Kenpo in the 21st Century

[ProfessorKenpo]

I got a chance to play with an officer in the Las Vegas Police dept.. last week. Hell of nice guy and I was asking about some of the search and cuff procedures. He had me on his hood faster than I thought and showed me (I'm always amazed at the fingerprints on these guys' cars LOL). I was quite impressed with their procedures, even against guys trained like myself. He was ready for almost anything I could throw at him and had control the whole time. I can only hope that other PD's pick up some of these control procedures cuz it certainly isn't happening from what I've seen on some tapes on TV. I hope I get a chance to work with other officers and let them know there are some pretty dangerous people out there, and they should always prepare for the worst case scenario. Big Cudos to the Las Vegas PD for their efforts.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Fastmover]

Guys,

No doubt going to the ground in a bar environment is bad. Still doesnt change the fact that it can happen, in fact happened to one of my best friends who was bouncing at a club. Lets pretend for a minute that there are those of you who can avoid going to the ground, but what about your students? Female students?

I have two daughters and the situation scares me to death. The odds of them going to the ground during an assault is very high if they are not already there. They could be laying in bed sleeping when attacked or the attack or it could come from a date rape situation god forbid. During the assualt the guy is going to attempt to place himself between the gals legs. It just would seem smart to me to provide these type of students with the vocabulary of motion to escape the situation.

For us rough and tough guys we should have methods of escaping and getting back to our feet. I do not mean to imply that we should continue to lay on the ground and roll around. However, there are some individuals who work in law enforcement or security who are forced to deal with an individual on the ground.


In other news:

I noticed on the Kenponet Mr. Bob White speaking about Jeff Newton a Kenpo Black Belt who won his King Of the Cage match. He won it by submitting the guy with an ankle lock. Yep you heard me.....a Kenpo guy doing an ankle lock on the ground. Congrats to him!!!!! Bob White overall must have some of the best fighters in the Kenpo community. His guys are always winning something and all I hear is good things about him as an instructor.

Be Good

John

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Jeff Newton is an incredible fighter, I've seen him fight and know him, along with some of Mr. White's other BB's, Jamie Matthews being another. There aren't too many guys that can beat them vertically or horizontally, period. I also know for a fact that the rules of engagement in the ring preclude any elbows or strikes to the spine or base of neck. I'm sure if Jeff would've use his normal Kenpo stuff the guy would have never submitted to his ankle lock, cuz he would've been down in about 10 second, fight over. If you look at Dance of Death or some of the extensions you'll find some of those leg and ankle locks, at least I have, and learned to use them.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Excellent post Fast Mover.

Your points about basic escapes from ground positions is right on the money. I don't want to turn Kenpo into a grappling art. I do think though that Kenpo people need to know a few basic techniques to defend themselves on the ground. And I do think we need to train those techniques in a realistic (i.e. non-cooperative partner) mode.

The argument was made above and on the "Kenpo on the Ground" thread that Kenpo has many principles that apply equally well vertically or horizontally. This is true. However, while the principles work, where are the techniques? We don't just learn punch defense techniques and assume the same principles can be easily applied against kicks. We have specific techniques to protect against kicks. It should be the same for takedowns and ground positions.

 

[MJS]

Thank you OFK and Fastmover!!! This is the point that I am trying to make. I have never once said that you should continue to roll around on the ground, but it is very important that you have some basic skills. I"im starting to think that some of the people here that are so against the ground, is because they know, but will never admit, that they will not survive on the ground. Fastmover, you made an excellent point--what about women?? If a woman is going to get raped, it will not be done standing, it will be done on the ground. I would want to know that my wife or daughter will have an edge if they end up in that situation.

I enjoy Kenpo. If I didn't, I would never have invested 17 yrs of my life learning it. I'm just looking at all of the options that I have available to me. Its no different than a boxer. He has someone that works on his punching, someone that advises him on what to eat, and someone that works on his conditioning. Why can't we do Kenpo for the standup, BJJ for some ground work, etc.

Maybe some of the non believers of grappling should head out to the Gracie Academy and see how their skills match up against a grappler. It would be a good test to see exactly how your skills are to prevent yourselves from going to the ground.

Mike

 

[Fastmover]

Clyde,

Thats a pretty good single leg takedown in Dance of Death! Me being a knuckle head Id hate for someone to pull it off on me!!!!

If theres a defense for everything then..........................?

John

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
I couldn't stay away from this one.... :shrug:

It looks to me like you need to get out and train a bit more and work these techniques and analyze them. Just going through the motions will never reveal the answers. I agree with Clyde...spend more time analyzing how they work, not how they don't.

