Korean forms and applications

[miguksaram]

None of this is disrespectful and is not to be taken as such.

Why would you feel I am being disrespected? Just because I question what is being said does not mean I am feeling disrespected, it means I may or may not agree with you or I may not fully understand what you are saying. If I feel disrespected, trust me, you will know, believe it or not, I have a tendency to be forth coming with my thoughts.

For the most part I take issue with people who tend to be definitive about what they feel someone else means or doesn't mean when they have not A) Spoken with that person directly, B) Read that was their thoughts or C) Talked to a reliable source who did in fact learn the information directly. As I have stated, that there are many interpretations that one can find from these forms, some basic, some outlandish and some in between.

While you may not agree with puunui's version, he is not wrong. He simply has a different understanding of KKW TKD than you do. I would dare say a better understanding of the art as a whole than yourself or myself for that matter. With that he is able to interpret a bit more into the form than someone like yourself, myself, Daniel and others on this list, who do not have the background training with many of the seniors and pioneers that he has had. I would hold this true to Mst. Weiss in terms of ITF TKD as well. I could look at Chon-ji and pick out what I know based on my general martial arts experience. However, he may come with something totally outrageous in my eyes, based on his specific knowledge of the art and its philosophy when dealing with its pioneers. Who am I to tell him that he is wrong, when I do not have any deep training in his art.

You may look at this post as me defending my friend, and it is, but understand that I would put up this same defense for others who have had extensive and direct training and coversations with the pioneers of their chosen art. While I may or may not disagree with it, I would not claim they are wrong so much as try to pick their brain as to how they came up with that interpretation. After all you want an open non-confrontational, non-disrespectful thread, then everyone (I include myself in this group as well) needs to open up their minds and ask questions more than make statements.

 

[shesulsa]

Why would you feel I am being disrespected? Just because I question what is being said does not mean I am feeling disrespected, it means I may or may not agree with you or I may not fully understand what you are saying. If I feel disrespected, trust me, you will know, believe it or not, I have a tendency to be forth coming with my thoughts.

Don't you think this might have been a polite caveat? a friendly reminder that he indeed intends no disrespect? People use this phrase all the time - why needle another user about a commonly used phrase? This is the path to trouble and seems to be directly disproportionate to your statement here:

For the most part I take issue with people who tend to be definitive about what they feel someone else means or doesn't mean

So without meaning any disrespect - whether you gleaned any or not - let's all take a moment and breathe, shall we?

After all you want an open non-confrontational, non-disrespectful thread, then everyone (I include myself in this group as well) needs to open up their minds and ask questions more than make statements.

If this can be accomplished without people directly stating that the opinions of others are not applicable, not valuable, not worth anything and punctuate this opinion with rank we are all supposed to bow down to and without personal insults, that would be the most desirable thing.

As a KMAist of another sort, I recognize that it can be difficult to reconcile the dichotomy of discussion on this board and the piety of our protocol. Please keep in mind that while we can keep this in place, MartialTalk.com is not a rank-shielded arena. It doesn't matter how many degrees a person has on their belt ... what matters is how they conduct themselves. And, gentle-persons, isn't that what it's really all about?

:asian:

 

[dancingalone]

While I may or may not disagree with it, I would not claim they are wrong so much as try to pick their brain as to how they came up with that interpretation.

Indeed. I was hoping puunui or someone else would post ADDITIONAL ideas behind the KKW poomsae. I don't care that they may be "crackpot" from other perspectives including my own coming into the conversation. It's hard to learn something new if we reject something out of hand, and considering we've been trying to get at the meaning of poomsae in the KKW universe, I think it's a shame we've lost a better source for that information.

The old saying about emptying our cups comes to mind. I enjoy talking about karate bunkai myself as evidenced by my choice to post a vid of Bassai Dai on this thread, but that's really not what puunui was discussing, something he went to some pains to broadcast. I think both KSD and StuartA have offered good positional statements but in the end, they're still based on training perspectives outside what puunui was trying to impart. It would be like me arguing that kenpo's forms methodology is all wrong because it does not fit with what I think Goju-ryu kata is about.

It's been said that knowledge and rank do not excuse bad behavior on MT. True enough. Bob's site, Bob's rules. I'll only say in observation that the better martial artists I know, not even knowing puunui at all or how he 'moves', all have quirks to them and it's a matter of taking with their idiosyncrasies in stride as you digest what you can from their offerings. I bet my own sensei, if he cared enough to learn how to use a browser, would get kicked off MT rather quickly, since he himself is a blunt man.

I enjoy reading most people's posts here. Just wish we could all curb our fingers at times. It's OK to not say (type) anything even if we disagree vehemently with what another person is saying.

 

[StuartA]

Obviously there are some that believe that Taekwondo and thus it forms/poomsae have no connection with karate and thus the historical basis I and others purport cannot be true - despite what we say or what evidence we give. Okay, so don't accept what we say (mine through much research) but how about the word of one of the most influential men in kukki TKD: Chong Woo Lee?

Here is part of an article with responses from Chong Woo Le regarding what 'KKW Taekwondo' was really based upon. I believe (and correct me if I`m wrong) that he was Ji Do kwan and one of the most (if not the most) important people in Kukki TKD!

Question: After the Liberation, did all the people who openedstudios do Karate?
Chong Woo Lee: "The basic movements, such as the blocking and hitting techniques, were identical with Karate."

Question: If that is true, do you mean there is no resemblance to our traditional martial arts forms?
Chong Woo Lee: “At a quick glimpse, it looks the same, but the basic techniques are completely different. Therefore, it should be determined that there are no similarities. Taek Kyun has transformed significantly recently.

Question: Is Karate the only martial art that had an impact on Taekwondo in the process of its creation after Liberation? No other influences at all?
Chong Woo Lee: “That is a candid statement. I am the one who wrote books bringing in various materials of all sorts, but now is the time to disclose the facts. All the masters who taught Karate got together and formulated basic Taekwondo forms, and I took a central role. It should not be a big issue now to disclose this fact, because we are at the top of the world.”


No offence to those who feel different as we are fed different things from different sources, but this is not an ITF guy or karate guy saying this.. its a KKW/Taekwondo guy.. more so someone of great importantance!


Stuart

 

[ralphmcpherson]

My instructor told me that our GM's teacher played a role in the invention of the palgwe forms. My GM and his instructors are very big on the idea of getting applications from forms and searching within the forms for additional information. I believe forms are much more than a heap of random movements joined together as an exercise. In saying that, I wouldnt know the first thing about taeguek forms as Im only versed in the palgwes.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I believe (and correct me if I`m wrong) that he was Ji Do kwan and one of the most (if not the most) important people in Kukki TKD!

Yes sir, he was Jidokwan.

 

[StuartA]

My instructor told me that our GM's teacher played a role in the invention of the palgwe forms. My GM and his instructors are very big on the idea of getting applications from forms and searching within the forms for additional information. I believe forms are much more than a heap of random movements joined together as an exercise. In saying that, I wouldnt know the first thing about taeguek forms as Im only versed in the palgwes.

Now that is a Grandmaster I would love to meet!
May I ask his name?

Stuart

 

[dancingalone]

Obviously there are some that believe that Taekwondo and thus it forms/poomsae have no connection with karate and thus the historical basis I and others purport cannot be true - despite what we say or what evidence we give. Okay, so don't accept what we say (mine through much research) but how about the word of one of the most influential men in kukki TKD: Chong Woo Lee?

Here is part of an article with responses from Chong Woo Le regarding what 'KKW Taekwondo' was really based upon. I believe (and correct me if I`m wrong) that he was Ji Do kwan and one of the most (if not the most) important people in Kukki TKD!
....

No offence to those who feel different as we are fed different things from different sources, but this is not an ITF guy or karate guy saying this.. its a KKW/Taekwondo guy.. more so someone of great importantance!

I have classes to teach so this will be short...

This really doesn't address the point made in my opinion. It is well known that the creators of the KKW poomsae studied karate. I think the point of contention is if the creators of the forms in question say there is no intended applications in the karate bunkai sense, why go on about it?

Obviously we can take the same Taegeuk forms and come up with some probably good alternative meanings for the movements based on principles and analysis derived from karate study. It might even be fun and worthwhile to do. But why the interest in pointing that out? I don't think anyone from the KKW side has said you couldn't. Just that it wouldn't be KKW TKD if you did, which is reasonable enough in my opinion.

 

[StuartA]

This really doesn't address the point made in my opinion.

It wasnt intend to! But.. (and apologies).. I missed whatever point your were making because your most recent posts were regarding a banned member, which I have no interest in getting involved in (thats the mods decision after all). So please feel free to make it again.

As far as the post goes, it was a general point for anyone who says "Kukki poomsae are different and not related to kata" - when obviously they are, and the post I made simply comfirms that!

It is well known that the creators of the KKW poomsae studied karate. I think the point of contention is if the creators of the forms in question say there is no intended applications in the karate bunkai sense, why go on about it?

This point has been addressed already! And is further given less credence by the recent post by ralphmcpherson, who says his "GM played a role in the invention of the palgwe forms and his ... GM and his instructors are very big on the idea of getting applications from forms " - like I said... what they say (as in your comment) and what is.. is in reality two different things.. it doesnt make them right I`m afraid - history speaks for itself!

Obviously we can take the same Taegeuk forms and come up with some probably good alternative meanings for the movements based on principles and analysis derived from karate study. It might even be fun and worthwhile to do.

Sure.. but its also not a 'fun game' - this kind of research is based on sound historical reasoning and sure, if you don't like it, thats fine.. but it cannot be dismissed with just a "GM So & So said no" type of mentality..

But why the interest in pointing that out?

A) See 2nd line reply B) Because many are interested in that area C) Because the historic facts speak for themselves

I don't think anyone from the KKW side has said you couldn't. Just that it wouldn't be KKW TKD if you did, which is reasonable enough in my opinion.

So SD type applications to the KKW MARTIAL ART of Taekwondo wouldn't be KKW!!!.. er, okay.. I can live with that, if thats what the majority of KKW students believe.. from what I`ve seen thats not the case. And apologies if those that study and interpret the poomsae make taekwondo less taekwondo and more martial in context, but believe it or not... some still like the martial element left in Taekwondo!


Stuart

 

[StuartA]

I think the point of contention is if the creators of the forms in question say there is no intended applications in the karate bunkai sense, why go on about it?

This is actually an interesting point. So.. they (in your opinion or by their own words) dont feel what folks term 'alternative' applications are relevenat.. yet they still offer the 'old' applications of blocks to punch etc. (which can be viewed via the KKW web site and numerous KKW books) - which funnily enough.. do the EXACT same thing.. meaning 'knifehand blocks a punch' 'low block blocks a kick' as the Karate (pre-bunkai) do - and yet, you and they feel they are not related, yet clearly they are because they both use the same techniques for the same (unworkable in real life) 'basic' applications.. so if they are in that respect, they are also in the research of boon hae (to give it it proper korean name)!!!


Stuart

 

[StuartA]

I think the point of contention is if the creators of the forms in question say there is no intended applications in the karate bunkai sense, why go on about it?

Sorry, just thought of this and it made me chuckle.. so maybe it will you too!

Saying what you have said is like me giving my daughter a car.. she cannot drive so she says "I will sit in it with my friends and it will be our social place to meet" and NOT use it as a car ... yet its still a car! So if she says that.. no-one should point out.. its still a car.. go figure!!!

Stuart

 

[ralphmcpherson]

puunui
Account Suspended

Seriously? Someone got butthurt and complained again?

I understand that Puunui offends some people, but the fact of the matter is that he's one of the (if not, the) most senior Kukkiwon practitioners on here with close links to a lot of kwan founders and Kukkiwon seniors (so he has a lot of information direct from the source). This is useful/interesting to those of us that are Kukki-Taekwondoin and I'm sure interesting to those outside that want to understand/know more about Kukki-Taekwondo.

How about everyone acts like an adult instead of running off saying "Miss, Puunui called me names and hurt my feelings, miss, miss..." like we're still in school.

If you don't like what someone says, post something to clarify it (if you're worried about others reading it without a correcting fact) and then drop it/ignore it.

Firstly, Im not the one who reported Puuini, BUT, I dont care how 'senior' soneone is, they still have to abide by the same rules as everyone else. He has continually been rude and obtuse and goes out of his way to stir the pot while those who disagree with him remain polite and well mannered. I dont know the exact reasons for his suspension, but I applaud whoever made the decision.

 

[dancingalone]

As far as the post goes, it was a general point for anyone who says "Kukki poomsae are different and not related to kata" - when obviously they are, and the post I made simply comfirms that!

Well you're jumping in late so understandably you're missing a lot of the context in this discussion which actually spans threads and months here on MT. You're taking the stance that the creators of the KKW poomsae studied karate and so as they formulated their own forms they inevitably also brought across the body of knowledge from karate and so the process of kata analysis can likewise be applied to the Taegeuk series. Am I right?

This point has been addressed already! And is further given less credence by the recent post by ralphmcpherson, who says his "GM played a role in the invention of the palgwe forms and his ... GM and his instructors are very big on the idea of getting applications from forms " - like I said... what they say (as in your comment) and what is.. is in reality two different things.. it doesnt make them right I`m afraid - history speaks for itself!

Ralph can jump in here if I'm wrong, but I don't know that his GM was on the committee that actually designed the Taegeuk poomsae. If he was, I'm sure he would have mentioned it before. And please restate for me how you have addressed the contention that KKW does not have the concept of bunkai. That if a person decides to study the Taegeuk poomsae in a such a fashion, no one is going to try to stop them, but they shouldn't say it is a basic component of KKW TKD. Are you able to come up with a quotation from GM Chong Woo Lee saying otherwise?

That's actually the main argument put forth that I agree with. I reiterate that of course it is quite possible to study the Taegeuk from a karate perspective. But that's not the point of contention here.

Sure.. but its also not a 'fun game' - this kind of research is based on sound historical reasoning and sure, if you don't like it, thats fine.. but it cannot be dismissed with just a "GM So & So said no" type of mentality..

Stuart, I can call it a fun game if I want. It is a fun game. It can be something else too practiced correctly. I hope I don't sound testy, but I am a godan in Okinawan Goju-ryu. I am well versed in kata and their role in Okinawan karate pedagogy.

But just because I am a trained karate-ka does not mean I have to translate my methods to other arts. It may be that the way YOU practice your hyung, applications are paramount. That's great and I support this type of inquiry within TKD itself, have even indulged in it to a high degree. But I'm not going to tell people that they way they do things is wrong or incomplete or whatever else.

So SD type applications to the KKW MARTIAL ART of Taekwondo wouldn't be KKW!!!.. er, okay.. I can live with that, if thats what the majority of KKW students believe.. from what I`ve seen thats not the case. And apologies if those that study and interpret the poomsae make taekwondo less taekwondo and more martial in context, but believe it or not... some still like the martial element left in Taekwondo!

As I said you're coming very late to the show. It's been said time and again that KKW hosinsul is practiced outside of the poomsae. The poomsae are not meant to teach SD within KKW TKD. Your mileage may vary when talking about other forms of TKD or other arts altogether.

So.. they (in your opinion or by their own words) dont feel what folks term 'alternative' applications are relevenat.. yet they still offer the 'old' applications of blocks to punch etc. (which can be viewed via the KKW web site and numerous KKW books) - which funnily enough.. do the EXACT same thing.. meaning 'knifehand blocks a punch' 'low block blocks a kick' as the Karate (pre-bunkai) do - and yet, you and they feel they are not related, yet clearly they are because they both use the same techniques for the same (unworkable in real life) 'basic' applications.. so if they are in that respect, they are also in the research of boon hae (to give it it proper korean name)!!!

