Karate and Weapons.

Discussion in 'Karate' started by arnisador, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Sapper6

    Sapper6 3rd Black Belt

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    the weapon is only an extension of the hand holding it. it's best not to become lacksidasical in stancess and basics just because your wielding a weapon.
     
  2. searcher

    searcher Senior Master

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    Not sure what Mr. Oyata meant either, but since using weapons does tend to strengthen your muscles I could see where weapons could help with empty-hand. In a round about sort of way. It is similar to the use of other implements the Okinawans used to condition their bodies.
     
  3. Gene Williams

    Gene Williams Green Belt

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    Well, the weapon is a little more than an extension of the hand holding it. My hands do not have blades on them, nor are they six feet long. That is a meaningless cliche'. You do not become "lacksidasical" because you are wielding a weapon, it is just different. The "extension of the hand" thing is a way of saying that one should become so familiar with the weapon that it "seems" just an extension of the hand.
     
  4. Sapper6

    Sapper6 3rd Black Belt

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    the weapon can only do what your body tells it to do. it only only goes where your hand leads it.

    i know exactly what i said and what it means to ME, perhaps not you.

    you're saying you can get by with less of a foundation just because you're hold a weapon? i disagree. foundation is important regardless of weapons, either natural or artificial. :asian:

    so you can lack in focus just because you've got a weapon? i again, disagree. in some cases, you would require even more focus than empty hand execution, for the simple fact you can injure yourself in the process, or even injure your attacker on a larger scale than necessary.

    i agree completely on the idea of less power with techniques involving weapons.
     
  5. Gene Williams

    Gene Williams Green Belt

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    I don't think you understood what I said, but never mind.
     
  6. Sapper6

    Sapper6 3rd Black Belt

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    i understood completely :asian:

    cheers man, it's all relative. :supcool:
     
  7. sauzin25

    sauzin25 Guest

    I agree with this but I don't think it really applies much the other way around. Simply put, empty hand kata were made to work best with just your hands. A spear hand is no exception. If you look at the technique before and after the spear hand you will see why it works better with your hands empty.

    Of course there are principles taught with empty hand kata that apply to weapons but to really learn a weapon there are many other principles you must know. Principles you can't learn from empty hand kata.

    I think that is what Oyata is referring to. There are things you learn when learning a weapon and kata made specifically for that weapon that are hard to teach without the use of the weapon. These things are required for effective use of the weapon but they also enhance and shed light on other aspects of empty handed techniques. This at least has been my experience.:asian:
     
  8. JAMJTX

    JAMJTX Blue Belt

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    I would not say ALL karate kata. But I believe most were based on weapons kata.

    You can do a lot of experimenting on your own. Take some of the traditional Okinawan weapons and just do the kata and see what comes out.

    I was looking further into this myeself recently. I always had an inkling of this idea. Then I came across someone who was teaching this idea as a form of advanced training. I then asked someone else who has been doing Kobudo for a long time. This person agreed that I was essentially on the right track but it was a very narrow minded form of training.
     
  9. RRouuselot

    RRouuselot Master of Arts

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    What did you base this idea on? Can you give some verifiable examples.....like which kata specifically are based on weapons kata?
     
  10. JAMJTX

    JAMJTX Blue Belt

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    I can't give you specific examples of what karate kata were based on weapons kata. Yet. This is something I am going to try and look further into.

    But you can start doing experimenting on your own and go through the basic kata. Take the Pinan kata for example. Just put some tonfa in your hands and go through the kata. You will start to understand.

    This one area where Gene Williams may have some knowledge or input. I understand, as I have been told, that Shogo Kuniba used to require karate students to perform the karate kata with weapons so they would understand the relationship between karate and kobudo.

    The person that told me this has his students do this as a form of advanced training. One can look at it as being advanced karate.

    I originally looked at it as a way of introducing karate students to basic kobudo, using kata that they already knew before learning more advanced kobudo.

    I asked for some advice from a senior instructor who is both a high a ranking Shotokan instructor with 40 years of kobudo experience and whose historical knowledge I have a lot of regard for. He had told me that yes, many karate kata were based on kobudo. But he also said that "any idiot can" do karate kata with a weapon in his hand and suggested that I find a qualified kobudo teacher instead.

    I am going to take his advice and not try to introduce kobudo that way, but it is still interesting historical research.

    Jim Mc Coy
     
  11. The Kai

    The Kai Master of Arts

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    Putting a tonfa in your hands while doing pinan 4, you are not working a weapon kata-but a empty hand kata with weapons in your hands. Using a weapon requires adjustments in your stance, timing and mostly applications

    Also there are thing that you can and cannot do empty handed that work with a weapon and vice versa
     
  12. JAMJTX

    JAMJTX Blue Belt

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    This may be true, but you can still see the relationship. Also, kata are always slightly modified to show variations on the bunkai, so making adjustments to see how the weapons apply is not necessarily wrong.

    But although it sounded like a good idea to me for a short while, I have to go with the opinions that it is a poor way to learn how to use the weapons.

    Jim Mc Coy
     
  13. chinto

    chinto Senior Master

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    yes and no. kobujitsu was an art before karate was. and meany of the things they knew from using weapons was incorperated into the art. that is part of what was blended with the chinese influince that came in to karate.
     
  14. stickarts

    stickarts Senior Master

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    I translate weapons to emtyhand and vice versa.
    Some directly apply and some don't but it still makes a good study.
     
  15. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    Kobudo is used as a supplement to our empty hand training, since the armed, and empty hand training compliments each other.

    It's especially useful when people are able to better understand the concept of using leverage, and the physics behind such movements. In the Yamanni Ryu kobudo system that we practice, the emphasis is on flowing, long strikes, but shorter, quicker blocks, and people are able to understand how torque plays an important role in both armed, and unarmed combat.
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, it's always interesting and fruitful to think about whether and how an empty hand technique could be applied as a weapon technique! Many go over to the knife, for example, though of course with varying degrees of success.
     
  17. eyebeams

    eyebeams Purple Belt

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    It should be remembered that kobudo as we know it know is pretty recent. Most kobu-gata were originally pretty short. I remember stories about one early karateka who made an effort to collect as many of these as possible.

    In terms of empty handed stuff, people do sometimes take it too far. There was a guy claiming sanchin was supposed to go with sai, but this is plainly ludicrous, since we can now actually see the Chinese version of it, and there aren't any weapons. I did see some Fujian baihequan (a known ancestor of karate) that uses double butterfly swords with heavy tines though.
     
  18. chinto

    chinto Senior Master

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    very true. meany of the techniques are at the very least similer, and then some are of course spacifice to the weapon or empty hand use. but there is something to be learned either way, and to be rememberd.
     
  19. chinto

    chinto Senior Master

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    yes and also some weapons techniques are also useble with objects around you, eku for instance would work fairly well with a shovel or spade in a pinch. and there are things in the eku kata that work very well empty handed and others that do not as you said. just as there are things in meany empty hand kata that work with some weapons well.123
     

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