Keysi Fighting Method/Defence Lab

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts - General' started by Serpent Raptor, Jul 3, 2016.

  1. veritasAequitas

    veritasAequitas Green Belt

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    The issue is that its always from a viewpoint of the frames. It limits your choices of strikes dependent on which if the 4 shapes you happen to use dependant on your hand position.

    This compounds itself when the system requires you to be in the frames all the time, so it makes you vulnerable to being leg kicked.

    The long form drills also don't really prepare you to apply the combinations you learn on a none arm hanging opponent.

    Its supposed to be a simple system that anyone can learn and easily use, but it becomes so convoluted in its concepts.

    It prides itself on being non conformist and adds strange techniques that I have never seen in other systems and probably for good reason, like punching with the knuckle of the thumb
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I wonder if the larger issue is that DL methodology might be best suited for short-term training. Beyond that, with a bit more experience, you'd want to get out of the framing box and open up your options more. Take something well-suited for short-term gains and try to lengthen it without really altering it, and you start holding folks too close to the limited (and limiting) choices of a beginner.
     
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  3. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    It has to do with your statement, that punching isn't pain compliance, when punching is most definitely use by the British boBby as a pain compliance technique
     
  4. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Well it's not by definition an accepted term as I Diagree, And seemingly so do most dictionaries, ,

    In your new an unofficial defintion, what aspect of pain or compliance have changed from the dictionary drfintion and what is the new meaning of the combined phrase, that doesn't include compliance through pain
     
  5. veritasAequitas

    veritasAequitas Green Belt

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    You're pretty much told to always over the head and never ever open up.
     
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wiki's definition.
    Pain compliance - Wikipedia
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Go back and re-read my comment. You've left out a word that makes a difference. Many words do.

    Most techniques have the potential to be used for pain compliance, even if they are not inherently pain compliance techniques.
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Accepted terms need only be accepted by those using them. And since everyone else here seems to have a common understanding of the term - despite coming from different backgrounds - it seems unlikely we've all stumbled into the same uncommon usage.

    But go ahead and claim I've made that usage up. I'll be interested in seeing your attempt at logic in face of contrary fact.
     
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  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It still has to be based on something. I mean I could just train basics that would give a starting self defencer something quick to work on.

    But it is where the defence methodology isn't really grounded. So for example let's say that instead of putting some boxing gloves on, throwing punches and developing something simple to deal with that.

    We decide that a street fight will only consist of ten seconds of overhand right attacks.

    Then just like jobo mentioned you begin to have a system that leans towards a specific attack. Just like sport BJJ. Where you would spend time learning guard passes and submission defences you will probably never need.

    But instead of ever refining that so that should someone throw 10 seconds of overhand rights at you. (Because non consensual violence does not parallel consensual violence)

    You only drill what you think should happen in a street fight. Which then removes any real timing or feedback.

    Suddenly you have time to block that overhand and hit them three times in the arm before it comes back.

    And so because that would be the coolest thing ever. And because you are getting away with it in training. It becomes a viable self defence method.

    I think if you are just left to drill people go cray cray after a while.

     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018 at 9:34 PM
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  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So you don't like elbows from a distance?

    There are better things with more likley results. Than how to deal with a person who throws one punch and then staunchly stands there while you throw multiple elbow back fists at them.

    But yes uppercut backfists do work. They just don't work like that.
     
  11. veritasAequitas

    veritasAequitas Green Belt

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    Its an reverse hammer fist, you can compare it with an upper back fist.

    You can feel the difference in the structure of the arm,the hammer is an unnatural movement
     
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  12. veritasAequitas

    veritasAequitas Green Belt

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    That's quite accurate, the internal language is learn it were you learn the drill,develop the drill self explanatory, stress it where you do the drill under stress.

    Example basic frame one straight punch defense

    You learn it on pads, deploy frame one block with elbows.

    Develop it you keep doing it till it's in muscle memory

    Stress it, you do it against a partner hitting you with pads or gloves. This however isn't sparring it would be technical sparring if im being generous.

    Its too much of the former and not enough of the latter and an obsession with secret techniques and naming drills stupid things like the terminator 5.

    The Secret Techniques Behind Defence Lab - Defence Lab
     
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  13. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    How can you have elbows from a distance, you are limited by the length of the upper arm? , in Short range they are extremely effective, , if I'm 3foot way they are useless
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, that. That's what I was getting at. So, if I took my "foundation" material as an example (the first few classes in my curriculum). It's a gathering of fairly uncomplicated stuff that introduces covers and blocks, basic strikes, a tiny amount of footwork, some body movement, etc. It's meant to be something a beginner can digest, and at the end of it, they can kind of do some stuff - only against some few predictable attacks. If I stuck only to that for students who stayed for 2 years, and kept working on those same attacks, you'd get exactly what you're talking about. If I only introduced sparring on top of that, it would expand quite a bit, rather naturally. In fact, if I had someone who only wanted to train for a few classes, then come back once a month, that's probably what I'd do.
     
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  15. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    But I'm using it and don't accept your extremely limited definition So it clearly isNt an accepted defintion, if you had said commonly accepted defintion, you may have had a point to argue, though that would have lead to the question of how you had assessed how common it was, , you or at least someone has made it up, And it's clearly nonsensical to exclude techniques that reply on pain compliance from being included as pain compliance techniques
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Doesn't even have to be common, though. Every trade, industry, and profession has jargon that is not common outside that population, but is is the accepted usage within it. Doesn't matter whether it's in the dictionary or not (dictionaries are repositories, not rule books), so long as those involved understand the usage. If I walk into a bank and tell them they're mis-using a word, that doesn't make them wrong - it just means I don't understand the industry usage of the term.

    But keep going. You're almost getting to a point.
     
  17. veritasAequitas

    veritasAequitas Green Belt

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    If I arm bar you I have control of your structure, if wanted to I could just break the arm rendering it useless.

    If I skin tear you I have no real structural control and no ability to do anything but superficial damage

    One is a control based on structure that can be enhanced with pain but doesn't require it to work.

    One requires pain to function.
     
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  18. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Are you claiming its accepted usage, common usage, accepted usage in this forum or common usage on this forum

    Just to remind you, it was people telling me I was wrong, Not the other way round,
     
  19. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    So your working definition of a pain compliance technique, is that pain is not required,,, this is getting more bizare,

    Is compliance required or is this just randomly picking words out of a hat
     
  20. veritasAequitas

    veritasAequitas Green Belt

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    Why do you think arm bars still work on people on PCP?

    Control isolate and immobilize.

    Can you stop a guy out of his mind on drugs using skin tears?
     

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