"... just wanted to talk"

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by aedrasteia, Jun 16, 2018.

  1. aedrasteia

    aedrasteia Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2006
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    133
    Trophy Points:
    58
    He just wanted to talk. Then he wanted a hug. This woman's story is a must-read for men.

    posting because this is one of the most frequent issues coming up in women's SD classes and conversations.
    Please describe your _ specific_ instructions for women/girls who present with this issue.

    I'm certainly interested in your understanding or rejection of his behavior. I'm much more interested in what you Teach women/girls. Please be very specific; break it down
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I'm failing to understand why that story is a "must-read for men".

    Any remotely normal man knows that grabbing a hug off a complete stranger is absolutely beyond the pale - it's not acceptable and it's not a male trait.

    The author saying how she's had so many men ask her how to appear less threatening to women since she wrote it is just ridiculous - call me old fashioned but I've always found that not grabbing them has worked wonders for me and I've never felt the need to check if that's the right thing to do...

    You say it's a frequent issue coming up in women's SD classes - do you mean the story or their personal experience?

    If personal experience, do you mean a bloke trying to be friendly or a bloke lunging for an inappropriate hug session?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,752
    Likes Received:
    4,584
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Under hooks.

    This unwanted hug rubbish use to happen to me a lot.
     
  4. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Yeah, but that's understandable given that you're just so damn pretty.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  5. CrazedChris

    CrazedChris Green Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    68
    The sad thing is, what would his reaction have been had she gotten more blunt and told him she didn't feel comfortable answering his questions? Would it have flipped a switch and brought out a more aggressive response, maybe even turning violent? Or would he have realized he was being a bit intrusive? This could go so many ways.

    We are taught in our self defense class that first, be aware of your surroundings. Distance from your attacker is good. If they do grab you, either get away or subdue enough to get away.

    I think girls need to be taught how to react verbally as well. Being scared is understandable. But you need to know how to respond, politely at first, to discourage unwanted behavior. Not so politely if it continues.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,752
    Likes Received:
    4,584
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Yeah well it is a curse.

    But classic bouncing conflict that one. Where guys go from wanting to bash you to wanting to hug you.

    I even developed a hand shake where I would lock my elbow in to my chest so they couldn't turn that in to a hug.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,752
    Likes Received:
    4,584
    Trophy Points:
    308
    It is one of those contradictions that come up.

    Where while self defence is not just about cracking skulls. If you are in a position of strength your options increase.
     
  8. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    6,863
    Likes Received:
    2,054
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    Because theyre drunk and emotional, or to try to hug then crush/throw you?
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,752
    Likes Received:
    4,584
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Up to them. I got a bit of both.
     
  10. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,836
    Likes Received:
    1,304
    Trophy Points:
    253
    The woman needed better verbal self defense skills.
    #1 she needed to determine if this person was someone she wanted to enage with...in this case the answer should be no.
    #2. She was allowing him to have controll of the conversation. With better verbal self defense skills she should be the one who subtlety controlls the tempo and field of the conversation.
    The defender should be able to guide the direction of the conversation which would not allow him the opening to ask these personal questions. If the questions are still asked then the defender needs to have the skill to cut off the line of questioning and redirect it .
    #3. NEVER give out personal information. There was no reason for her to give up the information like she did.
    #4 listen to your intuition. All of her alarms were going off loud and clear. Your brain is picking up subtle information you may not be aware of. Trust your instinct. She needed to exit the situation and she new it.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,690
    Likes Received:
    2,306
    Trophy Points:
    263
    The thing that bothered me is that she engaged in things that she didn't like to do because she felt that she owed the guy something in return (how I'm reading it.)

    #1. If you don't like doing it then don't do it. If something takes you out of your comfort zone then don't engage in that activity. Tying something new like swimming or a new restaurant is a different comfort zone than social interactions. Sometimes our social discomfort is due to things that we are subconsciously picking up as dangerous. Not liking someone for no clear reason may be the result of your mind identifying something negative or dangerous about a person that makes you want to stay away, even if you don't know what it is. If you don't like small talk then don't do it.

    #2 She said that this has happened more than once. If this is the case then it becomes a "personal problem." She keeps ignoring the warning signs and the patterns thinking that the outcome will be different. The human mind has an incredible ability to identify patterns and behaviors. There is nothing in the book of life that says "You have to give people the benefit of the doubt." Through out the reading it seems she was picking up on the warning signs, but she ignored it for the sake of "Giving someone the benefit of the doubt."

    #3 Keep your distance. I'm a guy and I'm personally not a hugger and as a result I'm always keeping out of hugging range. I stay just far enough out of range that when I see a hug coming I can move back slightly making the hugging attempt one big uncomfortable experience. I would tell a woman the same thing. Keep the gap in effect. Handshakes are always with an extended arm as if I'm trying to prevent advancement by making the handshake happen before too much ground can be covered.

    #4 Don't give up information. Don't volunteer it. Do you live home alone? What is your name? Respond by saying I don't give out personal information. It's not being rude, "it's just your thing." You don't give information to random strangers. You don't have to explain this to the stranger, All they need to know is that you don't give out personal information. Think of other small talk that you have done in the past. How many times as someone actually asked your name at the beginning of a small talk conversation? How many times has someone asked "Do you live around here." For most people these 2 questions never come at the beginning of small talk. If a person isn't expecting to see you after today then, they really don't care where you live or what your name is.

    Think of small talk conversations with store clerks that you may see at least once or twice a week. Have they asked for your name and where you live? Probably not.

    With all of this said, I'm not blaming the woman for the man's behavior. All I'm saying is that women should be more trusting of their initial feelings of discomfort. Don't be so accommodating. Trust those uneasy feelings..
     
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,690
    Likes Received:
    2,306
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Some perspectives that are out there.



    Another perspective.
    Awesome Rejection. I've dated a woman like this 20 years ago. She didn't mind hurting feelings. Not sure she would diss guys on social media but she definitely did it in person "I seen it." lol I have a lot of female friends like this to this day.. They are like "F- your feelings" lol. While it's entertaining to me, she's hitting on a lot of truth.
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,752
    Likes Received:
    4,584
    Trophy Points:
    308
    If you really want to go cray cray on verbal skills. Then you would set up the verbal defences and tricks to deal with it beforehand.

    So that off the cuff if you don't want to give out your home location then you are walking your friends dog. Practice it and get used to it. Then use it on creepy guys.

    Another bouncer trick that one. And no the bar is not full. They just don't like you.

    Strip phrases I think they were called.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,836
    Likes Received:
    1,304
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Over all I like the entirety of your post, except this advise. It can work and at times it is needed but it is confrontational which makes it inappropriate in many circumstances. Everyone has a distinct personality so what one person may say will not work for another. With the OP story I would teach to use ....
    (With a smile and positive vocal tone and even done in a playful way) "with that question your either looking for a date, or your a hatchet murderer (smile here) I'm taken,,,,so "
    The skill is to answer the question with your own question that redirects the conversation and in a playful way that also calls the aggressor out, letting him know that his question is inappropriate. It is exposing his covert intention.

    Everything in her story was telling me this was a dangerous situation she was in. There is a lot to it and how to respond correctly. It is something that really needs to be unpacked and addressed as self protection teachers.
     
  15. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    4,555
    Likes Received:
    1,354
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Southeast U.S.
    What happened to common sense? I live in a very safe area of the country and southern hospitality is a real thing but a good parent will teach their child when to just smile and walk away. It is not being rude, just smart. I know I will sound chauvinist, but the warning signs should have been triggered almost from the start. That is a big part of what should be taught in a SD class.
    She was nice and cordial as first just as she should have, when she felt it was going too far, why didn't she cut the conversation off and make it clear it was over? Because she was afraid of being called a ***** by a stranger? Come on man.
     
  16. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    3,588
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Location:
    Saline
    Sounds like she needs a more intimidating dog.

    And @drop bear you will not defend against my hug.....You will be hugged and you will like it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,690
    Likes Received:
    2,306
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I guess I should have read your post first almost the same things that I saw and in the same order. Out of all that I read it's was as if she was fighting those negative vibes she was pick up about the situation. Not once did I see a statement like "I thought he was a nice guy." Offering a treat to a dog isn't nice. I usually call my dog when I drop food on the floor. It's not because I'm nice, it's because I'm being a lazy azz and I don't want to pick it up. lol. Animals are the same way. If I have a cute puppy, then I know I can hit the parks and attract a lot of women. I'm not taking the dog to the park because I'm being nice to the dog. I'm taking the puppy to the park because I'm getting something out of the deal. lol.


    In the previous video the lady in the video mentions that women act the way they do because they don't know. What this tells me is that there is a lack of verbal cue awareness at no fault of their own. There are certain cues that guys can see easier than what women can see. I think if guys would share these cues with women the, women will be able to better avoid situations like the one in the article. At the very least the cues will help to confirm or verify the gut feelings. The only question after learning the cues is to follow and trust in what she is feeling uneasy about.

    I know sometimes people blow things off and think that they are mistaken but sometimes it's just better to be safe than to second guess.
    I wonder if there are self-defense classes that teach what do to after you have rejected a person. For example, What are the next steps after rejecting a person? What types of warning flags and body language are you looking for while rejecting a person? Do you ease into a rejection or just smack them in the face with it? After a successful rejection, do you stay in the club? if so where do you go? Do you partner up? (bring to the attention to another your concern about your safety). I've been a part of partnering up in the past where someone has come to me because they felt uncomfortable in a situation. Basically she just stayed in my proximity until she felt that she could leave without harm. She didn't ask anything of me other than if it was ok for her to stay where I was standing.

    Partnering up may have been good for the woman if other people were around where she was walking her dog. Just walk up to the person and let that person know what is going. It could be a male, another female, or even a group of people. The key is that it gets the person out of the solo situation and puts them in group. My wife has been a part of this Partnering up as well, but on the opposite end where someone noticed that she was being targeted so they partnered up with here and actually did it from car.
     
  18. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I'm going to have to call you on that one - citation required ;)

    Commonly, it's the other way around, hence sayings like "women's intuition"...
     
  19. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,690
    Likes Received:
    2,306
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Some people feel they have a need to return kindness. Very few even consider that what they see is not actually kindness, but a lure. Guys may be more in tune do it because it's something almost all of us have done at some point of time in our lives to gain the interest of a girl or a woman. We tend to see it a mile a way. There have been times when I was with my wife and she would say, oh the guy was just being nice. To me, I know what nice is, and that crap wasn't it.

    A Guy sitting on a bench. How many dogs have walked by? How many did he offer a cracker to? Did the person do the same for the men who passed by? If you are stopping to take a photo of a sunset, do you really need to stop next to the stranger? What is the likely hood of the guy starting small talk if you stop 30 feet away from him to take the pictures of a sunset. It's a sunset, so was that the only place to take pictures of one? Could you have walked past the guy to take pictures of the sunset?

    When I teach self-defense, I always talk about manipulating the environment and positioning myself within that environment in such a way that it influences how people interact with me. It's not so much about who is the bad guy as it is being in a good position. Sort of like having a buffer where it takes longer for bad things to happen and it gives you a better chance to see things moving in the wrong direction or at a minimum alerts you to things that you should pay attention to.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Not a photographer I take it?

    30 feet can entirely change the composition of a sunset photo - 5 feet can spoil it depending on what you're actually aiming to achieve.

    Same for landscapes, or cityscapes - if you're going for something specific then there's A place, and that's it.



    Edit: think Stonehenge - if those hundreds of tonnes of rock were placed 30 feet away and/or in a slightly different orientation then the alignments just wouldn't.123
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page