I think that is just what they did back then. Similar to the rather unusable examples in General Choi's Encyclopedia or in GM Duk Song Son's books. I don't know that form applications were ever something considered on a serious level in early TKD so why should we expect the examples to be realistic or workable?

Bunkai just wasn't there. Now sure you can retrofit it, as you do, and come up with something cool and useful. It doesn't mean it was there in the first place. Itosu's magical methods in the Pinan kata don't automatically translate to the Taegeuks just because the inventors added some similar sequences in a few spots. It takes a person intentionally training so to bring them out, and in this case, apparently the creators of the forms say they never added such a layer of meaning into their creation.

It's like people adding in all kinds of allegory and such to a novel when the writer says he never intended such. Who is right?

Saying what you have said is like me giving my daughter a car.. she cannot drive so she says "I will sit in it with my friends and it will be our social place to meet" and NOT use it as a car ... yet its still a car! So if she says that.. no-one should point out.. its still a car.. go figure!!!

I like my novel analogy better.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

You are correct dancingalone, my GM's teacher was the one on the commitee who deigned the palgwes, not my GM. My instructor has discussed it with me a few times but my GM has retired and i would be lucky if i saw him once a year and his english is very poor so its not something ive been fortunate enough to discuss with him one on one as he had retired before i even started tkd.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Originally Posted by dancingalone I think the point of contention is if the creators of the forms in question say there is no intended applications in the karate bunkai sense, why go on about it?

Sorry, just thought of this and it made me chuckle.. so maybe it will you too!

Saying what you have said is like me giving my daughter a car.. she cannot drive so she says "I will sit in it with my friends and it will be our social place to meet" and NOT use it as a car ... yet its still a car! So if she says that.. no-one should point out.. its still a car.. go figure!!!

Stuart

I'm kind of thinking it would be like an instructor giving you something you never saw before and telling you it's a "Door Stop" to use it to keep hold the door open. Put it on the floor in front of the door and it keeps the door from closing. It is a "Door Stop" and it works to hold the door open. As far as you know that's what it is. When your instructor moves on you take over the school and the door stop. You have yopur students use it accordingly. One day a stranger from a strange land appears, and while you are using a rock to try and pound in a nail, he picks up the door stop, and efficiently drives in the nail because he recognized the door stop to be a hammer. Now, if the instructor never knew what a hammer was and didn't recognize tis thing as a hammer and did not know how to use it, does that mean it's not a hammer?

The above should not be seen as a slam on the instructor. Perhaps the most efficient way to teach movements to large numbers is though a stated application that helps understand the concept. The downside is a sort of tunnel vision and stifling of learning if you accepot that as the end f the story.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm kind of thinking it would be like an instructor giving you something you never saw before and telling you it's a "Door Stop" to use it to keep hold the door open. Put it on the floor in front of the door and it keeps the door from closing. It is a "Door Stop" and it works to hold the door open. As far as you know that's what it is. When your instructor moves on you take over the school and the door stop. You have yopur students use it accordingly. One day a stranger from a strange land appears, and while you are using a rock to try and pound in a nail, he picks up the door stop, and efficiently drives in the nail because he recognized the door stop to be a hammer. Now, if the instructor never knew what a hammer was and didn't recognize tis thing as a hammer and did not know how to use it, does that mean it's not a hammer?

This my favorite analogy of all time. For the next 24 hours, at the very minimum.

The above should not be seen as a slam on the instructor. Perhaps the most efficient way to teach movements to large numbers is though a stated application that helps understand the concept. The downside is a sort of tunnel vision and stifling of learning if you accepot that as the end f the story.

By and large, this is how we teach. We teach techniques (either as individual techniques/combos or as part of a kata/hyung/tul/poomsae/pattern/cookie cutter/psychotic dream/divine inspiration) and give one, maybe two examples of how they could be used. Eventually, we expect to see the student come to the realization that these examples are just that - examples. Not the be all and end all of how that movement can be used.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Well you're jumping in late so understandably you're missing a lot of the context in this discussion which actually spans threads and months here on MT. You're taking the stance that the creators of the KKW poomsae studied karate and so as they formulated their own forms they inevitably also brought across the body of knowledge from karate and so the process of kata analysis can likewise be applied to the Taegeuk series. Am I right?




Ralph can jump in here if I'm wrong, but I don't know that his GM was on the committee that actually designed the Taegeuk poomsae. If he was, I'm sure he would have mentioned it before. And please restate for me how you have addressed the contention that KKW does not have the concept of bunkai. That if a person decides to study the Taegeuk poomsae in a such a fashion, no one is going to try to stop them, but they shouldn't say it is a basic component of KKW TKD. Are you able to come up with a quotation from GM Chong Woo Lee saying otherwise?

That's actually the main argument put forth that I agree with. I reiterate that of course it is quite possible to study the Taegeuk from a karate perspective. But that's not the point of contention here.



Stuart, I can call it a fun game if I want. It is a fun game. It can be something else too practiced correctly. I hope I don't sound testy, but I am a godan in Okinawan Goju-ryu. I am well versed in kata and their role in Okinawan karate pedagogy.

But just because I am a trained karate-ka does not mean I have to translate my methods to other arts. It may be that the way YOU practice your hyung, applications are paramount. That's great and I support this type of inquiry within TKD itself, have even indulged in it to a high degree. But I'm not going to tell people that they way they do things is wrong or incomplete or whatever else.



As I said you're coming very late to the show. It's been said time and again that KKW hosinsul is practiced outside of the poomsae. The poomsae are not meant to teach SD within KKW TKD. Your mileage may vary when talking about other forms of TKD or other arts altogether.



I think that is just what they did back then. Similar to the rather unusable examples in General Choi's Encyclopedia or in GM Duk Song Son's books. I don't know that form applications were ever something considered on a serious level in early TKD so why should we expect the examples to be realistic or workable?

Bunkai just wasn't there. Now sure you can retrofit it, as you do, and come up with something cool and useful. It doesn't mean it was there in the first place. Itosu's magical methods in the Pinan kata don't automatically translate to the Taegeuks just because the inventors added some similar sequences in a few spots. It takes a person intentionally training so to bring them out, and in this case, apparently the creators of the forms say they never added such a layer of meaning into their creation.

It's like people adding in all kinds of allegory and such to a novel when the writer says he never intended such. Who is right?



I like my novel analogy better.

I like your novel analogy.

I'm wondering if this discussion of applications or meanings might be similar to homophones in language. An English speaker would tell you that the "moon" is the thing you see in the sky at night. A Korean speaker would tell you it is the door. They would both be right, from their own point of view. The sound of the word is virtually identical, but carries different meanings depending on who hears it. So, depending on where a person is coming from, the meanings or applications could be different. A Karate guy is likely to interpret the movement from a Karate perspective, while a Kukki taekwondo guy will do the same from his own perspective.

In this way, alternative meanings may be possible, but they aren't necessarily "correct" within the context of a particular art. So, you can say that "moon" is that bright thing in the night sky, but if you do, then you aren't speaking Korean anymore.

I hope this doesn't read strange. This newborn has got me up at all hours...

 

[seasoned]

I love analogies.

Martial arts are for everyone. And, as long as a person is happy and content with where they are, then they are fulfilling the intent.
I feel that the intent is the same with all arts, and that is preservation. "The passing of information", over many life times.
I know I shouldn't speak for other arts, but IMHO, you don't learn to forget, but you learn to pass it on.

Centuries ago, preservation, was word of mouth, and also forms, (kata).
I can speak for Okinawan GoJu in that, then, books were not the means. Oh, information was written down on paper, as well as in the mind of the practitioner, but that information was guarded and not readily given away. You see, to the Okinawan's, Okinawan te was a life preservation art, and as poor farming people, they had little to offer. Little to call their own, except a unique means of guarding their homeland from foreign invaders, and that means, was looked upon as a national treasure. In the passing of time this national treasure became known as Okinawan GoJo.

The devastation from the latter part of WW2, left 1/3 of the Okinawan's dead, and much of what was written about their national treasure destroyed. This art, in order to survive intact, was gathered together by a hand full of karate ka that would become the keepers of this art.

I mention the above only as a back drop to explain what I think may be in the minds of kata based contributor of this thread. You see, Okinawan GoJu, when first presented outside of Okinawa, in the early turn of the 19th century was said to be to harsh as the art it was, and therefor was presented by invitation, has a block, punch, and kicking art. All other manor of technique, which was the true national treasure, was well hidden within the kata, for future practitioners with a pure heart, to find for them self.

Now, is the above message for everybody, no. This is what makes martial arts "for, everyone". Live and let live, train and let train, and share when asked, in a spirit of humility. And this is how the arts will be there in many forms, with something for everyone.:asian:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm kind of thinking it would be like an instructor giving you something you never saw before and telling you it's a "Door Stop" to use it to keep hold the door open. Put it on the floor in front of the door and it keeps the door from closing. It is a "Door Stop" and it works to hold the door open. As far as you know that's what it is. When your instructor moves on you take over the school and the door stop. You have yopur students use it accordingly. One day a stranger from a strange land appears, and while you are using a rock to try and pound in a nail, he picks up the door stop, and efficiently drives in the nail because he recognized the door stop to be a hammer. Now, if the instructor never knew what a hammer was and didn't recognize tis thing as a hammer and did not know how to use it, does that mean it's not a hammer?

The above should not be seen as a slam on the instructor. Perhaps the most efficient way to teach movements to large numbers is though a stated application that helps understand the concept. The downside is a sort of tunnel vision and stifling of learning if you accepot that as the end f the story.

Excellent example!

This is the point I've been making for many threads/months. Some have, for some reason, seen it as disrespectful to KKW seniors despite me stating that it isn't meant to be at all. As I've said many times, a person cannot teach what they themselves did not learn. And as I mentioned in a previous post, either they didn't know applications beyond the b-p-k model or some did know but made the choice to concentrate on the b-p-k model. That isn't disrespectful, that's just stating the options.

Whether or not the KKW seniors recognized/encourage/teach additional applications in the KKW forms isn't the point. They exist. For someone to then extract these applications for their use is a positive endevor and in no way takes away from someone that doesn't wish to do so. And I will state that a KKW TKD instructor/student can teach/learn additional applications from KKW forms and still be KKW TKD. Really, does anyone see them revoking your BB if you teach that a down block can also be used as a hammer fist? As I've mentioned numerous times, a good instructor WANTS his students to grow beyond themselves.

More to the point, why would any art or faction within an art resist the art growing? Think about this for a moment. KKW TKD has a great sport element for those wishing that pursuit. It has a great kid/family dynmanic for those wishing that aspect of the art. By looking at more in-depth and yes...advanced applications within the forms you now have a fantastic SD element with locks, throws etc within the SAME art. Imagine...something for everyone within the SAME art. Why in the world would anyone resist this?

 

[StuartA]

Well you're jumping in late so understandably you're missing a lot of the context in this discussion which actually spans threads and months here on MT.

I am! Okay.. fair enough.. though I can only post on what I read on the thread at hand, not know that it spands other discussions and thats exactly what i did!

You're taking the stance that the creators of the KKW poomsae studied karate and so as they formulated their own forms they inevitably also brought across the body of knowledge from karate and so the process of kata analysis can likewise be applied to the Taegeuk series. Am I right?

Yes

And please restate for me how you have addressed the contention that KKW does not have the concept of bunkai.

I never said they dont have bunkai (boon Hae).. they do.. they show the same applications as the karate applications do ie. block a punch etc. Which was part of my point and pasrt of what you have just said above!

That if a person decides to study the Taegeuk poomsae in a such a fashion, no one is going to try to stop them, but they shouldn't say it is a basic component of KKW TKD.

