kiddy/fatty blackbelts (RANT)

[Sarah]

The point I think is being made here (of which I agree) is that there are instructors that 'look' out of shape (round) but can move incredibly well and are actually quite agile and fit, which of course would be evident from the first class you see...

Then there are instructors that have let themselves go (weather it be by choice or not) and are unfit, out of shape, do not maintain there own level of skill and are physically unable to demonstrate what they are teaching.

Personally I would not train under an instructor if they are unable to show me a tech, no matter how well they talk.

However, as I have said before, if an instructor is injured, they still maybe just as sufficient as long as they have some assistance for demonstrations.

So its more than just how you look...its how physically capable you are.

 

[tradrockrat]

The point I think is being made here (of which I agree) is that there are instructors that 'look' out of shape (round) but can move incredibly well and are actually quite agile and fit, which of course would be evident from the first class you see...

Then there are instructors that have let themselves go (weather it be by choice or not) and are unfit, out of shape, do not maintain there own level of skill and are physically unable to demonstrate what they are teaching.

Personally I would not train under an instructor if they are unable to show me a tech, no matter how well they talk.

However, as I have said before, if an instructor is injured, they still maybe just as sufficient as long as they have some assistance for demonstrations.

So its more than just how you look...its how physically capable you are.

Thank you for being smarter than me and so eloquently stating what I was trying to say. Wish I could have said it half as well the first post.

 

[arnisador]

Would you study Sumo from a fat man? Sure. I do think that much of it depends on how the instructor moves. I know some BIG guys who have adjusted their personal style for their size and can really rock. I know others who can barely move. If your art requires jump spinning kicks, it might be an issue. If you're a judoka, though, it could be an advantage (maybe).

I also agree that disease is a mitigating factor (e.g., look at Marty Manuel). Also, if the person is not an instructor, but is only training for his/her own benefit, then it's their business and I don't care.

But an overweight physician with a cigarette in his mouth is always a concern...but while the smoking is difficult to excuse, the weight might be due to a physical condition.

 

[Sarah]

Would you study Sumo from a fat man? Sure.

What you talking about...my Sumo instructor is a skinny white boy...LOL :lol:

You make a good point...some arts require size.

 

[tradrockrat]

Would you study Sumo from a fat man? Sure. I do think that much of it depends on how the instructor moves. I know some BIG guys who have adjusted their personal style for their size and can really rock. I know others who can barely move. If your art requires jump spinning kicks, it might be an issue. If you're a judoka, though, it could be an advantage (maybe).

I will admit that there are exceptions to every rule - and Sumo would be one of them. But then again, if I'm not a big guy, would a martial art modified to work for big guys be something I'd want to learn?

Nevertheless, you have a valid point

 

[terryl965]

Show me a pic of you, and I'll answer the question. But in the meantime, do you consider yourself fit? Are you physically able to demonstrate your techniques you're teaching? Do you still train on your own? If so, I seriously doubt your as round as you think - or more importantly, as round as I refer to when I say FAT MAN.

I've seen instructors who are clearly obese and and quite as obviously no longer actively training or practicing their art. Those are the people to whom I am refering to. Remember, in my post I said that I had no problem with instructors who carried a few around the waist - that's an inevitable result of aging. A ripped and cut body only means that he works out.

For the record, I am anything but musclebound or ripped and have always carried extra weight except for the few years I was kickboxing and competing. In fact my first post reflected that I won't step foot on the floor to teach right now myself! I sufferd a bad knee injury a while back and the pounds piled on. I'm currently fighting to shed the weight, but YES a certain level of physical fitness is required before I will take an instructor seriously, and yes I don't care what he has learned in the past cause he obviouosly doesn't care about the present - which is what counts to me as a student. He may know the secrets of the ancients, but if he doesn't care enough to stay healthy, then he sure ain't practicing them! Notice I said "healthy", not "ripped and sculpted".

I sincerely doubt you fall into this category of instructor as your posts demonstrate a keen interest and passion for the martial arts, which I believe to to be incompatable with the type of instructor to which I am refering.

All you need to do is look at my Aviator that is a picture of me with the twins and go to the Photo Gallery and look at all the pics. I have there as well. Yes I'm Fat 5'9'' 246lbs. that is fat but I still train and compete ay senior events all over the place, not trying to brag but i train atleast 4 hours everyday on techniques, unable to run anymore and thos damm oreo cookies are killing me, but we all have our weakness. Having corinari Valve disease there is only so much I can do anymore. NOT TRYING TO MAKE EXCUSES, just the facts.

Sorry the topic about obesity is killing me for it was not like this before the heart problem still kinda touchy over it as you can tell.

Your friend in the Art
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Sorry the topic about obesity is killing me for it was not like this before the heart problem still kinda touchy over it as you can tell.

Your friend in the Art
Terry Lee Stoker

Don't worry for an instant if some young person without life experience judges you as a result of a few extra pounds due to a heart attack! Take care of yourself and your health first. It doesn't matter in the slightest if medical restrictions keep you from slimming down to a muscle magazine cover model. You have my respect based upon the knowledge you have demonstrated throughout your posts, and I believe my respect at thirty-eight is far more valuable (and informed) than it was at 19 or 20.

I'm not knocking the thread starter once again - he's apologized for his blanket statements - but the title of the thread itself is not very kind. This has not been the greatest thread. However, I don't want it to die with anyone feeling run down because, despite their knowledge and dedication to the arts, medical restrictions prohibit them from the same level of aerobic activity (running, etc.) that they had at 20.

 

[tradrockrat]

All you need to do is look at my Aviator that is a picture of me with the twins and go to the Photo Gallery and look at all the pics. I have there as well. Yes I'm Fat 5'9'' 246lbs. that is fat but I still train and compete ay senior events all over the place, not trying to brag but i train atleast 4 hours everyday on techniques, unable to run anymore and thos damm oreo cookies are killing me, but we all have our weakness. Having corinari Valve disease there is only so much I can do anymore. NOT TRYING TO MAKE EXCUSES, just the facts.

Sorry the topic about obesity is killing me for it was not like this before the heart problem still kinda touchy over it as you can tell.

Your friend in the Art
Terry Lee Stoker

There is no need to apologize for your beliefs and feelings, that's what the board is for - sharing this stuff. Also, thanks for pointing out the Photo Gallery - I had never been there.

Finally, I am sorry to hear about your misfortune and I salute you for continuing to work so hard at your art. Now I REALLY wish I was as eloquent as Sarah. It may have saved us some trouble.

Anyway, your post just confirms to me that you are not one of the instructors that I mean when I talk about this, and as Sarah said, I'm sure that just watching a class would make that clear to any prospective student.

 

[ed-swckf]

I personally think that there are two different levels of overwieght being refered to here. A heavy set person may be an excellent teacher, a FAT MAN will not represent what I look for in an instructor. Physical fitness is important to the entire philosophy of the martial arts. Being fit doesn't mean you have to be ripped and 0% body fat, but if you refer to yourself as in shape because round is a shape - you're not acceptable to me.

With all respect, that is ridiculous. A lot of great teachers are far from the best practicioners - they are completely different skill sets. Maybe its completely different in your art and you need them do be at a particular level of fittness which begs the question, where do you draw the line? Where do you say that you are too fat to teach anything?

Why exactly can a fat person not teach you anything in any circumstance? I mean its completely up to you who you choose as a acceptable teacher but i am interested to find out why you feel they aren't a worthy teacher for you. I mean my teacher isn't exactly overweight however he is old and has a belly (at least since christmas) and also suffers from a back injury, he's not at all as flexible or suple as he would be but his knowledge is vast and he has a great skill of conveying that knowledge to others. But i'm guessing he wouldn't be a suitible teacher for you based on the things i mentioned about him, or is there some other reason the a "fat man" isn't a worthy teacher?

 

[ed-swckf]

Show me a pic of you, and I'll answer the question. But in the meantime, do you consider yourself fit? Are you physically able to demonstrate your techniques you're teaching? Do you still train on your own? If so, I seriously doubt your as round as you think - or more importantly, as round as I refer to when I say FAT MAN.

I just wanted to know how well the techniques need to be displayed for you to learn them? Does this also mean that, as someone gets older and slowly looses the crispness of certain techniques that may require a certain ammount of flexibilty, older teachers are also not a worthy teacher? Like i said before, the guy in the corner that trains the heavyweight boxer cannot do what the boxer does but he does enable the boxer to do it.

I've seen instructors who are clearly obese and and quite as obviously no longer actively training or practicing their art. Those are the people to whom I am refering to. Remember, in my post I said that I had no problem with instructors who carried a few around the waist - that's an inevitable result of aging. A ripped and cut body only means that he works out.

Ok, its hard for me still to tell where the line is drawn physically but perhaps you are refering to a catogory of people i have no experience of. I still feel that what you can do physically doesn't dictate what you can teach and get out of others physically. That is something i see being true of so much physical activity.

For the record, I am anything but musclebound or ripped and have always carried extra weight except for the few years I was kickboxing and competing. In fact my first post reflected that I won't step foot on the floor to teach right now myself! I sufferd a bad knee injury a while back and the pounds piled on. I'm currently fighting to shed the weight, but YES a certain level of physical fitness is required before I will take an instructor seriously, and yes I don't care what he has learned in the past cause he obviouosly doesn't care about the present - which is what counts to me as a student. He may know the secrets of the ancients, but if he doesn't care enough to stay healthy, then he sure ain't practicing them! Notice I said "healthy", not "ripped and sculpted".

But that means you would accept a teacher that can prance about in front of you and look good but really has a lack of knowledge of exactly what he is teaching and just works more on getting you to copy what you see. Personally if a big guy has been able to make a martial art work with his size, which i'm assuming can be a lot of hardwork then maybe he has gained a greater understanding of how it works - i know you don't care about any of that though. Perhaps it vary's with different arts and at the end of the day its your opinion and you are welcome to it my personal opinion is if someone can teach me something then i am open to it, there size doesn't matter. If it turns out that what they teach me is crap then again i don't put that down to their size.

 

[Sarah]

With all respect, that is ridiculous. A lot of great teachers are far from the best practicioners - they are completely different skill sets. Maybe its completely different in your art and you need them do be at a particular level of fittness which begs the question, where do you draw the line? Where do you say that you are too fat to teach anything?

Why exactly can a fat person not teach you anything in any circumstance? I mean its completely up to you who you choose as a acceptable teacher but i am interested to find out why you feel they aren't a worthy teacher for you. I mean my teacher isn't exactly overweight however he is old and has a belly (at least since christmas) and also suffers from a back injury, he's not at all as flexible or suple as he would be but his knowledge is vast and he has a great skill of conveying that knowledge to others. But i'm guessing he wouldn't be a suitible teacher for you based on the things i mentioned about him, or is there some other reason the a "fat man" isn't a worthy teacher?

Once again I think you may be taking what tradrockrat said in a different way to what (I believe) he intended...it is not about focusing on the persons 'fat' its about why they got to that point...ie; not keeping up there own training and level of skill.

Tradrockrat has agreed that an overweight instructor is not a bad instructor...its the ones that lack physical ability in their arts.

Unfortunatly this is a sensitive subject, and people can be ofended from it...but it is true that there are instructors out there that are not interested in keeping up there own knowledge and skill level and instead cash in on the fact they obtained a black belt 100 yrs ago but have not since done any learning, and chances are some of them may be slim.

BTW Terry...you are hardly 'fat'! You shouldnt judge yourself so harshly...im sure your wife and kids love you no matter what, and that is what's important!

 

[Makalakumu]

We love you too, Terry!!!!

 

[terryl965]

We love you too, Terry!!!!

Thanks upnorthkyosa and Sarah but by the satndards set forth I'm overwieght do I care not really I'll loose it when it happens. I know what I can and what I can't do and when the meet and greet comes this year i hope to be in tip top shape, of course to me that shape is round:ultracool .

I find it humerious at best when people talk about who and what they will train with, I know I'll train with anybody that has knowledge to past down to me that I did not know in the first place or maybe even different appoaches to techs. that I was not sure about, but that is me a Knowledge seeker always has been always will be.

Terry

 

[arnisador]

If that's you in the picture, I don't get what the fuss is about.

 

[The MMA kid!]

where can i find more information about the meet and greet?

 

[Sarah]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29997&highlight=Meet+Greet

 

[ed-swckf]

Once again I think you may be taking what tradrockrat said in a different way to what (I believe) he intended...it is not about focusing on the persons 'fat' its about why they got to that point...ie; not keeping up there own training and level of skill.

Tradrockrat has agreed that an overweight instructor is not a bad instructor...its the ones that lack physical ability in their arts.

Unfortunatly this is a sensitive subject, and people can be ofended from it...but it is true that there are instructors out there that are not interested in keeping up there own knowledge and skill level and instead cash in on the fact they obtained a black belt 100 yrs ago but have not since done any learning, and chances are some of them may be slim.

BTW Terry...you are hardly 'fat'! You shouldnt judge yourself so harshly...im sure your wife and kids love you no matter what, and that is what's important!

Yeah but like i said, teaching someone to do things doesn't mean you still need to be able to do them yourself. The understanding of a technique doesn't get conveyed by how well a teacher can preform it but rather how well they can teach it. I mean fair enough if thats what you all believe but personally i don't, i mean the style i train is a little different from your more acrobatic stuff but then again a know a overweight gymnastics coach!? To me the ability to teach takes precedence over physical ability, maybe its just me?

 

[Sarah]

Yeah but like i said, teaching someone to do things doesn't mean you still need to be able to do them yourself. The understanding of a technique doesn't get conveyed by how well a teacher can preform it but rather how well they can teach it. I mean fair enough if thats what you all believe but personally i don't, i mean the style i train is a little different from your more acrobatic stuff but then again a know a overweight gymnastics coach!? To me the ability to teach takes precedence over physical ability, maybe its just me?

I agree with your point, however I do think it is important that an instructor still has some level of passion about his own learning and continues to educate him/herself in their chosen art, and to do that (I would think) some level of fitness and physical ability is required. Im sure most of us have come across the instructor that sits on his butt because he obtained a BB years ago but has done nothing since.

I take instructions very well, in fact my old instructor said to me I take instruction to the letter. But I would still like to have my (main) instructor be able to get up and show me a tech rather than just try and explain it to me.

However, like Terry said, I would listen to ideas and theory from any experiences MA'ist, it is interested what different people have to say...but when it comes to the practical application of a tech, I want my instructor to be able to do it.

I have no idea how it works in gymnastics etc, im sure the coaches must be very good at explaining things, but you make a good point with that example.

 

[tradrockrat]

Well, let this be the last post from me on this subject. Obviously I am doing a poor job explaining myself. What I was trying to illustrate is that "fat" has nothing to do with it, except in that it CAN be a symptom of the real issue. That is why I said there is fat and there is FAT. I mean that one is a result of age, accident, infirmity, injury, what have you, the other is from laziness and sloth. This difference is perfectly clear to anyone who sits through a single class session when researching a school. This is my point.

A few examples - Sensei Hopkins, a personal friend recently passed away. He was in his 80's, and he was a master of jiu jitsu and a master teacher. He was slow moving and looked every day of his age, but he could still do knuckle pushups, and earned a blackbelt in the ABA shortly before his death, testing better than men in their fifties. You wouldn't know that until you saw him teach, but when he did it was unmistakable.

My instructor for most of my life - John Collins. He was overweight, two plastic knees, but walked everyday, trained as much as he could, and I have never met a better teacher of Bando - bar none. There was a time when he wasn't able to walk because they were replacing his knees. We trained in chairs together and developed some intreresting python (grappling) entries out of a seated position. He never stopped training.

Another MA teacher (no name this time) nearby where I lived was a high level blackbelt. He sweated walking up stairs, sat when he taught, didn't demonstrate techniques unless the student was absolutely lost, and weighed almost 400 pounds. His students were very sloppy, but he promoted them anyway. Now he knew TONS of facts and tecniques - talked about them all the time when people should have been training - but honestly, would you train with him? In the five years he used the same facilities I trained in, I never once saw a student stay with him to BB.

These are people that I have trained with and around. It seems that several people have been unable to get past the word "Fat" in my posts, and that I simply have been communicating poorly. For that I apologize. But in fact, the super fit "dancer" who really doesn't teach substance is also someone I would avoid.

And for my last point, I'd like to state that I absolutely understand the power of good teachers and their abilties to teach. Teaching is the highest calling in my opinion, and a great teacher can do more for his / her students than perhaps even you all understand. They can literally save lives and "souls". And, in fact, this is WHY I'm so adamant about a teacher living his / her word. If you're going to demand something from your students you had better walk the walk with them! If you don't you may be doing more harm than good, and that's literally a blasphemy to me. "Do as I say, not as I do?" I don't think so! I guarantee it doesn't work, no matter how much they know, and no matter how talented a learner you are. Martial Arts are a physical pursuit, a Martial artist should always be working to the utmost of their physical abilities.

 

[terryl965]

Well, let this be the last post from me on this subject. Obviously I am doing a poor job explaining myself. What I was trying to illustrate is that "fat" has nothing to do with it, except in that it CAN be a symptom of the real issue. That is why I said there is fat and there is FAT. I mean that one is a result of age, accident, infirmity, injury, what have you, the other is from laziness and sloth. This difference is perfectly clear to anyone who sits through a single class session when researching a school. This is my point.

A few examples - Sensei Hopkins, a personal friend recently passed away. He was in his 80's, and he was a master of jiu jitsu and a master teacher. He was slow moving and looked every day of his age, but he could still do knuckle pushups, and earned a blackbelt in the ABA shortly before his death, testing better than men in their fifties. You wouldn't know that until you saw him teach, but when he did it was unmistakable.

My instructor for most of my life - John Collins. He was overweight, two plastic knees, but walked everyday, trained as much as he could, and I have never met a better teacher of Bando - bar none. There was a time when he wasn't able to walk because they were replacing his knees. We trained in chairs together and developed some intreresting python (grappling) entries out of a seated position. He never stopped training.

Another MA teacher (no name this time) nearby where I lived was a high level blackbelt. He sweated walking up stairs, sat when he taught, didn't demonstrate techniques unless the student was absolutely lost, and weighed almost 400 pounds. His students were very sloppy, but he promoted them anyway. Now he knew TONS of facts and tecniques - talked about them all the time when people should have been training - but honestly, would you train with him? In the five years he used the same facilities I trained in, I never once saw a student stay with him to BB.

These are people that I have trained with and around. It seems that several people have been unable to get past the word "Fat" in my posts, and that I simply have been communicating poorly. For that I apologize. But in fact, the super fit "dancer" who really doesn't teach substance is also someone I would avoid.

And for my last point, I'd like to state that I absolutely understand the power of good teachers and their abilties to teach. Teaching is the highest calling in my opinion, and a great teacher can do more for his / her students than perhaps even you all understand. They can literally save lives and "souls". And, in fact, this is WHY I'm so adamant about a teacher living his / her word. If you're going to demand something from your students you had better walk the walk with them! If you don't you may be doing more harm than good, and that's literally a blasphemy to me. "Do as I say, not as I do?" I don't think so! I guarantee it doesn't work, no matter how much they know, and no matter how talented a learner you are. Martial Arts are a physical pursuit, a Martial artist should always be working to the utmost of their physical abilities.

What a great post so well written and it really put a different perspective on this thread.:asian:
Terry