Benefits of Boxing for Kenpo

[Hefeweizen]

Does anyone who studies Kenpo also do any boxing? I've been recommended this for several reasons - feeling more natural in throwing punches, experiencing getting hit hard (not something done in our dojo), increased evading skills, faster footwork, better responses to attacks, etc.

Any opinions?

Thanks
HW

 

[tarabos]

i think boxing would benefit any martial arts training.

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Hefeweizen
Does anyone who studies Kenpo also do any boxing? I've been recommended this for several reasons - feeling more natural in throwing punches, experiencing getting hit hard (not something done in our dojo), increased evading skills, faster footwork, better responses to attacks, etc.

Any opinions?

Thanks
HW

For me sparring helps with those skills. And you get to practice kicks too. You might want to try finding a good sparring partner.

 

[Blindside]

Errr, why don't you just pick a sparring partner from your school who likes to bang, and take it to the other person? To make it even better, go ahead and video tape yourself doing it. It seems odd to me that you are looking to boxing for all of these traits that should be found in any serious kenpo school.

Don't get me wrong, I think boxers are tough and dangerous opponents, because they spar hard with their opponents constantly. But it tends to lead to sport specific traits in sparring like not defending their groin/legs from attack. Of course, if this is the route you want to take, I would recommend a kickboxing or Muay Thai school instead. This will at least get your fighting to incorporate lower body attacks.

Good luck,

Lamont

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Seriously, boxing adds some technique not emphasized in Kenpo like

bobbing and weaving,
different stances
changing body height to power an uppercut
roundhouse punches that are more circular than Kenpo
hand-wrapping and 16oz glove training.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Seriously, boxing adds some technique not emphasized in Kenpo like

bobbing and weaving,
different stances
changing body height to power an uppercut
roundhouse punches that are more circular than Kenpo
hand-wrapping and 16oz glove training.

Not sure what kenpo school you went to, but we sure as
hell do all of that in my school.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

We did it in my school too. We just didn't emphasize it the way boxers do.

Here is an example of how training emphasis might be different. Does your school emphasize hook punches to the head or body when in close or in a clinch like boxers do, or do you more often train to elbow when in close as in so many Kenpo self-defense techniques?

Here is one example where the emphasis on how to execute a move might be different. Does your school do circular hook punches that continue moving in a circle after the contact point as boxers do, or do you circle until you contact and then penetrate via straight-line extenstion as many Kenpo and Karate people do?

Do you bob and weave to avoid punches as a primary training emphasis as boxers do or do you usually keep the head up and back straight to sidestep/check to avoid punches in prepartion for Kenpo counter strikes?

Not accusing you or any other Kenpoist of not boxing. Maybe I should have said "Boxing emphasizes some..." rather than "boxing adds some techniques not emphasized".

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Here is an example of how training emphasis might be different. Does your school emphasize hook punches to the head or body when in close or in a clinch like boxers do, or do you more often train to elbow when in close as in so many Kenpo self-defense techniques?

Elbows and heel palms .. much harder weapons than a fist.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Here is one example where the emphasis on how to execute a move might be different. Does your school do circular hook punches that continue moving in a circle after the contact point as boxers do, or do you circle until you contact and then penetrate via straight-line extenstion as many Kenpo and Karate people do?

I was taught that continuing beyond the contact point leaves
targets open, and leaves you off balance.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Do you bob and weave to avoid punches as a primary training emphasis as boxers do or do you usually keep the head up and back straight to sidestep/check to avoid punches in prepartion for Kenpo counter strikes?

Both.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

Not accusing you or any other Kenpoist of not boxing. Maybe I should have said "Boxing emphasizes some..." rather than "boxing adds some techniques not emphasized".

I know you're trying to be as peaceful as you can .. and your
training FAR exceeds mine. But the things that stop me from
coming to "your side of the fence" so to speak is, 1) there IS a
such thing as "punch drunk" ... incessant realistic training without
safety equipment seems like a nice short road to that end.
2) Many fighters who haven't studied the arts you're begging all
to study have been in multiple street fights, and were QUITE
successful 3) people who use the UFC as evidence to the
supremecy of arts such as BJJ and Muay Thai RARELY if ever admit
that there are rules of engagement that MANY result to in a
street fight 4) few in your chorus admit that going to the ground
in the street should be avoided at any and all costs 5) most love
to say how I couldn't be any Gracie in the ring .. well DUH! and
neither could most spouting this script .. nor could I bet Tyson,
Ali, Holyfield, Marcino, etc ... 6) many of you love to tell me how
much I'm "wasting my time" or what I'm doing is "useless" ...
not sure where you grew up, but those are NOT kind words.

Respects!

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk:

Thank you. It seems like you agree that the training emphasis IS different. Adding Boxing just increases the repertoire. I totally agree with you though that elbows are much safer than hook punches with a bare fist.

Not really sure how much my training exceeds yours. Just because I'm old and fat doesn't mean I'm as knowledgeable as Al Tracy or Dennis Conatser or can move like Frank Trejo!

Not really trying to get you to jump over the fence. Just want you to look through the cracks and peer over the top once in a while.

As to your further points:
1) Agreed. Bare knuckle boxing and kick-boxing is stupid! Safety gear is called Safety gear for a good reason. Good to knock hard every once in a while though. BJJ training minimizes injury by eliminating striking and by "tapping" submission when before you break. Safety gear, boxing gloves, mouth pieces, head gear, etc. is a must for striking sparring.
2) Agreed. Anyone can win a street fight. Some training is better than none. More training is better than some. No argument here.
3). UFC is a good example of trained fighters going against trained fighters. "Alive" training in boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, and wrestling is good training for a real fight. That is the key lesson of the UFC. More important than the ground fighting lesson.
4). Kenpo remains my primary style. I want to stay on my feet, knock my opponent out and exit if I ever get into a fight again. If I get knocked down, then I want to be able to escape the mount and dominate on the ground. Ground defense and domination is an area where my Kenpo training lacked.
5) Not asking anyone to challenge a Gracie or professional fighter. Just suggesting (in this thread) that boxing technique is a little different and has something to add and (in other threads) that ground-grappling is different and has something to add to Kenpo, and that Alive training is more effective than prearranged training.
6) OK, sometimes I am rude. Not trying to say that what you are doing is useless. Just saying some of it is not applicable for fighting. Fighting isn't the only or even the main goal for many martial artists. That's ok as long as we are not fooling ourselves into thinking that Kata practice is the same thing as fight-training. I am personally done with Kata practice -- at least until I get too old to do anything else -- so that I can concentrate on developing effective application of the techniques I've learned and can learn to apply some new techniques.

 

[Eggman]

great points Kirk, every school varies upon what fundamentals and training applications they use. some schools dont even warm up or stretch! My journey in Kenpo is just beginning now that i just got my first. Part of that journey involves working out with people like martin wheeler and al mccluckie who can definitely add to a kenpoists arsenal. I have always been a big fan of training with boxers because they train to throw combinations and thats what i want to learn to defend against. From someone who has realistic street fight experience, of my 30 or so altercations only one ending up on the ground with me in a mount position which i quickly exited, not before introducing his face to my forearm which i didnt learn from a BJJ school. Remember if you are still standing then it works.

 

[Michael Billings]

Funny this should come up, especially with all the BJJ/Kenpo brouhaha.

Lori Lord (formerly Lazarine) Kenpo Black Belt holds a women's national title.

Julian Henry Kenpo Black Belt tested with Mr. Parker in 1989 when I was testing for 2nd. Trains at Richard Lord's Boxing gym and is a great sparring partner. His Kenpo was great before, now his hands are a blur and he hits much harder. He is also a little easier to hit ... not that he notices it with his new conditioning.

Barbara Springer Kenpo Black Belt. Her knees started hurting so much doing Kenpo she had to find another Art ... Boxing. It is competitive enough for her and a great workout. She does not do a lot of rounds, but rather does the conditioning and training ... for the past decade - she also started a Montessori school, so I assume the vast majority of her brain cells are still alive.

I know JKD people boxing, grappling (BJJ), and Copoiera'ing all over the place. And still they bring it home to share.

I am not a big cross training fan. I believe you need exposure to other Arts and should never close the door on where or from whom you may learn something, but I do not like the 6-8 months doing one thing, a year doing something else, etc. and then claim to be a well rounded Martial Artist. A dabbler, a beginner, maybe. But you ain't there yet.

Boxing brings a lot of conditioning, heart, strength and technique to the table. But unless you really enjoy repeated head trauma, regardless of the "safety gear", I would be judicious in engaging in the pugilistic science of boxing. What my friends found is they hit harder, move better (PCT's) without being called that. They have lost some of the ability to kick as the targets in boxing are much more limited and weapons much more specific. Julian particularly brings it back to Kenpo sparring, and it is loads of fun learning from him and watching him incorporate the boxing into his sparring.

Oss

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Great post Michael. Thanks.