Korean forms and applications

[StuartA]

They've niggled at each other for ages, don't pick on this one incident and believe it's one-sided.

I dont need to look into their past. the simple fact one called something so -irrelevant to make himself "seem correct" speaks volumes IMO. Its not about history .. its simply about the forms (KMA ones) in question - the fact the poster (who I dont know) seemed fit to do that, shwos an insecurity in his argument!

Also, while you may disagree with what was said, surely you can agree that if you are going to talk about nuances, subtleties and techniques in a pattern then your level of experience in it is relevant.

Sure. But then others have said certain peoples experience is relevant!!!

Anyway as the poster is unable to reply to defend himself, maybe we can all agree to drop the ragging on him (regarding whether he follows the ITF tenets or not, still comes across as an insult).Disclaimer: while I have spoken to Puunui on many occasions, I haven't since his expulsion (co-incidence) and my defensive comments here are because I respect his experience and willingness to share the insights he's had from the founders/seniors of our art and feel that while he may be abrasive to some, that doesn't deserve attacks where he can't defend himself.

Im not ragging on him - I dont know the guy or gal.. i was asked to explain why I thought some deny the historical connection to Shoyokan and I gave examples from this thread.. its not my fault the guy/gal got himself banned!!!

Stuart

 

[shesulsa]

How about everyone takes a breather here and let's see if we can continue the discussion on a day when we can focus on the topic itself?

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[seasoned]

IMO Sanchin primarily is about learning structural stability through aligning stance, posture, and muscular tension. It also can be iron vest training which includes some aspects of qi building.

Agreed, plus harmoniously combining breath with all the above to form the whole package.

 

[StuartA]

Sorry.. a typo in my last post (which I can't edit) leads me to say.. how much experience within a form makes a posters opinions relevant or irrelevant?

My opinions here, are based on the ITF forms.. but I have some understanding of the KKW forms to a point.. but I think the general concensus for KKW guys (which, TBH is understandable to a point) is that.. if you don't train them.. you don't know them! I would however add.. in some of my books I included GM Park, Jung Tae's forms... and though "I don' train them' I immediatly understood them and those who have brought Vol 2 of my most recent book, will see I don't include them, where-as I did in my solo patterns books - theres a reason for that - and that is that they are too far removed from things we are discussing here.. but, despite things, I dont think the KKW forms are!

Stuart

 

[Archtkd]

Sorry.. a typo in my last post (which I can't edit) leads me to say.. how much experience within a form makes a posters opinions relevant or irrelevant?

My opinions here, are based on the ITF forms.. but I have some understanding of the KKW forms to a point.. but I think the general concensus for KKW guys (which, TBH is understandable to a point) is that.. if you don't train them.. you don't know them! I would however add.. in some of my books I included GM Park, Jung Tae's forms... and though "I don' train them' I immediatly understood them and those who have brought Vol 2 of my most recent book, will see I don't include them, where-as I did in my solo patterns books - theres a reason for that - and that is that they are too far removed from things we are discussing here.. but, despite things, I dont think the KKW forms are!

Stuart

We are hawking books now? How about buying an ad?

 

[Archtkd]

What about every KKW book ever released? The 2000 year old history thing!

Stuart

This subject has come up several times and the answer remains the same. The Kukkiwon does not deny and has never denied that taekwondos has ties to Japanese/Okinawan Karate. Here, once again, are some excerpts from the Kukkiwon master instructor texbooks, stating the facts. The discussion appeared in this thread. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/102926-Facts-Fiction-Lies-and-actual-accounts/page6


"... Modern days’ Taekwondo is influenced by many other Martial Arts. The most important one of these arts is Japanese Karate. This is because Japan dominated Korea for 45 years.

... The best place to start the story of the modern development of Taekwondo is just after Korea’s liberation from Japanese colonization at the end of World War II in 1945. In the period between 1944 and 1947, the five main schools that would later combine to become Taekwondo were opened ... At that time, these schools used various names to describe what they were teaching .... As can be seen from this names not much at that time was given to foot techniques ....

... In the 1950s, taekwondo sparring still resembled the system used by Japanese Karate: the entire body was considered a target and not (sic) a contact was allowed. That reflected the belief that Taekwondo was first and foremost a method of self-defense where the entire body was a weapon and that contract (sic) between opponents would result in serious injury.

... Modern days’ Taekwondo is influenced by many other Martial Arts. The most important one of these arts is Japanese Karate. Thi is because Japan dominited Korea for 45 years.