I had an instructor that asked Mr. Parker how to avoid a judo hip toss once. This guy was Mr. Parker's size, or even a little bigger. He grabbed Mr. Parker by his GI, as a typical judo hip throw would happen, and turned to throw Mr. Parker. All Mr. Parker did was simply check this guy at the hip with his hand, and the guy couldn't throw him like he was supposed to be able to. Obviously Mr. Parker knew his judo, and his kenpo.
:asian:

Well, nothing against Mr. Parker, but its easy to defend against something if you know what is coming at you. If someone said to me, "Ok, I"m going to to a Judo throw on you." Of course, I'd have time to defend against it.

Watch some of the early UFC fights with Royce Gracie. He throws that front kick at his opp. Why? What is it doing? He isn't trying to hit the person with it, he is using it to gauge his distance. What is the reaction of the other person? They move back. Well, while trying to move back, all of their weight is going back, making it harder for them to step, and easier for Royce to shoot in for the take down. These people even know what he's doing, and they still continue to move back.

Mike

 

[Michael Billings]

Mike,

I do have an idea or I would not have posted.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MJS
Well, nothing against Mr. Parker, but its easy to defend against something if you know what is coming at you. If someone said to me, "Ok, I"m going to to a Judo throw on you." Of course, I'd have time to defend against it.

Watch some of the early UFC fights with Royce Gracie. He throws that front kick at his opp. Why? What is it doing? He isn't trying to hit the person with it, he is using it to gauge his distance. What is the reaction of the other person? They move back. Well, while trying to move back, all of their weight is going back, making it harder for them to step, and easier for Royce to shoot in for the take down. These people even know what he's doing, and they still continue to move back.

Mike

Obviously it wasn't too easy...Because this guy came to him and asked him How to do it. By the way, this guy had also taken judo for a period of time, so he was aware of the stuff they did. But yet he still had to ask how to defend against the throw. Doesn't sound like it was too easy to me. I am also sure he thought about it for a while before asking the question.

If the guy stepped back from the kick, it doesn't sound to me like he knew, or had any idea, the take down was coming. Or there was enough power on the kick for him to know he didn't want to allow it to connect. And if the kicker was good/lucky enough to get the reaction he was looking for, and then able to continue with a take down, then that was a good thing for him. But it doesn't sound like the guy being kicked at "knew" that the take down was coming after the kick.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Mike,

I do have an idea or I would not have posted.

Well, you know, every state is different, along with every situation. Yes, I read your profile. A close friend that I also train with, works in a mental institution. While not all of his encounters have ended up on the ground, some have. Recently, in CT., there have been many shootings, and many officers being accused of excessive force. People always say, "Why did you have to shoot my son?" Well, I look at it like, if I was standing in front of the guy, with the gun pointed at me, I would shoot too. If a cop is trying to make an arrest, and the subject resists, then I see nothing wrong with putting him on the ground. And if it is done in a forcefull manner, then fine. Maybe if you didn't resist me, you would not have gotten hurt.

Fact of the matter is, is that fights or struggles, in some cases, DO end up on the ground! If yours didn't, wonderful. But that doesnt mean that none of them will ever end up there!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Regarding the takedowns with the kicks. I would think that if you wanted to know how to beat a person in the ring, you would study his movements. Gracie has done this time after time, and people still fall for it. Knowing that they are facing a grappler, you would think that they would have a good idea that he wants to clinch. Forgive me for assuming that they all knew...my mistake.
Isn't it a normal reation at times to move away from something? By Royce using this kick, his opp. moved away, having his weight on his heels, not being able to execute a counter. This made it very easy for Royce to comlete the takedown. Before they had a chance to react, they were headed to the mat. Sure, could they have gotten a hit in? Yes, and yes, at times, they have, but it wasnt enough to stop the takedown. Sometimes you have to take a hit to give a hit. Is there a chance for a KO? Sure. I guess thats the chance that the grappler takes.

Mike

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MJS
Regarding the takedowns with the kicks. I would think that if you wanted to know how to beat a person in the ring, you would study his movements. Gracie has done this time after time, and people still fall for it. Knowing that they are facing a grappler, you would think that they would have a good idea that he wants to clinch. Forgive me for assuming that they all knew...my mistake.
Isn't it a normal reation at times to move away from something? By Royce using this kick, his opp. moved away, having his weight on his heels, not being able to execute a counter. This made it very easy for Royce to comlete the takedown. Before they had a chance to react, they were headed to the mat. Sure, could they have gotten a hit in? Yes, and yes, at times, they have, but it wasnt enough to stop the takedown. Sometimes you have to take a hit to give a hit. Is there a chance for a KO? Sure. I guess thats the chance that the grappler takes.

Mike

That is great that it works for him. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...let me try this one more time.

I'm not arguing that nobody should bother learning any of the basics of groundfighting. I'm arguing that you don't need to go, "outside," kenpo to do it.

I'm not arguing that going, "outside," kenpo is wrong. I'm arguing that what you will find there was, "in," kenpo all along.

I'm not arguing that cops and bouncers and professionals shouldn't learn a lot about locks, grappling, etc. After all, if anybody had bothered with it, we coulda skipped that whole Rodney King stupidity. (Before anybody starts, the fella there who was way, way stupider than anybody else was obviously Rodney King.)

Only thing I'm arguing that I can see real, reasonable objections to is the idea that kenpo is not a martial arts system. It's the key to martial arts systems. One sign of this--as was noted previously, somebody with a reasonable knowledge of kenpo can explain what other systems are doing a lot easier than the other way around.

Not that explaining better will necessarily help when you've got, say, Bart Vale on your tail.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I sense that most of us are getting tired of rehashing the Kenpo groundfighting argument over and over and over again and again and again. Can't blame you.

Tell me if you agree/disagree with or would restate my summary of our positions below:

We are in agreement on several fundamental points:
1) Kenpo is a very comprehensive system.
2) Kenpo principles are based on sound physics and are applicable in a variety of positions and situations.
3) the ground is a bad place to go in a street fight or self-defense situation.

We disagree on two key points:
1) I feel that Kenpo would benefit from the addition of grappling techniques and training to enable Kenpoists to stay up in the clinch and to escape from the ground. Some of you feel that EPAK material provides enough to enable Kenpoists to adequately defend themselves in most situations.
2) I feel that Kenpo would benefit by focusing more time on "alive" training drills similar to Kickboxing sparring and Judo/BJJ Randori. I feel that Kata practice should be sacrificed to spend additiional time on "alive" training. Some of you feel that the best EPAK teachers are already using the right mix of traning methods, drills, and sparring and that Kenpo practice is very "alive". Those of you who feel this way are uncomfortable with the de-emphasis of any of the major parts of EPAK that a major change in training method would require.

Given that many of the posters on this and other forums have different views on the future of Kenpo, I envision three paths for Kenpo to take in the future.
1) Kenpo traditionalists will preserve and refine EPAK curriculum.
2) Other Kenpoists will add/modify/delete Kenpo techniques continuing to build upon and maintain the core of EPAK while incorporating some outside influences.
3) A few Kenpoists will mix elements of Kenpo with other arts creating offshoots and/or new styles with little or no resemblance to Kenpo as it is today.
It is fairly clear which paths you and I are choosing.

I personally think that all three of these paths are worthwhile and I hope everyone here success in their endeavors. I do hope that as we choose our paths we are cognizant of what we are doing. For instance, if we choose a traditionalist path, we must be aware that we might be ignoring important innovations; if we choose a radical path, we must be aware that we might be losing valuable elements of Kenpo and that only time will tell if we truly had the insight and wisdom necessary to improve upon the original.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Overhead cross block: In order to do an overhead cross block and move your skull out of the way so it doesn't get cracked (using the 45 degree angle and all) your cross block would have to be out to either side of your shoulder. If this is the case, why not just teach an mixture of an overhead and extended outward block? Your idea of moving to a zone of santuary can be better accomplished by making the block and keeping your head forward almost as if you plan to drive your face into their chest (obviously this is an overexaggeration so you can understand what I'm saying)

Leaping Crane: So what you are trying to say is that you plan to leap to one leg in the middle of a fight? Prudence and the basic laws of physics suggest that leaping to a what essentially becomes a single point of balance, a point which now is loaded with all the force that your "leaping" body has created, would not be ideal. At this instance your commitment is total and directional change is difficult. If the tech made use of explosive foot maneuvers, like a push drag for instance, then one simply slips the punch while maintaining a far higher degree of maneuverability.

Triggered Salute: What is the ideal execution of this technique (for you)? I.E. is the push to be intercepted before making contact, during contact, or after the grab has been made? With all the different methods out there I wouldn't want to leave anyone out.

the gun techs never rely on grabbing the cylinder/hammer so ya donts get shot in yer favroite organ or limb or head...they rely on getting out of line with that hole in the end of the boomstick, and staying out of line with it..any grabbing is only taught as a possibility...

Wow, getting out of the way of the barrel... you don't say. So you don't plan to check the weapon or the weapon hand at all. So you are saying that the gun techniques don't advocate grabbing the weapon at all? Then why does everyone do them like that? hmmmm

backcutting: you mentioned that you get cut repeatedly when defending against the knife. Doesn't sound to me like your knife techniques take backcutting into account. You said that Entwined Lance actually relies on the backcut, hmmmm...... what if they just stab straight in? Each technique should teach you how to check the weapon and or how to suffiently execute your defense while minimizing the chances for getting cut regardless of whether the opponent backcuts or not.

Twist stances: How much power is generated from executing a twist stance vs. the decreasing manueverability and loss of stability created by performing this particular stance? In a fight you would never cross your arms against your body because you could be pinned. So why would you voluntarily cross your legs, thereby negating the use of 2 weapons while simultaneously destabilizing your stance? If you think a twist stance is stable, then execute one have a buddy push you or throw punches and kicks. Do you still think it's stable? Anything that can be accomplished with a twist stance can be accomplished with a more stable, and fluid foot manuever.

Here's something for you, if you have to be really big or spend more than 10 years in an art to make it effective then something ain't right. A student should be able to have a few hours of training and have a shot at defending themselves, not come in and expect to train for 5-10 years before they have any hope at all. There is something to be said for practicality.

 

[Fastmover]

OFK what a big mess you started, its all your fault!!! No really it is good to discuss these things and see were others are coming from. I may not agree all the time but I sure respect others opinion.

In discussing ground situations some have stated that they have never seen someone go to the ground in a real fight and this may be true. We in Kenpo have MANY techniques(Dance of Death...All of Long Form 5 for that matter) that teach takedowns. Anybody seen Tom Kelly spar!!! WOW!! The man is going to take you down!!! If we in Kenpo can do takedowns effectively, then by all means someone could be effective doing it against us.

John

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

John: Yes. I've created a mess. That was obviously my intention. I want Kenpo people to talk about broader issues. I want us to think outside of the bounds of Kenpo -- beyond some of the stuff I've seen here like the discussion on the Technical Forum re whether Delayed Sword is for a grab or a punch or whether a front ball kick causes someone to bend at the waist or not. If we don't address the big issues, then we risk retreating into our own dogma and losing touch with the real world. The last thing I would ever want for Kenpo in the 21st century would be an art practiced by Kenpo monks cloistered in their dojo with no contact with other styles or with the street.

 

[kkbb]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I sense that most of us are getting tired of rehashing the Kenpo groundfighting argument over and over and over again and again and again. Can't blame you.

Tell me if you agree/disagree with or would restate my summary of our positions below:

We are in agreement on several fundamental points:
1) Kenpo is a very comprehensive system.
2) Kenpo principles are based on sound physics and are applicable in a variety of positions and situations.
3) the ground is a bad place to go in a street fight or self-defense situation.

We disagree on two key points:
1) I feel that Kenpo would benefit from the addition of grappling techniques and training to enable Kenpoists to stay up in the clinch and to escape from the ground. Some of you feel that EPAK material provides enough to enable Kenpoists to adequately defend themselves in most situations.
2) I feel that Kenpo would benefit by focusing more time on "alive" training drills similar to Kickboxing sparring and Judo/BJJ Randori. I feel that Kata practice should be sacrificed to spend additiional time on "alive" training. Some of you feel that the best EPAK teachers are already using the right mix of traning methods, drills, and sparring and that Kenpo practice is very "alive". Those of you who feel this way are uncomfortable with the de-emphasis of any of the major parts of EPAK that a major change in training method would require.

Given that many of the posters on this and other forums have different views on the future of Kenpo, I envision three paths for Kenpo to take in the future.
1) Kenpo traditionalists will preserve and refine EPAK curriculum.
2) Other Kenpoists will add/modify/delete Kenpo techniques continuing to build upon and maintain the core of EPAK while incorporating some outside influences.
3) A few Kenpoists will mix elements of Kenpo with other arts creating offshoots and/or new styles with little or no resemblance to Kenpo as it is today.
It is fairly clear which paths you and I are choosing.

I personally think that all three of these paths are worthwhile and I hope everyone here success in their endeavors. I do hope that as we choose our paths we are cognizant of what we are doing. For instance, if we choose a traditionalist path, we must be aware that we might be ignoring important innovations; if we choose a radical path, we must be aware that we might be losing valuable elements of Kenpo and that only time will tell if we truly had the insight and wisdom necessary to improve upon the original.

Bravo!
This puts this thread back on track!
We should keep the kenpo on the ground argument for that forum. Discussion of the polling questions is what this thread should really be about. Whether it is ground fighting or not. Should Kenpo change for whatever reason (ground or not) or should we now pulverize OFK?

 

[jfarnsworth]

This thread has been very entertaining to read both sides of the ideas. Keep it up guys.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Clyde,

Thats a pretty good single leg takedown in Dance of Death! Me being a knuckle head Id hate for someone to pull it off on me!!!!

If theres a defense for everything then..........................?

John

The way I do DOD it's far from a just a single leg takedown, and what leads up to it is even better. I've had this technique improved by my instructor and then I even my little spin on it as well. Oddly enough, when I do it in the air you can never see the difference between the way I do it and the normal way most do it.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde