Korean forms and applications

[StuartA]

Originally Posted by dancingalone I think the point of contention is if the creators of the forms in question say there is no intended applications in the karate bunkai sense, why go on about it?



I'm kind of thinking it would be like an instructor giving you something you never saw before and telling you it's a "Door Stop" to use it to keep hold the door open. Put it on the floor in front of the door and it keeps the door from closing. It is a "Door Stop" and it works to hold the door open. As far as you know that's what it is. When your instructor moves on you take over the school and the door stop. You have yopur students use it accordingly. One day a stranger from a strange land appears, and while you are using a rock to try and pound in a nail, he picks up the door stop, and efficiently drives in the nail because he recognized the door stop to be a hammer. Now, if the instructor never knew what a hammer was and didn't recognize tis thing as a hammer and did not know how to use it, does that mean it's not a hammer?

The above should not be seen as a slam on the instructor. Perhaps the most efficient way to teach movements to large numbers is though a stated application that helps understand the concept. The downside is a sort of tunnel vision and stifling of learning if you accepot that as the end f the story.

Yes, exactly. Funny you use the hammer anology as in my first book I used the quote; "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" to make the exact same point!

Stuart

 

[dancingalone]

Whether or not the KKW seniors recognized/encourage/teach additional applications in the KKW forms isn't the point. They exist. For someone to then extract these applications for their use is a positive endevor and in no way takes away from someone that doesn't wish to do so. And I will state that a KKW TKD instructor/student can teach/learn additional applications from KKW forms and still be KKW TKD. Really, does anyone see them revoking your BB if you teach that a down block can also be used as a hammer fist? As I've mentioned numerous times, a good instructor WANTS his students to grow beyond themselves.

More to the point, why would any art or faction within an art resist the art growing? Think about this for a moment. KKW TKD has a great sport element for those wishing that pursuit. It has a great kid/family dynmanic for those wishing that aspect of the art. By looking at more in-depth and yes...advanced applications within the forms you now have a fantastic SD element with locks, throws etc within the SAME art. Imagine...something for everyone within the SAME art. Why in the world would anyone resist this?

As has been mentioned numerous times, no one says you can't train bunkai using the KKW forms. No one is going to be kicked out either for training bunkai. Some people HAVE said they find other aspects of their training more rewarding and that they have no interest in studying applications the way karate-ka do. Some people HAVE said bunkai is not part of KKW TKD as currently framed.

How is any of that debatable? It really isn't. Everything else you're stating are just strawman arguments IMO, KSD. Things like 'a good instructor WANTS his students to grow beyond themselves' or 'why in the world would anyone resist this'.

Those who want to do such things, do. No rules against it. No sanctions coming down the pipeline for the 'heretics'. No need for anyone to say anything other than, yeah I like bunkai, but yes I understand there is no such thing as bunkai in the KKW conceptualization of forms.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Excellent example!

This is the point I've been making for many threads/months. Some have, for some reason, seen it as disrespectful to KKW seniors despite me stating that it isn't meant to be at all. As I've said many times, a person cannot teach what they themselves did not learn. And as I mentioned in a previous post, either they didn't know applications beyond the b-p-k model or some did know but made the choice to concentrate on the b-p-k model. That isn't disrespectful, that's just stating the options.

Whether or not the KKW seniors recognized/encourage/teach additional applications in the KKW forms isn't the point. They exist. For someone to then extract these applications for their use is a positive endevor and in no way takes away from someone that doesn't wish to do so. And I will state that a KKW TKD instructor/student can teach/learn additional applications from KKW forms and still be KKW TKD. Really, does anyone see them revoking your BB if you teach that a down block can also be used as a hammer fist? As I've mentioned numerous times, a good instructor WANTS his students to grow beyond themselves.

More to the point, why would any art or faction within an art resist the art growing? Think about this for a moment. KKW TKD has a great sport element for those wishing that pursuit. It has a great kid/family dynmanic for those wishing that aspect of the art. By looking at more in-depth and yes...advanced applications within the forms you now have a fantastic SD element with locks, throws etc within the SAME art. Imagine...something for everyone within the SAME art. Why in the world would anyone resist this?

Who is resisting? From what I can recall reading, even the people who aren't into alternative applications have said that they don't really have any issue with people doing it. The only thing people seem to resist is the idea that the alternative applications are the "original" applications or somehow secret, hidden, etc. applications that the founders were ignorant of. You now appear to be allowing for the chance that the founders simply made a choice not to include alternative applications when they formulated the Taekwondo poomse, which I think is better than making the statement that they were ignorant of them. You generally say that it's not disrespectful, just stating the facts. I would say it's not really a fact, but your opinion. When other posters made a similar comment about your ignorance of the Taeguek poomse you appeared to find that disrespectful. You can put in the disclaimer that you don't mean disrespect, or use expressions like "with all due respect," but it doesn't make it any less disrespectful in my opinion. That's like the Ricky Bobby Nascar movie. He says "with all due respect" and then thinks it's ok to say anything after that.

As far as Kukkiwon Taekwondo having something for everyone, I don't think anyone has disputed that. Instructors are pretty much free to teach the way they like outside of the minimum requirements. If someone wants to teach alternative poomse applications, or locks and throws, or weapons, or whatever else strikes their fancy, they are welcome to do that. They are also free to not do it if they don't wish to. Just like you (I assume) don't teach sport sparring or the Taegeuk poomse to your students. Teach what you want. If you choose to teach self defense through forms applications, who cares? If another instructor wants to teach self defense separately, who cares?

 

[Gnarlie]

Teach what you want. If you choose to teach self defense through forms applications, who cares? If another instructor wants to teach self defense separately, who cares?

Exactly. So we should be quite free to discuss here the techniques and principles illustrated by applications relating to any Korean form we like, without fear of resistance or reproach.

Up to now, this thread had been mostly about whether they officially exist or not, with everyone trying to prove everybody else wrong on a topic that can't be proven as it's not documented. Who cares? The movements of poomsae CAN be used as legitimate self defence techniques, is all that matters. Discussion of how harms nobody.

It's like we decided that we are going to open a dojang, then spent the first week arguing over whether the mats should be blue or red. It's a minor detail, open the dojang already!

Now, who's going to put forward a proposed application for one of my favourites, the covered pressing block, backfist combo from Taegeuk Chil Jang?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQH1cOQ6W_Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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[Kong Soo Do]

DA and Jaeimseu,

To avoid misunderstanding, many of my comments are rhetorical in nature and not accusatory.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Discussion of various applications found in forms is an educational pursuit that many of us enjoy and obviously passionate about. It just struck me however, that we may also wish to break it down further than the forms themselves, at least for part of this discussion. We all do line drills of one sort or another i.e. high block, low block, straight punch etc. Perhaps from a foundational perspective, we can also touch base on what these movements may be used for in additon to the obvious.

For example, in this and several threads the low block has been discussed as a very effective hammer fist to the groin, femoral nerve etc. It has also be discussed as an effective forearm jam/half-spear and off-balancing movement to set up the opponent.

What do you see for other types of blocks, other than use as a 'block'? This then translates into a larger perspective of forms.

For example, a high block. We use this as a very effective forearm smash from grappling range. I think someone else described something very similar in this or another thread? What else can you use the 'high block' for, beyond the obvious?

 

[Gnarlie]

Discussion of various applications found in forms is an educational pursuit that many of us enjoy and obviously passionate about. It just struck me however, that we may also wish to break it down further than the forms themselves, at least for part of this discussion. We all do line drills of one sort or another i.e. high block, low block, straight punch etc. Perhaps from a foundational perspective, we can also touch base on what these movements may be used for in additon to the obvious.

For example, in this and several threads the low block has been discussed as a very effective hammer fist to the groin, femoral nerve etc. It has also be discussed as an effective forearm jam/half-spear and off-balancing movement to set up the opponent.

What do you see for other types of blocks, other than use as a 'block'? This then translates into a larger perspective of forms.

For example, a high block. We use this as a very effective forearm smash from grappling range. I think someone else described something very similar in this or another thread? What else can you use the 'high block' for, beyond the obvious?

I'd say that depends on willingness to accept the principle of using the chamber hand to block, stun or capture. If we're willing to go there, it works as a wonderful closed side upward smash to the underside of the elbow, or a strike to the face with the chamber hand opening up the neck followed by a rising strike to the throat or carotid area.

Thinking more laterally, I've seen examples of it used to manipulate someone into a standing position by pulling their hair, or as a fairly robust shirt collar strangle.

I have comprehensive notes on this very subject, and how the individual movements of the Taegeuk series relate to those of patterns in other arts. But I'm off out to the cinema now, so will update more tomorrow.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'd say that depends on willingness to accept the principle of using the chamber hand to block, stun or capture.

Absolutely. I'm of the opinion that the chambering hand (the hand that comes back to a 'ready' position on or near the hips) is not necessarily getting into postion for a block or strike, rather it has grasped something (limb, clothing) and you are bringing that object back into your center to off-balance the attacker and futher set him up for a follow up strike.

I have comprehensive notes on this very subject, and how the individual movements of the Taegeuk series relate to those of patterns in other arts. But I'm off out to the cinema now, so will update more tomorrow.

Excellent, I would love to see this.

 

[shesulsa]

Absolutely. I'm of the opinion that the chambering hand (the hand that comes back to a 'ready' position on or near the hips) is not necessarily getting into postion for a block or strike, rather it has grasped something (limb, clothing) and you are bringing that object back into your center to off-balance the attacker and futher set him up for a follow up strike.

I guess I'm confounded why anyone would (A) limit themselves to one application as the definitive go-to move when in a self-defense application one would be better prepared to leave the options open and (b) feel villified in arguing application for said reason.

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[Kong Soo Do]

I guess I'm confounded why anyone would (A) limit themselves to one application as the definitive go-to move when in a self-defense application one would be better prepared to leave the options open and (b) feel villified in arguing application for said reason.

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I'm not sure what you're saying here? I agree that no one should limit themselves to one, or even specific applications. Now, having said that, we are always going to gravitate towards techniques/principles/movements that play to our strengths and even take into consideration our weaknesses.

This is one of the ways I feel applications can and do really have a strong showing. On the surface, we can see an individual strike, or combination of strikes. That's all well and fine, and may be the only thing to solve the issue. Below the surface, and by that I don't mean 'hidden', we can have an application that touches on some core principle. For example, the 'chambering' mentioned above. For those comfortable with grappling arts, it is understood how important the principle(s) of grasping/seizing/controlling can be and how they can be used. Once these principles are understood, we can use it at a variety of angles (both ourselves and that of the attacker), on the ground, a position of disadvantage etc. Just as importantly, we can use this principle to provide or create the opportunity to appropriately follow up.

For example, is this a low level threat situation where we simply need to grasp and off-balance an individual, possibly for a transporter, pain compliance or control method? Is this a higher threat situation which may require a more dynamic involvement such as a strike/kick/throw? Put it another way, striking or kicking is a one-dimensional response to an attack. Whereas grasping/seizing/controlling provides a whole range of options which also include striking and kicking as well as a plethora of other responses. This then leaves our options open to a situation that could be ever-changing and doesn't lock us into one response level. And this is vitally needed due to attacker/subject factors, venue of the attack, weapon(s) present, number of attackers etc.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I love analogies.

Martial arts are for everyone. And, as long as a person is happy and content with where they are, then they are fulfilling the intent.
:asian:

Yep, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Earl Weiss]

For example, a high block. We use this as a very effective forearm smash from grappling range. I think someone else described something very similar in this or another thread? What else can you use the 'high block' for, beyond the obvious?

In the Chang Hon system we call this a "Rising outer forearm Block" it gets into amore interesting issue about the chamber for this block. In the Chang Hon system the Blocking arm is on top and in many others it is underneath. The different chambers lend themselves to different applications.

There are also references on how an open hand variation of a block lends itdlef to grabbing.

 

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[Gnarlie]

In the Chang Hon system we call this a "Rising outer forearm Block" it gets into amore interesting issue about the chamber for this block. In the Chang Hon system the Blocking arm is on top and in many others it is underneath. The different chambers lend themselves to different applications.

There are also references on how an open hand variation of a block lends itdlef to grabbing.

I did not know that about the Ch'ang Hon high block. That opens up a wealth of new possibilities not just for applications, but for comparing with quasi-parent arts.

Thank you for mentioning this.

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[Kong Soo Do]

Not exactly what I was looking for in an image, but it will do for a pinch. Different arts may call this type of block by different names i.e. middle outside block. We use this type of motion all the time in my line of work. If I can try to describe it in words; the chambering hand is grasping/seizing the limb (usually the wrist area) of the person and bringing it into your center to draw them in and off-balance them in a forward motion (for them). The blocking arm is moving in an arc, with the inside of your forearm coming in contact with their elbow. Then the upward part of the blocking motion is bending their arm in with their hand/fist down towards the ground. This then rotates their arm and upper torso away from you and places the arm behind their back where you can then put a lock into place, a transporter or pain compliance. This isn't for an individual who is actively attacking, rather a semi-resisting situation.

 

[Gnarlie]

That arm manipulation from outer forearm block is in my repertoire too

The above video contains a few ideas on the application of Shuto (twin knife hand block, sometimes referred to as Soodo in Korean arts). I attended a couple of seminars with Vince Morris, and he's pretty good on applications from Shotokan forms, which he developed Kissaki-Kai from, amongst others. Seminars were pretty hardcore, opened my eyes to the practicality of a closer range.

Some nice ideas that can fit with some sequences from the Taegeuk forms.

 

[Earl Weiss]

>>Gnarlie
That arm manipulation from outer forearm block is in my repertoire too

Vince Morris, and he's pretty good on applications from Shotokan forms, which he developed Kissaki-Kai from, amongst others. Seminars were pretty hardcore, opened my eyes to the practicality of a closer range.<<

Intersting that yoo call it an outer forearm block. In the Chang Hon system the thumb side of the forearm is inner forearm and the small finger side is outer. The block with the palm toward you as per the illustration is inner forearm. Shows how difficult these discussions can be. I was at a workshop with Vince Morris. He kept urging us to block harder ad then shared a story of a guy getting a massive hematoma from a hard block at a seminar. I felt his stuff had a more practical side than some of Dilman's stuff because he did not focus on realy small targets.

 

[Gnarlie]

>>Gnarlie
That arm manipulation from outer forearm block is in my repertoire too

Vince Morris, and he's pretty good on applications from Shotokan forms, which he developed Kissaki-Kai from, amongst others. Seminars were pretty hardcore, opened my eyes to the practicality of a closer range.<<

Intersting that yoo call it an outer forearm block. In the Chang Hon system the thumb side of the forearm is inner forearm and the small finger side is outer. The block with the palm toward you as per the illustration is inner forearm. Shows how difficult these discussions can be. I was at a workshop with Vince Morris. He kept urging us to block harder ad then shared a story of a guy getting a massive hematoma from a hard block at a seminar. I felt his stuff had a more practical side than some of Dilman's stuff because he did not focus on realy small targets.

Sorry, now I look closer at the pic it is inner forearm shown there! My mistake.

I had huge bruises after Vince's seminars. Lung 5 and rubbing point on the back of the arm just above the elbow, both lovely and violet.

Gnarlie

 

[miguksaram]

Obviously there are some that believe that Taekwondo and thus it forms/poomsae have no connection with karate and thus the historical basis I and others purport cannot be true - despite what we say or what evidence we give. Okay, so don't accept what we say (mine through much research) but how about the word of one of the most influential men in kukki TKD: Chong Woo Lee?

Here is part of an article with responses from Chong Woo Le regarding what 'KKW Taekwondo' was really based upon. I believe (and correct me if I`m wrong) that he was Ji Do kwan and one of the most (if not the most) important people in Kukki TKD!

Question: After the Liberation, did all the people who openedstudios do Karate?
Chong Woo Lee: "The basic movements, such as the blocking and hitting techniques, were identical with Karate."

Question: If that is true, do you mean there is no resemblance to our traditional martial arts forms?
Chong Woo Lee: “At a quick glimpse, it looks the same, but the basic techniques are completely different. Therefore, it should be determined that there are no similarities. Taek Kyun has transformed significantly recently.

Question: Is Karate the only martial art that had an impact on Taekwondo in the process of its creation after Liberation? No other influences at all?
Chong Woo Lee: “That is a candid statement. I am the one who wrote books bringing in various materials of all sorts, but now is the time to disclose the facts. All the masters who taught Karate got together and formulated basic Taekwondo forms, and I took a central role. It should not be a big issue now to disclose this fact, because we are at the top of the world.”


No offence to those who feel different as we are fed different things from different sources, but this is not an ITF guy or karate guy saying this.. its a KKW/Taekwondo guy.. more so someone of great importantance!


Stuart

Yes, GM Lee, Chong-woo was a very important person in not only Jidokwan history, he opened up the Jidokwan after the founder, Chun, Sang-sup was kidnapped to NK. He was the third Kwanjangnim of the Jidokwan. To list his role in the development of KKW TKD, would take more time than I care to invest. Yes, they originally based the forms of KKW TKD off of karate kata. However, with the Taeguks, they moved away from 'karate' forms and developed them do be more geared towards the philosophy and techniques of KKW TKD. I am not sure what role GM Lee Chong-woo played in this development.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is actually an interesting point. So.. they (in your opinion or by their own words) dont feel what folks term 'alternative' applications are relevenat..

It isn't really a question of the applications being considered irrelevant, but of how they are taught. KKW taekwondo instruction generally does not use bunkai to teach the applications of various techniques, but instructors teach technique and application separately.

It isn't that you cannot pull applications from the forms, because you can. A technique is a technique, regardless of who's forms it is found in. But the Taegeuk pumsae simply are not designed with that in mind.

yet they still offer the 'old' applications of blocks to punch etc. (which can be viewed via the KKW web site and numerous KKW books) - which funnily enough.. do the EXACT same thing.. meaning 'knifehand blocks a punch' 'low block blocks a kick' as the Karate (pre-bunkai) do - and yet, you and they feel they are not related, yet clearly they are because they both use the same techniques for the same (unworkable in real life) 'basic' applications.. so if they are in that respect, they are also in the research of boon hae (to give it it proper korean name)!!!

It isn't that people don't think that they're related, but that the forms are not broken down to draw out applications; techniques are taught separately from forms. It really is a matter of teaching methodology rather than relevance or relation between technique and application.