Kenpo in the 21st Century

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I've managed to aggravate many of you with my "Olympian Pontifications" on Kenpo, Kenpo ranking, Kenpo Groundfighting, the usefullness of Kata, and a variety of related topics.

Now, I'd like to give everyone a chance to voice their opinions:

What direction do you think Kenpo should take in the 21st Century?

1) Should it be dramatically altered to incorporate new developments in technique and training developed outside of Kenpo in the last 10 years or so?

2) Should it evolve carefully adding and refining techniques within the current bounds of the style?

3) Should Kenpoists seek to preserve the art as it currently exists with little or no change out of respect for Mr. Parker and his teachings?

4) Should Kenpo people band together, find me and pulverize me?

 

[Touch Of Death]

So far Were at 100% woo hoo! I feel that training should reflect the basic hazards one might encounter on the street. If an instructors nostalgic story telling interferes with an impending reality, it might be time to reflect and see which dimensional stage of action your system covers and which styles will compliment you current training. Its Ok to... "take a look around to see which way the wind blow.", Jim Morrison.

 

[Brother John]

The only "future" of Kenpo that I have any right/authority or call to speak for is My future in Kenpo.... as it's all I've got.
...and the future's so bright...
well, you know the rest......
Your Brother
John

 

[superdave]

Well, my take on things, for whatever it may be worth, is this.

There are too many egos and too many people watering down the system. The groups need to re-organize into one governing body, sharing all the new material, while refining the older stuff.

Kenpo will have to evolve in order to survive. The sad part is there are some Kenpo schools that could not care less about wether the system advances or not. Just as long as the soccer moms pay the big bucks for their child's advancement.

 

[c2kenpo]

Havent we already been changing gradually as time has gone on. Every time someone teacheskenpo to another person the system will change a bit more since that person may have some groundbreaking idea that may improve kenpo as a whole.
Mr. Sepulveda in a seminar said it best "Kenpo is just basic movement put together once you know the basics you can become creative."
Take that thought to heart
Thank you Mr. Sepulveda

Journey Well

Dave Gunzburg

 

[Kenpodoc]

I think the answer is really E) all of the above.

One of Mr. Parker's more brilliant moves was to leave no one clear successor to constrain his art. This has allowed American Kenpo to grow since his death. As a result we have,

A) Kenpo schools which have tried to adapt to every new martial arts fad. This is usually unsuccessful but none the less valuable and well worth continuing.

B) Kenpo Concepts Schools which use thew Kenpo base and are carefully expanding and refing the Techniques and training methods.

C) Traditional Chinese, Hawaian, Okinawin, Tracy, Parker schools which strive to preserve a base system and serve as a check on the systems which may too eagerly accept change.

D) Finally I think all Kenpoists regardless of our training can agree to band together, find Old Fat Kenpoka and pulverize him.


JEFF

 

[Sigung86]

It is my thought that we ought to all throw off the ties that bind, disavow Kenpo and become BJ fighters like OFK is demanding ... That would, with the exception of grinding OFK to a pulp, fulfill all the above ... Well... More or less.

The Other real problem I see with all of this is remembering to pronounce my Rs like Hs in the Brazilian thing. :lol:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpodoc, Sigung86:
I sincerely thank you for your thoughtful replies.

I think you may misunderstand my zealous support for BJJ. I do think BJJ is awesome, but Kenpo is my primary art. That's why I choose to call myself Old Fat Kenpoka and not Old Fat BJJ Newbie. I do think that Kenpo is awesome. I worry that some of us are occassionally too full of ourselves, too close-minded, and too reverential of the past. Rence ;-) my crusade to ask Kenpo people to consider alternatives.

c2Kenpo:
Mr. Sepulveda is one of the best examples of someone true to our heritage, carefully updating teaching methods, and looking toward the future. I briefly studied at Mr. Sepulveda's school in Santa Clara, CA where he and his staff offer excellent instruction in 18-technique EPAK curriculum, BJJ ground-fighting, and Kickboxing conditioning and technique. I think it is an excellent model for the future of Kenpo.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
.... I worry that some of us are occassionally too full of ourselves, too close-minded, and too reverential of the past. .

I agree with you here. I think Jeff's comment was a little overzealous but he's entitled to his opinion. He's not a bad guy so don't come down on him too hard.

Hence ;-) my crusade to ask Kenpo people to consider alternatives

This is why I stayed out of this conversation! For the last thread like this it came at me from all angles.

I for one say good luck, & happy training. :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, fiddlesticks.

Here's my problem with all of this "modernizing," kenpo...ah, stuff.

First off, the only justifications I've seen so far amount to a hill of cliches: "empty your cup," "We must expand and grow," "you should be prepared if...," etc. etc., yada yada. Sure, fine, OK. Truisms are true. The only eensy issue is, they don't actually tell anybody anything...and they seem to be coming from folks who either a) haven't really explored what's in kenpo, or b) are arguing for throwing out what's in kenpo. Why's this an improvement?

Second--this "modernization?" Where's it end? First BJJ. Then--what? FMA for sticks? Kali for knives? Something else for guns? It doesn't look like modernization--or rather, it does: the sort of "modernization," that leads to, "planned obsolescence." You know, the endless discovery of new desires, so you need a new car every two-to-four years; the endless creation of new markets, so the whole thing can keep endlessly expanding. How old is kenpo, anyhow? Cripes, guys, you write as if this were some nineteen-hundred-year-old deal...compared with the NEWER! STRONGER! GETS YOUR WHITES WHITER! YOUR COLORS COLOREDER! STEP RIGHT UP...ONLY A DOLLAR (but see Tom Waits' song on this...)

Third: a philosophy resting on the discounting of other people's experience and a rewriting of the past. Some of us have repeatedly noted that we trained some of this, "new," stuff right in the old kenpo school; some of us have several times noted that the discussion of all this, "new," "more modern," "external," stuff is right in Mr. Parker's books, or in the sorts of stuff that folks like Larry Tatum are writing. Others have several times noted that before they gave up fighting as stupid, they never seemed to get into the sorts of situations the modernizers are describing. No effect on the discussion whatsoever. Hm. And as for rewriting--here's the first thing--the FIRST THING--I ever heard about kenpo: "it's karate mixed with cruel Hawaiian street-fighting." Now we can debate the accuracy of that statement from 1987--but given the nature of hawaiian street-fighting from all accounts, and the embedding of such arts as lua in kenpo, I take it as significant.

Fourth: the notion that somewhere out there is perfection. I insist it's a paranoiac notion--the attempt to fill all gaps, coded in contemporary capitalist terms. You know--more technology, shinier technology, that's the cure for everything. I simply don't expect to become a perfected fighter--don't want to, really. I'd like to become a better martial artist.

Fifth: way too much fascination with the idea of fighting and violence. (See Robert Smith's books.) Fundamental to all this modernizing talk are these ideas: a) the streets are so dangerous that you have to be prepared for anything anytime; b) you have to learn to inflict infinite damage, because the streets are filled with extraordinary fighters; c) it is impossible to talk your way out/avoid the trouble in the first place, d) strangers are the enemy. Fiddlesticks, I say. If you think our streets are extraordinarily dangerous, you should read about real danger in other countries...or you need to learn about what cities in Europe were like in, say, 1600. Did you know that if you get shot or stabbed, odds are pretty darn good that you'll know the attacker personally? And just incidentally, you're a lot more likely to drown, or slip and fall in a tub, or get killed in a car accident, or get knocked off by bad diet, than you are to die in a fight...so if we're going to be realistic...how's your tub-fu? still eatin' them Ho-Hos?

Sixth--who's going to "take charge," of all this modernization? I smell the Urge to Incorporate here, especially since the modernizers seem to really need to bring the Good News to us heathen...

Sorry to be a bit cranky about this. I guess I thought that somebody oughta write what a lot of folks who read this are undoubtedly thinking. Then too, it's not easy being a Nattering Nabob of Negativism...

Thanks,
Robert

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Let's just promote someone to 12th so OFK will hush up already. :rofl:

 

[tonbo]

I think that, in the 21st century, kenpo will continue to walk the path it is currently walking. You will have people of all of the above persuasions, taking the art to various extremes. Some of them will cling to the original art tenaciously, refusing to change *anything*, while others will retain only the kenpo name and a few Parker ideas to tie it to anything else kenpo.

In short, I believe that if you want to know where kenpo will go in the 21st century, then take a look around at where it is now and where it was over the last 10 or so years.

And I don't believe that pulverizing *anybody* is going to settle any of these arguments. Even if it's OFK.

Everybody gots their own 'pinions, tho.

Peace--

 

[Kirk]

I've said this before, and it has yet to be negated. I can't say it
factually, though, because I haven't learned the entire system.

I was told, however that once you learn the rules, principles, and
most importantly flow of motion, and all of the concepts and
principles intended in kenpo, then all of those principles can be
seen in other styles and arts. And that one wouldn't have to
necessarily study a system to black belt in order to "bring into"
kenpo what you've learned.

I've heard that Frank Trejo has incorporated some serious sticky
hands stuff into their kenpo, for example. But AFAIK, he still
teaches the original curriculum, to teach you all that Mr Parker
wanted to teach.

 

[Michael Billings]

Kirk is correct in that the Principles, Concepts, and Theories are a "framework" or the "paradigm" in which American Kenpoist choose to dissect, analyze, learn, and recombine their study of motion. The same Principles, Concepts, and Theories can be utilized to make the same critical evaluation of other Arts ... and there is nothing wrong with doing this.

Where I take issue, is when you combine paradigms, or lack the sophisticatication or time in the Art, to interpret your study of motion in other systems back into the Kenpo framework. Rather you decide you must "Learn" the other system and that Kenpo is "lacking" something. That is just one way of looking at it. That is OFK's paradigm, which I do not happen to buy into. And yes, I do grapple with BJJ guys, they are frustrating for me, and I am frustrating for them. I am not doing this any more, but have no problems with my students getting exposure to other Arts ... As long as they "Bring it Home" and allow us to dissect, analyze, associate it with the Kenpo that we practice. So far I have not lost anyone to BJJ (Knock on wood.)

Yall have a Kenpo Day now!

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert:
Thank you for your post. I opened this thread to give others a chance to state their positions without being subjugated to my overly opinionated and sometimes ill-begotten arguments. Your points are very strong and I am glad you are continuing to contribute to the discussion.

XtremeJ_AKKI:
You have given me another idea for a thread and maybe a poll...Do you have any nominees?

Tonbo:
It is good to hear that at least one person doesn't want to beat me up.

Kirk:
Your example about Frank Trejo's sticky hands addition to his curriculum is excellent. That is EXACTLY my point re BJJ in the other threads. I'm not asking anyone to abandon Kenpo, just to add some ground technique and spend more time on alive training drills.

Michael:
Excellent points. Admittedly, I have not fully explored everything Kenpo has to offer and I know there is more there than I've got. But by the same argument, Kenpoists have not fully explored BJJ, Judo, FMA, etc. and there is probably something there that we haven't discovered or applied yet. That's one of my main points about the benefits of cross-training.

 

[Touch Of Death]

since it is all Kenpo no one is suggesting any one leave kenpo. Arts like BJJ and Escrima offer some unique and specialized training which isn't found in your run of the mill kenpo school. That doesn't mean your Kenpo is bad; it means that it is just possible that your instructor and his traditional methods are starting to look a little limmited as of late. No Kenpo school should expect to loose any one to BJJ unless the instructor gives an ultimatum. Deciding that the picture frame of motion that you study is more than enough to get you out of any situation is all well and good, but more and more people thinking outside the box. Remembering fights from the good old days that didn't require ground skills isn't going to help you in the very near future; it will be just that... the good old days.

 

[Michael Billings]

I just don't agree with what "fully explored" means, and the extent to which we, as Kenpoist, immerse ourselves in other Arts. I still want to use my Kenpo nomenclature and structure to organize my experience in Shotokan, TKD, Hung Gar, Judo, BJJ, etc. It is just a different way of looking at things than you have.

No harm, no foul ... I just want to retain my Kenpo roots and use that as the filter through which I expand my knowledge of motion and fighting skills.

I think you, and others, came across pretty strong on this and other threads, as pro-BJJ and to some extent, whether it was your intent or not, discounted Kenpo as your primary Art. It certainly appeared as if you were pro-BJJ to the exclusion of you Kenpo roots ... regardless of your reassurances otherwise. This led to some of the responses you have gotten and alienating some of the other posters, or just flat pissing them off.

Oss

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think it all boils down to your instructor and not your instuction. If you are continualy told that what you are studying is all you will ever need, chances are you are going to believe it. Rather than experiencing the vastness of information and eagerly trying soak it all in, it seems that all to many people are being fitted for a big ol' pair of blinders. Grapplers might try to grapple at the wrong situations but Kenpo guys should never choose an inapropriate range, position, or manuever, target, angle, and cover without "considering" the best course of action. Cross trainers see the similarities and it would seem that Kenpo guys don't want to see beyond their training floor.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

24 hours into the poll...will any of the 7 guys who voted to dramatically change the art volunteer to help protect me from the 4 who want to pulverize me? My new BJJ techniques won't work against multiple attackers -- and my Kenpo is not up to snuff.

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
24 hours into the poll...will any of the 7 guys who voted to dramatically change the art volunteer to help protect me from the 4 who want to pulverize me? My new BJJ techniques won't work against multiple attackers -- and my Kenpo is not up to snuff.

I'll help ya, especially since Mr. Farnsworth is hanging around. That means the Goldendragon ain't too far behind!