Kukkiwon restructure

[terryl965]

Does anybody here believe with everything going on that if the Kukkiwon stays, they will need to restructure everything and not be so Korean base to really reach there potential once again?

I know for me this is a very dark time for the KKW and it needs to make proper decission to rebuild it for the future.

 

[Kwanjang]

Does anybody here believe with everything going on that if the Kukkiwon stays, they will need to restructure everything and not be so Korean base to really reach there potential once again?

I know for me this is a very dark time for the KKW and it needs to make proper decission to rebuild it for the future.

I agree Terry!

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm praying for a positive change during a restructure of the Kukkiwon.

 

[Twin Fist]

Better question.

Why does the KKW need to survive?

no seriously.

what point does it serve?

how does it benefit TKD?

 

[terryl965]

Well for some like GM Kurban and GM Park here in Texas it keeps there linage going for there BB and there school.

 

[granfire]

Well for some like GM Kurban and GM Park here in Texas it keeps there linage going for there BB and there school.

I don't see where the lineage would be broken. The student/master chain is still intact...not like the history would be rewritten.

 

[BrandonLucas]

The lineage may not be broken, but how would rank translate?

Would everyone associated with KKW need to retest? Or would they be recognized as their current rank under other orginizations?

 

[terryl965]

I don't see where the lineage would be broken. The student/master chain is still intact...not like the history would be rewritten.

Because the linage would go back to a corrupt organixation, well I guess they will always have the Grand Master Society

 

[terryl965]

The lineage may not be broken, but how would rank translate?

Would everyone associated with KKW need to retest? Or would they be recognized as their current rank under other orginizations?

That is the better wuestion for those not liking KKW and there rank it is a black before dawn sceniro.

 

[granfire]

Because the linage would go back to a corrupt organixation, well I guess they will always have the Grand Master Society

I am blaming it on the early hour and lack of coffee but I do not follow.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Better question.

Why does the KKW need to survive?

Why does any large organization need to survive? So long as its membership is well served, the organization will exist unless external factors impinge, such as the Korean IRS. Can't say that I feel particularly sorry for the KKW leadership: they aren't idiots and they have lawyers, so it isn't like they didn't know this was a possibility. But as they say, you ride the gravy train until it stops.

Regarding the membership being well served, lets face it, the vast majority of blackbelts issued by the Kukkiwon are to suburbanite kids who quit once they receive the belt. They are well served: all they wanted was a plaque, a card, and piece of black cloth. They received it. Only members such as myself, who actually care about what those things represent question how well the organization serves its membership, and we're in the minority.

no seriously.

what point does it serve?

It serves to provide a standardized curriculum that every practitioner learns, so that a blue belt in any member school anywhere in the world will have minimum training in a specific skill set and a specific body of knowledge. That's the intended purpose at least. You and I both know the reality. If the KKW were to truly live up to its intended purpose, then my answer to your first question would be very different.

how does it benefit TKD?

Setting aside the fakes, scams, McDojos, and such, it benefits the genuine schools and instructors by providing them with a credential. Its one of the reasons I chose to study in a Kukkiwon dojang. Now, in my case, the quality of the instructor was first and foremost. Being someone who wants to open my own studio, credential is another little benefit that I can offer to potential customers. Some people have a mental need to see a credential from a big organization. Perhaps they've been burned, or perhaps its just the way that they are about investing time and money. So for the school owner, it does provide an umbrella so to speak.

Frankly, that is the only true benefit, though to be fair, in terms of operating a school and dealing with the public, it is a huge benefit. The benefit to the art is more indirect in that it provides another credential to legitamately good instructors who are spreading the art and keeping it real (can't believe I'm using that expression, but so be it).

The laundry list of problems is a lot longer than my post, and I don't pretend that they're not there. If the organization doesn't survive, then life will go on, we will continue to train, and schools will adapt. The public doesn't interface with the Kukkiwon anyway. They interface with the school. The schools will likely handle the transistion invisibly, charging the same fees and either finding another organization to be affiliated with (USAT anyone?), forming their own, or simply being non affiliated and keeping a greater portion of the testing fees.

Chances are, if the Kukkiwon folds (I doubt that it will), they'll be reorganized into or swallowed by another organization. The size of the membership alone makes it impossible to ignore, and nobody is going to let all that potential cashflow peter off to smaller organizations.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Terry, but I think I'm following what you're saying:

Your lineage is something you should be proud of. If you have received a rank from a lineage that later turns out to be dishonorable, in a way, it colors your rank as dishonorable.

I think that's what you're saying, Terry, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's something that I would be concerned about if I had rank in KKW.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Why does any large organization need to survive? So long as its membership is well served, the organization will exist unless external factors impinge, such as the Korean IRS. Can't say that I feel particularly sorry for the KKW leadership: they aren't idiots and they have lawyers, so it isn't like they didn't know this was a possibility. But as they say, you ride the gravy train until it stops.

Regarding the membership being well served, lets face it, the vast majority of blackbelts issued by the Kukkiwon are to suburbanite kids who quit once they receive the belt. They are well served: all they wanted was a plaque, a card, and piece of black cloth. They received it. Only members such as myself, who actually care about what those things represent question how well the organization serves its membership, and we're in the minority.


It serves to provide a standardized curriculum that every practitioner learns, so that a blue belt in any member school anywhere in the world will have minimum training in a specific skill set and a specific body of knowledge. That's the intended purpose at least. You and I both know the reality. If the KKW were to truly live up to its intended purpose, then my answer to your first question would be very different.


Setting aside the fakes, scams, McDojos, and such, it benefits the genuine schools and instructors by providing them with a credential. Its one of the reasons I chose to study in a Kukkiwon dojang. Now, in my case, the quality of the instructor was first and foremost. Being someone who wants to open my own studio, credential is another little benefit that I can offer to potential customers. Some people have a mental need to see a credential from a big organization. Perhaps they've been burned, or perhaps its just the way that they are about investing time and money. So for the school owner, it does provide an umbrella so to speak.

Frankly, that is the only true benefit, though to be fair, in terms of operating a school and dealing with the public, it is a huge benefit. The benefit to the art is more indirect in that it provides another credential to legitamately good instructors who are spreading the art and keeping it real (can't believe I'm using that expression, but so be it).

The laundry list of problems is a lot longer than my post, and I don't pretend that they're not there. If the organization doesn't survive, then life will go on, we will continue to train, and schools will adapt. The public doesn't interface with the Kukkiwon anyway. They interface with the school. The schools will likely handle the transistion invisibly, charging the same fees and either finding another organization to be affiliated with (USAT anyone?), forming their own, or simply being non affiliated and keeping a greater portion of the testing fees.

Chances are, if the Kukkiwon folds (I doubt that it will), they'll be reorganized into or swallowed by another organization. The size of the membership alone makes it impossible to ignore, and nobody is going to let all that potential cashflow peter off to smaller organizations.

Daniel

Regarding the purpose of the KKW, which would be to provide a standardized cirriculum, would it be such a bad thing if the KKW were disolved, and another orginization picked it up?

That's kind of the thing I was getting at in another post about the Olympic sparring deal...unifying the martial art. If there was only 1 orginization, then there wouldn't be such a need for overhaul for corruption.

Or even better, what about a system of checks and balances, like the US gov't? I'm not sure how it would work, but it's a suggestion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And we all know how well our checks and ballances work in government, lol. Part of the reason we're in our political and economic disasters: both parties are so in bed with eachother that really, nobody checks anyone beyond what they need to do to maintain appearances.

Which is what most big organizations do. To answer your quesiton, Brandon, I think that whether or not another organization picked it up is a good thing would depend upon who picked it up. Chances are, it will be restructured by existing members, ousting those who embarrassed them and caused the problem (i.e. the ones who got caught) and business will go on as usual. Just like the USTU to USAT transition. In fact, I'd bet that any transition will be identical.

I find that when there's only one organization, corruption fourishes, particularly when the organization is strong.

Make no mistake, the Kukkiwon will not die. I doubt that it will even be renamed as a result of this. Especially since it represents a level of national pride for the Korean Government. Lets be realistic: its their tax status that is being debated. I didn't see anywhere in the body of the article that the Kukkiwon would fold, even though it was strongly implied by the articles title. But then, sensational headlines with less sensational articles below them are not uncommon.

