets points, is not true training. Its not applicable to true self defense, and goes against what CMA is all about, as does "strutting our respective stuff" in reality.

7sm

Don' forget about the strnge and/or colorful uniforms that starting to look like band/parade ones.

 

[InvisibleFist]

I agree with the last few posts as well. Training on what catches the attention of the judges, looks cool, and gets points, is not true training. Its not applicable to true self defense, and goes against what CMA is all about, as does "strutting our respective stuff" in reality.

7sm

There are many reasons why one might study the martial arts. Self defence is one of them. Another is the sport aspect, and another is desire to bust some mad moves. All of these are legitimate. If all you're into is self defence, that's fine, but there's no reason to invalidate the other reasons. At the end of the day, its just freakin' hobby.

I don't agree that "Strutting our stuff" goes against what CMA is about. CMA has a long tradition of exhibition. I believe that the forms at one time were the equivalent of parade drill...a way for armies to demonstrate their martial prowess in public.

 

[InvisibleFist]

How can somebody judge different variations of a CMA when there is no single style CMA? In Olympic sports, the competition routines are standardized & categorized. You can't do that with TCMA.

I agree its a problem, and its this problem that wushu was developed to deal with (as you pinted out.) However wushu created a NEW problem--the compulsory forms eclipsed the traditional forms. Also, in mixed wushu/traditional tournaments, wushu had an unfair advantage, since their forms were developed specifically to win tourneys. This organization appears to be trying to right those wrongs.

 

[InvisibleFist]

Fighting. No rules, no judges, no set boundries, just pure fighting. We fight ALOT in my school and even have others join us. Just this past week we had a guy from a local Karate club and a guy from a local Judo club come and fight with us, full contact. While

You fight full contact, no restrictions??? I find this hard to believe. How come people don't die?

 

[47MartialMan]

There are many reasons why one might study the martial arts. Self defence is one of them. Another is the sport aspect, and another is desire to bust some mad moves. All of these are legitimate. If all you're into is self defence, that's fine, but there's no reason to invalidate the other reasons. At the end of the day, its just freakin' hobby.

I don't agree that "Strutting our stuff" goes against what CMA is about. CMA has a long tradition of exhibition. I believe that the forms at one time were the equivalent of parade drill...a way for armies to demonstrate their martial prowess in public.

Bust some mad moves???????

A hobby, like model building?

 

[7starmantis]

There are many reasons why one might study the martial arts. Self defence is one of them. Another is the sport aspect, and another is desire to bust some mad moves. All of these are legitimate. If all you're into is self defence, that's fine, but there's no reason to invalidate the other reasons. At the end of the day, its just freakin' hobby.

I don't agree that "Strutting our stuff" goes against what CMA is about. CMA has a long tradition of exhibition. I believe that the forms at one time were the equivalent of parade drill...a way for armies to demonstrate their martial prowess in public.

There are many reasons why people study, however there are also many levels of skill and understanding people reach. A sport trainer which views kung fu as a "freakin hobby" will reach one level while a dedicated fighter will reach a different one altogether. Kung fu is different than other "sport" styles, and does not lend itself to the sport aspect. The best sport kung fu hobbiest in the world with the highest level of sport kung fu skill would stand in a league not even comparable to those who train true, hard, and dedicated. There are different reasons for it, so thats ok but they should also understand what they are doing and what skill they have. Kung Fu is not a hobby to me it is a way of life, it is a part of my life and its something that has changed my life tremendously. It reaches into every area of my life, not just fighting. I'm not invalidating your reason to study, but starting an olympic sport of kung fu would most deffinitely invalidate my reasons for studying.

Strutting our stuff does go against the philosophy of kung fu whether you choose to believe it or not. What kind of sources could you post to site your CMA having long traditions of exhibition?

You fight full contact, no restrictions??? I find this hard to believe. How come people don't die?

Oh sorry, no restrictions except those emposed on us by the laws of the United States of America.....seems I left that out

Not all of our students fight full contact, and I dont go full contact with most of our students. There are a select group of us who are in the advanced group that have the skill to fight full speed and power and not really seriously injure each other. Obviously we aren't trying to kill each other as we would then be without a training partner. Have you never seen full contact fighting? I said no rules and no set boundaries...that is correct. Believe it or not, there are those who train hard and full contact, most dont view it as a "freakin hobby" though.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

Bust some mad moves???????

Yeah, thats right, bust some mad moves!

(Throws a kiu sau!)

 

[47MartialMan]

But Kung Fu is a misnomer...ALL martial arts are Gong Fu!

 

[7starmantis]

But Kung Fu is a misnomer...ALL martial arts are Gong Fu!

Lets keep this thread on topic, this is not the place for that argument.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

Strutting our stuff does go against the philosophy of kung fu whether you choose to believe it or not. What kind of sources could you post to site your CMA having long traditions of exhibition?

I believe we've had this argument before.

Kung Fu has been used:

1) In miltary parade drill, starting back in Feudal times and continuing today with the Taiwanese military.
2) In Chinese opera
3) By Chinese Street performers.
4) In films.
5) Most recently, it has been co-opted by the hip-hoppers and b-boys.

Kung fu has ALWAYS had a performance element. To say otherwise is to hide your head in the sand.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Martial arts is NOT about kicking *** --Its about looking COOL while kicking ***!

 

[InvisibleFist]

I posted this on another thread, but its relevant here, so I'll post it again:

There's an interesting article on kung fu history at :
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/...atyi/dross.html

Quoted from that article:
"Unfortunately, those who criticize its performance elements do not fully understand the history of their own arts. Postures and techniques were indeed altered to make them more pleasing to the eye and acrobatic moves such as the butterfly twist were created (it is not a traditional movement). However, while contemporary Wu-Shu is the most drastic example of technical modification it is not unique. There is a long history of the use of martial arts for performance and the modification of techniques for performance purposes.

For example, the Qing Imperial Court's official performers utilized a wide variety of skills which were derived from traditional martial art practice. Strong men would wield heavy halberds (Gwan Do) and there were demonstrations of the flying fork (Fei Cha) . In addition, strictly military arts such as archery and wrestling (Shuai-Jiao) were both popular court entertainment.

Traditional Chinese opera also made extensive use of martial arts skills for entertainment. The opera recreated great battles and its performers had to be able to use traditional weapons and engage in elaborate staged fights . For this reason, those raised in the opera received training very similar to that a martial artist received. In addition, as discussed previously, many martial artists also joined traveling opera troops. These men often taught members of the troop martial arts for protection. Thus, in the opera the line between fighting art and performance art was often blurred.

Today, traditional martial arts are still influenced by these performance traditions. The so-called "hard" Chi-Kung tricks such as brick breaking, wire bursting, nail beds, and the bending of spears and swords are all products of the street performance tradition. They require both conditioning and discipline to perform but have virtually nothing to do with real fighting. Many of the tumbling techniques, leaping kicks and balancing moves found in traditional forms are similarly inspired. Some assume that the Chinese public was more familiar with the martial arts and thus more discriminating than western audiences but in reality the common peasant or laborer was just as impressed by these tricks."

 

[clfsean]

Martial arts is NOT about kicking *** --Its about looking COOL while kicking ***!

I'll go along with that. :uhyeah:

However the nature of martial arts isn't to show off. That's human nature.

There's a difference...

 

[47MartialMan]

Originally Posted by InvisibleFist.....Martial arts is NOT about kicking *** --Its about looking COOL while kicking ***!

And this is on subject? What if it is your....(against forum policy with his word)....being kicked.

 

[7starmantis]

I believe we've had this argument before.

Kung Fu has been used:

1) In miltary parade drill, starting back in Feudal times and continuing today with the Taiwanese military.
2) In Chinese opera
3) By Chinese Street performers.
4) In films.
5) Most recently, it has been co-opted by the hip-hoppers and b-boys.

Kung fu has ALWAYS had a performance element. To say otherwise is to hide your head in the sand.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Martial arts is NOT about kicking *** --Its about looking COOL while kicking ***!

I actually asked for sources, not a list of your opinions. Not one of your reasons listed has a connection to true kung fu. Films? Chinese Opera? Are you kidding with this stuff? Because someone takes something from kung fu or any martial art style and uses it for show doesn't mean that kung fu or said martial arts style is performance based. Your looking at what people use to perform as the whole of kung fu....thats just simply naive.

Your quote about looking cool portrays your understanding of kung fu quite well.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

I actually asked for sources, not a list of your opinions. Not one of your reasons listed has a connection to true kung fu. Films? Chinese Opera? Are you kidding with this stuff? Because someone takes something from kung fu or any martial art style and uses it for show doesn't mean that kung fu or said martial arts style is performance based. Your looking at what people use to perform as the whole of kung fu....thats just simply naive.

