KKW's GM Uhm resigns

[terryl965]

Terry my friend, do you not agree in the beginning it was a noble experiment to help unify TKD. I agree that with so many TKD schools teaching TKD-you are going to get the Senior instructors flair as they see it.

I know this is fiction but when Danielson says to Mr. Miagy. "But I do karate your way." Miagy replies, "Hi, but one day you do own way."

The concept was great in the beginning but like everything else greed took over and killed what once was. I believe in the system just not the men that run it.

 

[miguksaram]

KKW means very little anymore and for those that say other wise ask them this question what has the KKW done for you and your training.

What has any organization that you belong to now or the past done for you or your training? What has any organization that your instructor or his/her instructor belong to done for their training?

 

[miguksaram]

I agree completely. I am more proud of my "school" ranking than my KKW because it was much harder to earn. I guess what I meant was stricter in the fact that anyone can get a KKW black belt with someone else's signiture. I wish there was some method to ensure that those who really have a KKW BB at least met the minimum standards. For example, I had KKW ranking without knowing any Tae Guek or Pal Gwe forms (we did some sort of Chung Do Kwan forms... I was a kid, I don't remember them anymore.) Because the certificate has no real credibility there really is no point in having a KKW certificate. There should be something more than just the say-so of another ranked person (as much as I wish I could have faith in every one of my seniors, again we are talking about the real world).

I understand completely what you are saying, however this is not something that is soley being done in TKD. Now and days, especially in America, we see people getting promoted to high ranks in arts that they have real no knowledge outside of a couple of seminars and beers with the "grand master". So perhaps abolishment of certifications should be done away with altogether?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I understand completely what you are saying, however this is not something that is soley being done in TKD. Now and days, especially in America, we see people getting promoted to high ranks in arts that they have real no knowledge outside of a couple of seminars and beers with the "grand master". So perhaps abolishment of certifications should be done away with altogether?

How about certifications from the master who taught the student that have no organizational relevance? Then if the student goes to another school, that master can determine the skill level of the student, and thus the validity of the cert.

I realize that this means that anyone could then open a school with no organizational control, but aside from having paid fees, I don't really see any meaningful organizational control anyway.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

Two big advantages the Kukkiwon has over other organizations:

1. Headquartered in Korea, it can lay claim to being the mecca of World Taekwondo in the land of its birth. There is something very powerful about that.

2. The Kukkiwon, not being founded by one individual, can take advantage of the brain trust and differences of opinion that make it up. Organizations founded and led by one person tend to be held hostage to that person's ideology and way of thinking. It is no accident the ITF splintered after Gen. Choi's death-there was a power vacuum.

 

[miguksaram]

How about certifications from the master who taught the student that have no organizational relevance? Then if the student goes to another school, that master can determine the skill level of the student, and thus the validity of the cert.

I realize that this means that anyone could then open a school with no organizational control, but aside from having paid fees, I don't really see any meaningful organizational control anyway.

Daniel

Concept is good but here is the problem:. You certify your student and he comes to me. I feel that what he has learned is not black belt material at all, in fact it wouldn't be even close to green belt level. (extreme example for example purpose only). Perhaps I make him start over simply becaue I can get a few extra bucks from him with testing fees and such.

Anyone can open a martial art school today without even having any martial arts background much less organizational affiliation. What an organizational affiliation does for the most part is give warm fuzzies to the unknowing consumer.

 

[miguksaram]

Two big advantages the Kukkiwon has over other organizations:

1. Headquartered in Korea, it can lay claim to being the mecca of World Taekwondo in the land of its birth. There is something very powerful about that.

I'll give you that it is cool and does give people a since of foundation when they can actually see their history.

2. The Kukkiwon, not being founded by one individual, can take advantage of the brain trust and differences of opinion that make it up. Organizations founded and led by one person tend to be held hostage to that person's ideology and way of thinking. It is no accident the ITF splintered after Gen. Choi's death-there was a power vacuum.

This is true. However, just like our government, we need to make sure that we the people can be heard so that the leaders will start to make positive changes that are good for all and not just good for what a few of them feel.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Two big advantages the Kukkiwon has over other organizations:

1. Headquartered in Korea, it can lay claim to being the mecca of World Taekwondo in the land of its birth. There is something very powerful about that.

Very true, and that is very important to some people.

2. The Kukkiwon, not being founded by one individual, can take advantage of the brain trust and differences of opinion that make it up.

Yes, they can, but do they do so? Or more succinctly, do they do so in any way meaningful to taekwondo as a martial art (as opposed to as a sport)? With such resources to draw upon, I would expect to see the curriculum be more comprehensive, not less so.

Organizations founded and led by one person tend to be held hostage to that person's ideology and way of thinking. It is no accident the ITF splintered after Gen. Choi's death-there was a power vacuum.

Very true regarding the first sentence. I don't know enough about the ITF to comment, though I'd suspect that you are correct.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

But the beauty of something like the Kukkiwon is that I think more people are stepping up and saying "is Olympic sparring all we want to be about?" The Hanmadang is one example of people saying that World Taekwondo should be more well rounded.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Concept is good but here is the problem:. You certify your student and he comes to me. I feel that what he has learned is not black belt material at all, in fact it wouldn't be even close to green belt level. (extreme example for example purpose only). Perhaps I make him start over simply becaue I can get a few extra bucks from him with testing fees and such.

This happens already. I have visited kukkiwon schools who's blackbelts were not the equivalent of some of our green belts, either in sparring or in forms and technique. I read of it happening in non KKW organizations as well. Since this is already happening, I don't see where having the big org is of any advantage in this area. And your illustration proves my point: the caliber of the student and certification will be discovered, whether the cert is from the kukkiwon or from a non affiliated school.

Anyone can open a martial art school today without even having any martial arts background much less organizational affiliation.

As I said, this already is happening within big orgs; supposed masters without any real qualifications or substantial skills receive the blessing of the big orgs because of the money that is to be had by such people opening a school. If the KKW doesn't test the student in person, then really, anyone could be getting KKW certified simply because they're paying money to a McDojo grandmaster.

The guy with no martial background is actually less dangerous: he has no oranizational credential. Word will get out very quickly that he has no real training because it will show and the MA community will spread the word. Or the guy may be some bouncer who can really fight and simply had the brains to codify his fighting style, and might turn out some very formidable students.

In any case, there are plenty of papermills out there that will give an untrained master (or his dog) a dan certification, so the big orgs really can't prevent that anyways.

What an organizational affiliation does for the most part is give warm fuzzies to the unknowing consumer.

Absolutely. Why do you think I consider it a benefit to be KKW certified?

Daniel

 

[Miles]

Sorry, but I just do not see why a 'central authority' is necessary for a martial art, much less a 'blessing'.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said we are blessed that there is a central authority, I did not say a central authority is necessary.

In terms of technical development and street applicability, why does TKD need a top-down mega-organization closely tied, as Terry has repeatedly pointed out, to the progressive sportification of what was originally a battlefield-tested combat art—especially when neither Japanese nor Okinawan karate, nor any of the hundreds of Chinese styles, nor the Oceanic MAs, have such a 'central authority'.

I think this is the topic of another thread, but from the standpoint of technical development only, you should know that the KKW has a department which is constantly working on ways to improve the art, not just to make it more "street applicable." The KKW also has a department on how to train teachers.

The revival of karate's combat orientation is one of the most exciting developments in the MAs during the past decade and a half, and that was certainly not the work of any 'central authority', but rather the result of the initiative of gifted individual practitioners involved in informal networks of shared information and training with practitioners from other arts, in places like the UK, Australia and the US.

Exile, I am in no way criticizing or undercutting the creative innovation of Stuart A, Simon O'N, Iain A, or any of these other practitioners.

For my money, the work of Stuart Anslow and Simon O'Neill on realistic combat applications of TKD hyungs is pretty much the most revitalizing development in TKD in decades, and the KKW had nothing to do with that.

Agreed that their work is revitalizing and cutting-edge and that the KKW had nothing to do with it. But does their work minimize what the KKW has done-in my opinion absolutely not.

Exactly what has the role of the KKW been in the 'evolution' of TKD, then?

Millions of Taekwondoin practice poomsae which were developed by the KKW or its predecessor organization-the KTA. These same Taekwondoin utilize modern training methods developed thru the efforts of KKW. They wear doboks which are different (and better IMHO) than the predecessor karate dogi. The KKW has a curriculum, program for teaching instructors,website and has produced videos and training materials. This is evolutionary.

I don't understand why the apparent need to criticize the KKW. You are free to train in any manner you see fit or deem appropriate. If you feel you have a better mousetrap-that's fine. I like the idea that there are people of grandmaster status in the country of its birth who do nothing all day but try to further the art and science of Taekwondo.

I understand that some folks may not like the idea of a central authority. I further understand that some instructors like to issue KKW certifications without following the KKW curriculum or without regard as to whether the student is competent. These are not necessarily the KKW's problem as it assumes the instructor is stating the truth when the instructor certifies that student.

To the OP-sorry for the thread drift!!!

 

[exile]

I don't understand why the apparent need to criticize the KKW. You are free to train in any manner you see fit or deem appropriate. If you feel you have a better mousetrap-that's fine. I like the idea that there are people of grandmaster status in the country of its birth who do nothing all day but try to further the art and science of Taekwondo.

Miles, I too am reluctant to contribute any more drift to this thread, so I'll just say that I've tried to address this very point in another thread, in this post. If you're interested in the back and forth that led to all this, you should look over that whole thread; miguksaram also asks what you do, and what I've written is my best shot at an answer, and his responses are also very relevant to the point. And Celtic Tiger's posts, both in this thread and in that one, also speak to the issue. In a nutshell, I see the things at stake in fairly different terms from you; I've attempted to compress my take on it into that one post I've given a link to. I think that the major points you bring up in your post that I've quoted, and especially why I bring in the realistic bunkai-based curriculum issue the way I do, are addressed, at least broadly, in what I wrote there...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Millions of Taekwondoin practice poomsae which were developed by the KKW or its predecessor organization-the KTA. These same Taekwondoin utilize modern training methods developed thru the efforts of KKW. They wear doboks which are different (and better IMHO) than the predecessor karate dogi. The KKW has a curriculum, program for teaching instructors,website and has produced videos and training materials. This is evolutionary.

But evolutionary into what? For myself, that is a more pertinant question. Whether or not an organization is evolutionary is secondary to how it is evolutionary. I'd rather see an org be preservatory and do it well than see them be evolutionary and take the art in a detrimental direction. Not saying that that is what the KKW is doing, mind you; just speaking in general terms.

I don't understand why the apparent need to criticize the KKW. You are free to train in any manner you see fit or deem appropriate. If you feel you have a better mousetrap-that's fine. I like the idea that there are people of grandmaster status in the country of its birth who do nothing all day but try to further the art and science of Taekwondo.

Talk about a dream job!

I understand that some folks may not like the idea of a central authority. I further understand that some instructors like to issue KKW certifications without following the KKW curriculum or without regard as to whether the student is competent. These are not necessarily the KKW's problem as it assumes the instructor is stating the truth when the instructor certifies that student.

Personally, I have no problem with central authority. A central authority means that there are specific people accountable for bad decisions. It also has the potential to hold across the board quality to a uniform standard, something that makes a certification much more valueable.

But in order for this to happen, the organization must police itself well and maintain higher standards for certification than the KKW currently does. I see leaving SD and bunkai to the whim of instructors world wide promotes a 'lowest common denominator' mentality and fosters McDojos.

I hope that I don't come across as being overly harsh towards the KKW. I feel that there are things that they do very, very well, and their work in the promotion of taekwondo is second to none. They provide a worldwide certification registry that to some degree aids in establishing legitimacy of practitioners.

But the shortcommings are, in my opinion, biggies and need to be identified and addressed.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

Keep in mind, many of the Kukkiwon senior officials, my Instructor among them, have decades of experience in Taekwondo. By decades I mean 30-40-50 years experience. Many of the people who criticize the Kukkiwon for whatever reason have half that. It's just a little hard to take them seriously.
What would I do if I had a chance to attend meetings with these officials (and I have 25 years experience mind you)? Sit back, listen, learn, and offer opinion if asked, being careful to justify what I believe.

 

[terryl965]

Keep in mind, many of the Kukkiwon senior officials, my Instructor among them, have decades of experience in Taekwondo. By decades I mean 30-40-50 years experience. Many of the people who criticize the Kukkiwon for whatever reason have half that. It's just a little hard to take them seriously.
What would I do if I had a chance to attend meetings with these officials (and I have 25 years experience mind you)? Sit back, listen, learn, and offer opinion if asked, being careful to justify what I believe.

This is true alot of knowledge in these men, I do not critisize these men but I do critisize the actual business of the KKW. It has been well docrumented that funds are always not accountable and the scemming beside the curtain is terrible. Actual KKW is a thing of beauty, too bad we cannot leave all the BS home.

 

[slingblade01]

Keep in mind, many of the Kukkiwon senior officials, my Instructor among them, have decades of experience in Taekwondo. By decades I mean 30-40-50 years experience. Many of the people who criticize the Kukkiwon for whatever reason have half that. It's just a little hard to take them seriously.
What would I do if I had a chance to attend meetings with these officials (and I have 25 years experience mind you)? Sit back, listen, learn, and offer opinion if asked, being careful to justify what I believe.

Prehaps you should speak to some higher seniors than those in KKW, those that don't have to tow the party line. You might be shocked to learn that many of them are equally disgusted with the corruption, graft, and cronyism within the the KKW and WTF....that is, if you are interested in a different perspective form the more-and-more frequent criminal convictions, IRS investigations, and internal :wink: investigations.

 

[Gizmo]

Keep in mind, many of the Kukkiwon senior officials, my Instructor among them, have decades of experience in Taekwondo. By decades I mean 30-40-50 years experience. Many of the people who criticize the Kukkiwon for whatever reason have half that. It's just a little hard to take them seriously.
What would I do if I had a chance to attend meetings with these officials (and I have 25 years experience mind you)? Sit back, listen, learn, and offer opinion if asked, being careful to justify what I believe.

I'd say that repeating errors for say 30 years doesn't make them less important errors... just a general observation.

I've been in TKD for 22 years and if my white belt student who has more knowledge in organisational matters or more experience in running business gives me some advice on the subjects he's good at, I will listen and learn. Among my students, I have Muay Thai and Judo exponents, graduates of Academy of Physical Education with Master degree in sports and some succesful businessmen, and I learn from them all the time.

I spent a considerable amount of time with two KKW 8th Dan masters this summer. One of the subjects was the present day and future of KKW TKD both locally and internationally (but mainly locally). After a very healthy discussion one of the masters said, in his typical Miyagi style: "Your head, Master Kim's (=the other master's) head, same. No politics, no association, just your students and making friends". One of the biggest compliments I've heard in my TKD career, and it was despite the fact, that I distanced myself from KKW TKD (Master Pyo smiled a bit hearing that "my heart is TKD, but my sport is Kickboxing"). There was no sign of "I'm an 8th Dan you're a 5th Dan so you have to listen and obey" attitude.

 

[Miles]

Miles, I too am reluctant to contribute any more drift to this thread, so I'll just say that I've tried to address this very point in another thread, in this post. If you're interested in the back and forth that led to all this, you should look over that whole thread; miguksaram also asks what you do, and what I've written is my best shot at an answer, and his responses are also very relevant to the point. And Celtic Tiger's posts, both in this thread and in that one, also speak to the issue. In a nutshell, I see the things at stake in fairly different terms from you; I've attempted to compress my take on it into that one post I've given a link to. I think that the major points you bring up in your post that I've quoted, and especially why I bring in the realistic bunkai-based curriculum issue the way I do, are addressed, at least broadly, in what I wrote there...

Will do!

 

[IcemanSK]

Any more word on a successor to GM Uhm?

 

[terryl965]

Have not heard a word, makes you wonder though.