I didnt (and neither did any one else I think) say its a 'basic' component. My posts were simply on the subject of those that say.. they wernt there at the beginning, when created so they cannot be there at all! Plus the KKW taekwondo poomsae have not connection to karate kata!

Are you able to come up with a quotation from GM Chong Woo Lee saying otherwise?

I dont have to.. I posted that to show the Karate connection that some seem to deny exsists!

That's actually the main argument put forth that I agree with. I reiterate that of course it is quite possible to study the Taegeuk from a karate perspective. But that's not the point of contention here.

Actually, seeking out 'realsitic applications' isnt really a Karate persepctive, as for nearly 100 years they did exactly the same and never looked into more than the P/K/B applications

Stuart, I can call it a fun game if I want. It is a fun game. It can be something else too practiced correctly. I hope I don't sound testy, but I am a godan in Okinawan Goju-ryu. I am well versed in kata and their role in Okinawan karate pedagogy.

I never said you couldnt call it a 'fun game'... I simply said for those that study this side, its not a game... it can be fun though

But just because I am a trained karate-ka does not mean I have to translate my methods to other arts. It may be that the way YOU practice your hyung, applications are paramount. That's great and I support this type of inquiry within TKD itself, have even indulged in it to a high degree. But I'm not going to tell people that they way they do things is wrong or incomplete or whatever else.

Where have I told anyone that the way they do things are wrong? I simply express my opinion on the connection and building blocks of all forms, which include the KKW poomsae. And nor is it about trying to force people to 'translate their methods'.. its simply information and evidence that points in the direction that they (the poomsae) hold more than is/was known... its not telling anyone they HAVE to go this route... simply saying that you can't deny it exsists is all!

As I said you're coming very late to the show. It's been said time and again that KKW hosinsul is practiced outside of the poomsae.

As it is in ITF too.. and even with decent Boon Hae it can be as well.. but that doesnt change any of the facts. Perhaps if better hosinsul techniques were found in the patterns earlier on, hosinsul would of used them!

The poomsae are not meant to teach SD within KKW TKD.

Again... this is because, when created they wernt really capable of that IMO... if they knew then what we know now, it may have been a whole different ball game. But that can change IF people want it to.. again thats up to them, as the poomsae certainly contain all the right tools from what Ive seen! What are the poomsae meant to teach then btw?

Your mileage may vary when talking about other forms of TKD or other arts altogether.

Not even sure what you mean by this!

I think that is just what they did back then. Similar to the rather unusable examples in General Choi's Encyclopedia or in GM Duk Song Son's books. I don't know that form applications were ever something considered on a serious level in early TKD so why should we expect the examples to be realistic or workable?

See, we do agree on something - I feel the same about Gen Choi's books etc. And your right, why should we expect to see more realistic examples - we wont on a bigger level, cos those up top dont wat to do or acknowledge this stuff - but it still doent make it NOT there! Like I said, research shows that this area is there and exsists for those that want it!

Bunkai just wasn't there. Now sure you can retrofit it, as you do, and come up with something cool and useful. It doesn't mean it was there in the first place.

As far a patterns/poomsae go - it wasnt there sure.. because you cannot add soemthing or not add something that you don't know about! As i have said already!

Itosu's magical methods in the Pinan kata don't automatically translate to the Taegeuks just because the inventors added some similar sequences in a few spots.

Yes it does, because its more than a few spots and its intrinsic to the way the patterns and poomsae were built!

It takes a person intentionally training so to bring them out, and in this case, apparently the creators of the forms say they never added such a layer of meaning into their creation.

On your first part - yes, of course, it does take someone to bring them out, as the P/K/B method is too ingrained and now we have new knowledge, but again, it wasnt knowledge that was there when the creators created them!

It's like people adding in all kinds of allegory and such to a novel when the writer says he never intended such. Who is right?
I like my novel analogy better.

I like Master Weiss.. as he has 'hit the nail on the head'

Stuart