Kukkiwon restructure

[Daniel Sullivan]

some great posting CT!

Thank you, but you quoted Twin Fist

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I reject the idea that only Kukkiwon taekwondo is taekwondo. The Kukkiwon may be the largest "style" currently, but it's certainly not the only one out there. The various ITFs are an obvious counterexample as are the students of prominent TKD independent masters like He Il Cho or Jhoon Rhee.

There are many TKD splinter groups out there, and yes, in my opinoins ITF is a splinter group of TKD. Choi didn't get the power he craved and went off on his own. I also have a lot of respect for GM Rhee and Cho. Rhee was one of the first black belts (#17) of the Chungdokwan under Lee, Won-kuk and has a healthy relationship with the KKW. If anything, Cho proves my point about being in line with KKW guildlines while having your own flavor. Unless he has changed, he teachese KKW forms as well as his own system and he is a KKW certified black belt.

The original intent of KKW was to be the underlying guidelines for TKD

 

[Kwanjang]

Thank you, but you quoted Twin Fist

Daniel

whoops...Sorry bout that! I do enjoy reading your posts!

 

[miguksaram]

as do I.

The KKW isnt even a style, it is apolitical organization that exists, as far as I can see just to make money.

Do you know who took care of the athletes accomodations during the Hanmadang in Korea?

And what do you get for that money?

a card and the ability to look someone up and see if THEY paid the KKW money.

What do you get with other associations?

The idea that it lends one credibility is false, since they dont actually test the people below a certain rank, all you gotta do is get a signature from someone else that paid them money

they only actually test what? candidates for 8th and above?

Actually 4th and above should be tested via KKW or a KKW official.

they just take the money and issue the card.

Don't they do the same with driver's liscences?

Sorry, but this "the KKW way or the highway" stuff irks me to no end

Martial artists should not make themselves slaves to a political group

Then stay away from martial arts because it is all political. If you follow a certain way you are subject to being part of a political process. I am not saying KKW is without flaws and it does need to clean house if there is as much corruption as people are claiming. Just don't kid yourself in thinking all the splinter groups are just squeaky clean. Hell half of these American associations are founded by people who magically became 10th dans.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm afraid that as long as people pay for martial art lessons, be it TKD, Karate, Judo, or any other MA of any kind, there is going to be corruption.

Money does that to people...they may start off with good intentions, but the more schools that they have under their "belt" as an orginization, the more money they are going to make. The more money they make, the more they want to make, and will come up with all kinds of crazy ways to make the money.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hell half of these American associations are founded by people who magically became 10th dans.

Not magic. Just sufficiently advanced enough technology that to us mere traditional practitioners, it is indistinguishable from magic.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

As for the last sentence, I agree wholeheartedly.

Daniel

well thanks CT.
It is always a pleasure to get positive feedback from one's peers

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

well thanks CT.
It is always a pleasure to get positive feedback from one's peers

Agreed. Lots of positive in your posts

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

Do you know who took care of the athletes accomodations during the Hanmadang in Korea?

dont know. Dont care.

What do you get with other associations?

not much else, which is why i dont belong to ANY orgs

Actually 4th and above should be tested via KKW or a KKW official.

in theory yeah

Don't they do the same with driver's liscences?

true, but no one outside of highschool looks down thier nose at someone without a driver's license. In my experience anyway

Then stay away from martial arts because it is all political.

nope, my martial arts isnt.

 

[dancingalone]

There are many TKD splinter groups out there, and yes, in my opinoins ITF is a splinter group of TKD. Choi didn't get the power he craved and went off on his own.

I guess it depends on your perspective. I think ITF people could reasonably argue that it's the WTF that is the splinter org, following the Confuscian family head ideal. Choi WAS the head man at one point - you could argue that any legitimacy went through him.

I realize the Korean government sans Choi endorsed the new WTF instead. Again, it's all about perspective.

 

[miguksaram]

dont know. Dont care.

Well the answer was KKW who foot the bill for them.

not much else, which is why i dont belong to ANY orgs

Neither did your instructor or his/her instructor? So basicly you just teach whatever and then just give out a belt without any true structured curriculum?

true, but no one outside of highschool looks down thier nose at someone without a driver's license. In my experience anyway

The same would apply with the KKW

nope, my martial arts isnt.

Cool..What martial art do you study?

 

[miguksaram]

I guess it depends on your perspective. I think ITF people could reasonably argue that it's the WTF that is the splinter org, following the Confuscian family head ideal. Choi WAS the head man at one point - you could argue that any legitimacy went through him.

I realize the Korean government sans Choi endorsed the new WTF instead. Again, it's all about perspective.

Choi was never the head man. There was never any head. If you are looking at seniority he wouldn't even rank up there. The only pull was his military pull. If it weren't for the fact the ruling military regime, Choi would have nothing.

 

[dancingalone]

I realize General Choi was a junior martially to most of the kwan heads (for example). But he was 'elected' president of the KTA was he not? Would that not make him the de facto head of tae kwon do before he left Korea?

 

[Twin Fist]

I study TKD, from the Jhoon Rhee-Allen Steen line.
Interesting side note. i started in "Tex kwon Do" as we call it in 1984, then left to join the military. I can back and picked it up 15 years later. And the neat thing is, the same kata were being taught. The same blocks, the same belt system, the same requirements for belt rank, the same forms, the same kicks, etc

The exact same structured cirriculum, basically un-changed (some minor drills were dropped and/or replaced by other training drills) for 15 years

all without the the need for sending a dime to Korea.

Another interesting side note:

The katas we do are commonly called the ITF, or Chang Hon forms. They are the ones Jhoon Rhee taught in 1959. WAY before the KKW was even a glimmer in anyone's eye, so the ITF isnt the splinter group, it is the original TKD. It was what was taught BEFORE the Koreans decided to re-write thier history and start building a so-called "national martial art(sport)"

Well the answer was KKW who foot the bill for them.

Neither did your instructor or his/her instructor? So basicly you just teach whatever and then just give out a belt without any true structured curriculum?

The same would apply with the KKW

Cool..What martial art do you study?

 

[BrandonLucas]

I study TKD, from the Jhoon Rhee-Allen Steen line.
Interesting side note. i started in "Tex kwon Do" as we call it in 1984, then left to join the military. I can back and picked it up 15 years later. And the neat thing is, the same kata were being taught. The same blocks, the same belt system, the same requirements for belt rank, the same forms, the same kicks, etc

The exact same structured cirriculum, basically un-changed (some minor drills were dropped and/or replaced by other training drills) for 15 years

all without the the need for sending a dime to Korea.

To me, this is the way it should be. I realize that there is going to be some change, but I don't think it would change a great deal...only very slightly. TKD is TKD. If you change it too much, whether you think it's more effective the way you change it, it ceases to be TKD.

And I appreciate and respect the fact that TKD came from Korea. I don't see the need to send them any money for learning TKD, especially when they're not the ones teaching it to me. And, on that note, if you want to be really technical, no one is learning the strict, original Korean style of TKD unless they're taking from someone directly from that era that lived in Korea at the time.

 

[exile]

This makes no sense. That's like saying we don't have to accept the Supreme Court's interpretation of the law, even though they establish it. The KKW was established to be the interpreter of what TKD is supposed to be. It was established by the kwan leaders as a source of unification of the TKD.

TKD is the name for a technique set and a set of combat strategies. The ways these can be applied, the way strategic plans and tactical resources may be combined to the advantage of the defender, are latent in the set of combat tools the art makes available. Your error in the passage I quoted from you is that you're assuming as given something which actually the issue under dispute. Those of us who do not see TKD as the exclusive property of the KKW's policy du jour deny that 'they establish it.' TKD has a wealth of resources from the Kwan and succeeding eras that are built into its hyung sets. That's TKD. The Korean TKD directorate has steadily promoted the defanging of a powerful combat system in favor of an esoteric and artificial martial sport/spectacle; its claim (in denial of TKD's Okinawan/Japanese roots) that because the components of that system originated in Korea, its development and definition is solely Korean, makes about as much sense as the claim that because the first novels were written in English, you have to write something in English or you're not entitled to call it a novel.

The techical content of TKD, its combat resources, is what is summarized in the forms. And any application of that technical content to real combat is TKD, regardless of the KKW's view of those applications. I've seen the most absurd rubbish passed off as bunkai, booh hae, whaever you want to call it, on the KKW website in the past—stuff where the very same cognate applications of identical sequences in Shotokan kata have been shown to be ludicrous by British Combat Association people like Abernethy, Peter Consterdine and Geoff Thompson, people with decades of actual combat experience as bouncers, club security people and the like under their belts. You're saying that because this kind of ludicrous pseudo-application of the content of the hyungs is endorsed and promoted by the KKW, that means that the far more realistic kinds of applications that Stuart Anslow and others have provided are not Taekwondo? And you're saying that that makes sense??

Yes, such great "American" TKD concepts have been done so well such as the ATA. No money grubbing there eh? Bottom line is this, if you don't like the KKW, then don't be a part of it. Just don't call what you do TKD.

Let's follow out your logic here. I've suggested that North Americans would do better to think about what they want their TKD to be, to experiment with it and develop it in various directions—to explore multiple hypotheses about what the best exploitation of its technical content is for combat purposes, with individual schools pursuing different curricula and evolving new approaches in the light of recent work on how the problems posed by street combat can be solved using novel interpretations of the resources in TKD, particularly the forms. And your response is, yeah, well, the ATA sucks. I have the impression you think there's something relevant about that reply. :lol:

The bottom line is, TKD is what is in its hyungs, the formal patterns that encode its combat techs. And you don't need KKW permission either to work out the optimal application of the strategic and tactical content of those patterns for real self defense, or to call it TKD. By the same token, the KKW's decision to exclude the Pyung-Ahns and marginalize the Palgwes from their curriculum doesn't make those forms any less part of what TKD is, regardless of their historical origins. I note that in your comments in the TKD/bunkai you comment that

I feel that is something that is missing from Korean arts. I would love to see KKW put that into their curriculum. I enjoy doing it in my Shorei-ryu studies.

Perish forfend that people might actually, already be doing just that—Anslow, O'Neill and an increasing number of others—and calling it TKD; after all, by your lights, it's not really part of TKD till the 'KKW put that into their curriculum'.


Let me turn your own advice back on you: if you want to confine your TKD to what an instrumentality of the Korean government decides TKD should be, for the greater glory of the ROK, by all means do so. Just don't tell the rest of us who are trying to explore and expand the art (based on the technical core embodied in its patterns) in ways that seem practical and useful to us, that we're not doing TKD. We know better, eh?

 

[terryl965]

All I know the KKW is in big trouble all they have become is what the founding fathers did not want, a money hungry cyclone of destruction. I am KKW certified which means what exactly nothing because alot of the KKW guys know nothing but WTF style. No SD all sport that is what it hasbecome and will be. Sorry I have been doing it before the KKW back when it was the KTA.

 

[exile]

All I know the KKW is in big trouble all they have become is what the founding fathers did not want, a money hungry cyclone of destruction. I am KKW certified which means what exactly nothing because alot of the KKW guys no nothing but WTF style. No SD all sport that is what it hasbecome and will be. Sorry I have been doing it before the KKW back when it was the KTA.

Exactly, Terry, and that's the point. And we're supposed to accept the absurd premise that somehow the KKW owns the concept TKD and is the sole arbiter of what constitutes it???

As far as I know, the Académie Française is not at all corrupt, but they too would like to be able to decide what is French and what is not. Just try telling someone from a Provençal, Normandy or Northern Rhône town or village that they don't really speak French because the Académie is highly suspicious of the source of some of their vocabulary!

 

[miguksaram]

I realize General Choi was a junior martially to most of the kwan heads (for example). But he was 'elected' president of the KTA was he not? Would that not make him the de facto head of tae kwon do before he left Korea?

I'm glad you placed "elected" in quotes. Pretty much he was put in charge largely due to his military connections. In 1959 he was in charge of the KTA, however, that lasted all of 2 years at most.

 

[miguksaram]

I study TKD, from the Jhoon Rhee-Allen Steen line. Interesting side note. i started in "Tex kwon Do" as we call it in 1984, then left to join the military. I can back and picked it up 15 years later. And the neat thing is, the same kata were being taught. The same blocks, the same belt system, the same requirements for belt rank, the same forms, the same kicks, etcThe exact same structured cirriculum, basically un-changed (some minor drills were dropped and/or replaced by other training drills) for 15 years all without the the need for sending a dime to Korea.

Cool..Who did you send your money to? Which organization?

Another interesting side note:

The katas we do are commonly called the ITF, or Chang Hon forms. They are the ones Jhoon Rhee taught in 1959. WAY before the KKW was even a glimmer in anyone's eye, so the ITF isnt the splinter group, it is the original TKD. It was what was taught BEFORE the Koreans decided to re-write thier history and start building a so-called "national martial art(sport)"

Rhee was an original student of Chungdokwan's Lee, Won-kuk. Choi was an honorary black belt under the Chungdokwan. They taught shotokan forms. They were not the original TKD, because, as you stated, TKD didn't exist. Once TKD did come into their own, patterns were changed. Choi didn't like the fact he had no power or say so and split off with his followers. So again, ITF is a splinter group.