... The best place to start the story of the modern development of Taekwondo is just after Korea’s liberation from Japanese colonization at the end of World War II in 1945. In the period between 1944 and 1947, the five main schools that would later combine to become Taekwondo were opened ... At that time, these schools used various names to describe what the were teaching .... As can be seen from this names not much at that time was given to foot techniques ....

... In the 1950s, taekwondo sparring still resembled the system used by Japanese Karate: the entire body was considered a target and not (sic) a contact was allowed. That reflected the belief that Taekwondo was first and foremost a method of self-defense where the entire body was a weapon and that contract (sic) between opponents would result in serious injury.

... In the early 1960s, however, some Taekwondo leaders started to experiment with a radical system that would result in the development of a new martial sport different from anything ever seen before. This new martial sport would bear some important similarities to the traditional Korean game, taekkyon .... "

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sorry.. a typo in my last post (which I can't edit) leads me to say.. how much experience within a form makes a posters opinions relevant or irrelevant?

My opinions here, are based on the ITF forms.. but I have some understanding of the KKW forms to a point.. but I think the general concensus for KKW guys (which, TBH is understandable to a point) is that.. if you don't train them.. you don't know them! I would however add.. in some of my books I included GM Park, Jung Tae's forms... and though "I don' train them' I immediatly understood them and those who have brought Vol 2 of my most recent book, will see I don't include them, where-as I did in my solo patterns books - theres a reason for that - and that is that they are too far removed from things we are discussing here.. but, despite things, I dont think the KKW forms are!

Stuart

We are hawking books now? How about buying an ad?

I don't really think he's trying to sell books with that statement, and I doubt you really think he is. Hell, I've made mention of my own books a time or two, and certainly never expected anybody to buy them based on those mentions. He's merely trying to show (I think) that he's spent a fair bit of time studying this subject.

On a general note, and specifically NOT referring to any individual poster:
I think we all would be well advised to take a step back, take a minute to inhale deeply, let it out slowly, and relax. The potshots are not going to do anything useful.

 

[Archtkd]

I don't really think he's trying to sell books with that statement, and I doubt you really think he is. Hell, I've made mention of my own books a time or two, and certainly never expected anybody to buy them based on those mentions. He's merely trying to show (I think) that he's spent a fair bit of time studying this subject.

On a general note, and specifically NOT referring to any individual poster:
I think we all would be well advised to take a step back, take a minute to inhale deeply, let it out slowly, and relax. The potshots are not going to do anything useful.

I don't want to make this a big deal, but I really was asking a legit question, albeit bluntly?

 

[shesulsa]

I don't want to make this a big deal, but I really was asking a legit question, albeit bluntly?

And how does that question help in the thread topic, exactly?

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[Gnarlie]

This thread is for the discussion of any/all Korean forms and the applications you as an instructor and/or student teach or have been taught associated with them. No right or wrong answers. Post a video or link to the form you'd like to discuss and give us a post describing what you believe to be the application associated with the movement segment in question. Thank you in advance for staying on topic and respecting others opinions, experience and training.

Just to remind everyone what the original thread theme was, so we can all stay on topic.
The thread is not for arguing the case for or against the existence of applications in KMA. It's for posting examples of those applications that you teach or have taught. Conversations about the existence or otherwise of applications have become repetitive and are not adding anything constructive or educational to the thread.

Many posts ago, I posted a number of links to videos suggesting applications for the Taegeuk and KKW Yudanja Poomsae. Nobody has commented on any of those suggestions. It seems people here don't actually want positive constructive conversation about applications, they just want to be right and prove other people wrong. This kind of divisive attitude is one of the reasons why TKD is in the fragmented state that it is in today.

I wish people wouldn't stick so dogmatically to their opinions, would open their minds and concede the possibility that another opinion might have value.

Call me when the arguments are over, I'll be over here in the corner.

Gnarlie

 

[StuartA]

We are hawking books now? How about buying an ad?

Eh! I wasnt trying to 'hawk' any books.. it was a point to do with the dicussion is all - if that breaks the TOS, then a mod can/should delete it, as that wasnt my intention at all!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

This subject has come up several times and the answer remains the same. The Kukkiwon does not deny and has never denied that taekwondos has ties to Japanese/Okinawan Karate. Here, once again, are some excerpts from the Kukkiwon master instructor texbooks, stating the facts.

Well, I thought we (meaning this thread/discussion) wern't gonna get into this! But anyway, its good that at least one book (out of many) has a bit of acknowledgement

Though the same/similar doesnt seem to appear on the Official KKW web site: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/data/taekwondo_history.jsp

Stuart

 

[jks9199]

Admin Note:

Thread closed for staff review.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator