Keysi Fighting Method/Defence Lab

[jobo]

Relatively yes. Now answer the question, why do it?

PuncheS that travel a long way are general more powerful than those that go a shorter distance, so why not just throw haymakers, lots of people do,

Well for one the longer distance takes longer to set up and longer to travel, so your trading power for efficiency, or a softer blow that is more likely to land as they have less time to move Or to counter punch

 

[jobo]

Thus my point about forcing, framing like defense does forces you to use less effective techniques.
There isn't at elbow strike to the head till the third beat.
How do you break a nose like that? The strike is under the jaw.

How is this better than muay Thai cover,elbow to face?

I missed and hit his nose

 

[jobo]

I missed and hit his nose

No one's claimed it better than MT,nothing is better than MT in my opinion, but that's not out discussion, which is the relative merits of bjj, and dl

 

[veritasAequitas]

No one's claimed it better than MT,nothing is better than MT, but that's not out discussion, which is the relative merits of bjj, and dl

No it isn't the point is don't you see how this is a stupid system that uses long format drills that have so many point's of failure there's no way you can do it realistically.

 

[veritasAequitas]

No one's claimed it better than MT,nothing is better than MT in my opinion, but that's not out discussion, which is the relative merits of bjj, and dl

Seeing as defense lab is based on inosanto jkd/Kali as well as bjj why are we not comparing that?

 

[jobo]

No it isn't the point is don't you see how this is a stupid system that uses long format drills that have so many point's of failure there's no way you can do it realistically.

If you hit someone with aBarragee of elbows followed by a hammer fist, they will be in pretty bad shape, so that's a realistic technique for self defence, you picked thatVid as an example and that example shows a practical and effective technique, even if the hammer fist at the end isn't optimal and from where your arms are after the elbows, there's a limit to what you can do very quickly, in the same place I would have head butTed him to be honest, but that's just my preference, But if I catch them with a good elbow, I rather expect them to fall ovet, so the point is open

 

[jobo]

Seeing as defense lab is based on inosanto jkd/Kali as well as bjj why are we not comparing that?

Mostly coz you claimed bjj, was better, and that what we are discusing, are you also claiming bjj, is better than jkd,

 

[veritasAequitas]

Mostly coz you claimed bjj, was better, and that what we are discusing, are you also claiming bjj, is better than jkd,

Because it is, the ground game of defence lab is bjj with skin tears and forced usage of framing

 

[jobo]

Because it is, the ground game of defence lab is bjj with skin tears and forced usage of framing

Well clearly the ground game is NOT bjj, or it would include that mount escape you keep going on about,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you punch someone repeatedly, they will sooner or later become complient, our lovely police force, use head strikes to force compliance on people who are resisting having hand cuffs fitted, They are also fOnd of hitting people with batterns, in the same circumstances, so both pain compliance techniques.

Three of them picked me up and swUng me in to a wall head first, and this dDefinitely made me more compliment

Not sure what any of that has to do with my statement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok what are the secondary defintions, that change the meaning substantially?

That's not how it works, either. Phrases, when used as accepted terms, have whatever definition they are accepted to have. That definition may or may not be tied to the actual definitions of the words making up that phrase. Words aren't numbers - you don't simply add them together to get a new meaning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thus my point about forcing, framing like defense does forces you to use less effective techniques.
There isn't at elbow strike to the head till the third beat.
How do you break a nose like that? The strike is under the jaw.

How is this better than muay Thai cover,elbow to face?

Instead of frame 3, upper hammer, frame2 elbow to body, to an ascending elbow.

Do you not see all the point's of failure?

I know the point you're trying to make, and I think it's a good one. But frankly in the chaos of a fight, things like this can be useful. Sometimes it's helpful to force a student into a position where you take away their "best" options to help build other options. Of course, if the overall approach (as you are implying) does this too much, then there's not enough training of the "best" options.

 

[veritasAequitas]

Well clearly the ground game is NOT bjj, or it would include that mount escape you keep going on about,

Except it is, its a mount escape with skin tears.

Except you dont trap the arm or leg you use pain and force to drag the person of.

If the person has base it posture it won't work, they will clear your arms and hit you.

 

[veritasAequitas]

I know the point you're trying to make, and I think it's a good one. But frankly in the chaos of a fight, things like this can be useful. Sometimes it's helpful to force a student into a position where you take away their "best" options to help build other options. Of course, if the overall approach (as you are implying) does this too much, then there's not enough training of the "best" options.

The issue is that its always from a viewpoint of the frames. It limits your choices of strikes dependent on which if the 4 shapes you happen to use dependant on your hand position.

This compounds itself when the system requires you to be in the frames all the time, so it makes you vulnerable to being leg kicked.

The long form drills also don't really prepare you to apply the combinations you learn on a none arm hanging opponent.

Its supposed to be a simple system that anyone can learn and easily use, but it becomes so convoluted in its concepts.

It prides itself on being non conformist and adds strange techniques that I have never seen in other systems and probably for good reason, like punching with the knuckle of the thumb

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue is that its always from a viewpoint of the frames. It limits your choices of strikes dependent on which if the 4 shapes you happen to use dependant on your hand position.

This compounds itself when the system requires you to be in the frames all the time, so it makes you vulnerable to being leg kicked.

The long form drills also don't really prepare you to apply the combinations you learn on a none arm hanging opponent.

Its supposed to be a simple system that anyone can learn and easily use, but it becomes so convoluted in its concepts.

It prides itself on being non conformist and adds strange techniques that I have never seen in other systems and probably for good reason, like punching with the knuckle of the thumb

I wonder if the larger issue is that DL methodology might be best suited for short-term training. Beyond that, with a bit more experience, you'd want to get out of the framing box and open up your options more. Take something well-suited for short-term gains and try to lengthen it without really altering it, and you start holding folks too close to the limited (and limiting) choices of a beginner.

 

[jobo]

Not sure what any of that has to do with my statement.

It has to do with your statement, that punching isn't pain compliance, when punching is most definitely use by the British boBby as a pain compliance technique

 

[jobo]

That's not how it works, either. Phrases, when used as accepted terms, have whatever definition they are accepted to have. That definition may or may not be tied to the actual definitions of the words making up that phrase. Words aren't numbers - you don't simply add them together to get a new meaning.

Well it's not by definition an accepted term as I Diagree, And seemingly so do most dictionaries, ,

In your new an unofficial defintion, what aspect of pain or compliance have changed from the dictionary drfintion and what is the new meaning of the combined phrase, that doesn't include compliance through pain

 

[veritasAequitas]

I wonder if the larger issue is that DL methodology might be best suited for short-term training. Beyond that, with a bit more experience, you'd want to get out of the framing box and open up your options more. Take something well-suited for short-term gains and try to lengthen it without really altering it, and you start holding folks too close to the limited (and limiting) choices of a beginner.

You're pretty much told to always over the head and never ever open up.

 

[drop bear]

Well it's not by definition an accepted term as I Diagree, And seemingly so do most dictionaries, ,

In your new an unofficial defintion, what aspect of pain or compliance have changed from the dictionary drfintion and what is the new meaning of the combined phrase, that doesn't include compliance through pain

Wiki's definition.
Pain compliance - Wikipedia

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It has to do with your statement, that punching isn't pain compliance, when punching is most definitely use by the British boBby as a pain compliance technique

Go back and re-read my comment. You've left out a word that makes a difference. Many words do.

Most techniques have the potential to be used for pain compliance, even if they are not inherently pain compliance techniques.