Daniel

 

[igillman]

I think that what the KKW needs are people who follow the tenets of Tae Kwon Do.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that what the KKW needs are people who follow the tenets of Tae Kwon Do.

That would solve pretty much everything.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

ok, since we have a good outline of what the org does, and why it is needed, the next question is is this org the only org that can do that?

the reason being, you have to know if this org goes away, will those functions be lost, or will another group step up to carry on?

mind you, i am not trying to diss the org, but an anallytical examination of the problem can sometimes show you the answer

 

[rmclain]

Well for some like GM Kurban and GM Park here in Texas it keeps there linage going for there BB and there school.

Grandmaster Kurban has a lineage that pre-dates the Kukkiwon as does Grandmaster Park.

I think Grandmaster Kurban gets nothing by being associated with Kukkiwon. By watching Grandmaster Kurbans's students, I wouldn't even know they were associated with the Kukkiwon, except that they practice the Palgue forms and the Yudanja forms (koryo, taebaek, etc.). The students certainly don't resemble what is represented as TKD from the Kukkiwon today. They are more like the old Texas blood-n-guts students. I imagine they are only involved with Kukki-won because of Grandmaster Kurban keeping himself under/associated with Grandmaster Park.

I think Grandmaster Park would be more affected since he follows the Kukkiwon guidelines now. He was from an earlier line (Jido-kwan), but dropped it in favor of Kukkiwon TKD - probably because JDK senior Lee, Jong-woo, was on board from the beginning on WTF and Kukkiwon. I have a copy of Grandmaster Park's student manual. Nothing JDK in there - just Kukkiwon.

R. McLain

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

ok, since we have a good outline of what the org does, and why it is needed, the next question is is this org the only org that can do that?

No. The ATA certainly provides the same function, at least in the US, though shifting from the KKW to the ATA would be a lateral move at best, and would bring a whole host of new issues. The ITF, I assume, does the same for its members as the KKW does for KKW members. Edit: there are also other organizations, such as the NPTA, that I know less about.

the reason being, you have to know if this org goes away, will those functions be lost, or will another group step up to carry on?

The functions being lost is not the issue, so much as whether or not existing ranks would be recognized by another org or a new org if the KKW were to hypothetically vanish or if one were to exit the KKW.

Since the WTF is a sporting body, its style of sparring and tournament circuit is independent of the KKW, so if members changed orgs, the WTF and USAT would be unaffected and sport TKDist would likewise be unaffected.

mind you, i am not trying to diss the org, but an anallytical examination of the problem can sometimes show you the answer

Any dissing they receive is, to a great extent, brought upon themselves. Once they lost sight of their original purpose and took advantage of the financial gains to be made by not policing themselves, they lost a great degree of credibility.

Truly a sad thing that we are even having this discussion. But we may as well; the execs at the KKW certainly should have and didn't.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Grandmaster Kurban has a lineage that pre-dates the Kukkiwon as does Grandmaster Park.

I think Grandmaster Kurban gets nothing by being associated with Kukkiwon. By watching Grandmaster Kurbans's students, I wouldn't even know they were associated with the Kukkiwon, except that they practice the Palgue forms and the Yudanja forms (koryo, taebaek, etc.). The students certainly don't resemble what is represented as TKD from the Kukkiwon today. They are more like the old Texas blood-n-guts students. I imagine they are only involved with Kukki-won because of Grandmaster Kurban keeping himself under/associated with Grandmaster Park.

I think Grandmaster Park would be more affected since he follows the Kukkiwon guidelines now. He was from an earlier line (Jido-kwan), but dropped it in favor of Kukkiwon TKD - probably because JDK senior Lee, Jong-woo, was on board from the beginning on WTF and Kukkiwon. I have a copy of Grandmaster Park's student manual. Nothing JDK in there - just Kukkiwon.

R. McLain

Realistically, if the Kukkiwon folded, GM Park could simply continue teaching the curriculum. If he likes it, and he certainly knows it, then nothings keeping him from continuing it.

That holds true for any school. I could, in theory, open a school, have no affiliation and teach taegeuk forms and WTF style sparring to my students, all the while writing my own BB certs, though I'm certainly not as qualified as GM Park to do so.

Daniel