Your quote about looking cool portrays your understanding of kung fu quite well.

7sm

Didn't say that it was performance based, just that it had performance elements. This is just prima facia obvious.

Not one of your reasons listed has a connection to true kung fu. Films? Chinese Opera?

So are you saying that Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, and Lau Kar Leung are not doing TRUE kung fu.

Look, Mantis, ALL I'm saying is that gung fu is a room with many mansions. Stage kung fu is part of our tradition. Thats the way it is. Kung fu is ALSO a serious self defence system, but there's no reason to DENY the performance aspect.

 

[7starmantis]

Didn't say that it was performance based, just that it had performance elements. This is just prima facia obvious.

OK, wow...um, aside from your own opinions, do you have any sources that you could site to show performance "elements"? You should spend some time researching Chinese culture and history a bit, it gives great insight into kung fu. Kung Fu is for no one other than the practitioner, performance is for others. I can understand that your intrest in kung fu is about performance, but does that make all of kung fu about performance? Thats rather arrogant isn't it? May I ask how long you have been studying CMA?

So are you saying that Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, and Lau Kar Leung are not doing TRUE kung fu.

I dont have to say it, Jackie says it himself. Listen, the fact that kung fu can be used for performance, or that you can perform with kung fu, doesn't make kung fu have elements of performance within it, and it certainly doesn't make it worthwhile to create an olympic sport for it.

Look, Mantis, ALL I'm saying is that gung fu is a room with many mansions. Stage kung fu is part of our tradition. Thats the way it is. Kung fu is ALSO a serious self defence system, but there's no reason to DENY the performance aspect.

Part of whose tradition? Tradition is very different from saying kung fu has performance elements, or that kung fu is just a freakin hobby. Your traditions may differ from mine, that is ok, tradition does not = kung fu. Kung Fu is many things, but performance just goes against its nature. Look at push hands in taiji.....oxymoron. Is it good and can it help you develop skill if done correctly? Certainly! Is it worthwhile and does it further the art to have push hands competitions? Absolutely not( most of the time).

Looking cool, busting mad moves, impressing chicks, winning competitions, kicking ***, these are all fine, but they all contain ego. Ego is the number one killer of good kung fu.

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

There is the use of that three letter word again.
I am offended with that word...but hey, when I had used another.....geez.

I have to sadly agree with InvisibleFist to a degree that some Kung Fu is being used as perfomance (or has/with performance elements) nowdays. I dont think he is stating that ALL Kung Fu is like that. This is what is luring young people to it. The same as pathetic "Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu Monks/Temples", re-opening on curtailing a name. Luring on the art of fighting with little or no comprehension in its Buddhism. Given that the origin of its uses, Kung Fu, even the name is not correct to state a martial art. Given to state a skill in the 'ol days. So why can't there be performing Kung Fu/like Wu Shu? If there can be rules in UFC and open a event of that, then why can't Kung Fu do the same? (Not attempting to cross thread, using an example) And such that Kung Fu stylists cannot conform, have the skills, or control, to a few rules and call it Ultimate?

However, I disagree with InvisibleFist on this:
Kung fu has ALWAYS had a performance element. To say otherwise is to hide your head in the sand.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Martial arts is NOT about kicking a--,,, Its about looking COOL while kicking s!

 

[7starmantis]

The argument is not if kung fu can be used for performance, or even if people today use kung fu as performance. Its not even if people in history used kung fu for performance.
The discussion is whether or not kung fu contains performance elements, which if we are going to discuss rationally, we need to define what we mean by performance elements.

Invisiblefist, would you mind clearifying what you consider performance elements to be? In my opinion, nothing about kung fu is for performance, nothing at all. The fact that people take parts of kung fu and perform with them, doesn't change that fact.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

The argument is not if kung fu can be used for performance, or even if people today use kung fu as performance. Its not even if people in history used kung fu for performance.
The discussion is whether or not kung fu contains performance elements, which if we are going to discuss rationally, we need to define what we mean by performance elements.

Actually, the argument is whether the Kung Fu federation and Olympic Kung fu is a good or a bad thing.

Invisiblefist, would you mind clearifying what you consider performance elements to be? In my opinion, nothing about kung fu is for performance, nothing at all. The fact that people take parts of kung fu and perform with them, doesn't change that fact.

Butterfly kicks, Lotus Kicks, Imitating the movements of Taoist immortals, Pretending to be the monkey king, and climbing up your staff like its a tree.