Judo: Sport or martial art?

[Patrick Skerry]

Hi Patrick,

The sporting aspect of Judo has been beat to death,not only on other internet boards,but in Dojo across the country. Bottom line,it is what you make it.

It's not my thing,but I can respect those who "live" for shiai. We are all Judoka in whatever the sense of the word,and need to strive to put aside our petty differences for the advancement of the art.

If you want to be a "purist",that's great and good for you,if you want to be a top competitor,that's also fine and dandy,but we must have a common ground,and that is our love of Judo.

Hello Paul,

Nobody is preventing a person from becoming a judo winning machine if they want too. Just don't require the 'majority' of us go that way. And that is one of the many points I made, that the IJF has removed the option of choice. I don't have any choice but to conform to rules that encourage the $portification of judo, or else I can give up judo.

I have no intention of leaving judo.

But I did come across some good evidence to support the argument that judo is not a sport. See my post #153.

 

[bignick]

Let me ask a question, as I have no Judo training...

Are there techniques that are taught more for tournaments, and others that are taught more for self defense purposes?

yes...and this is where the "sportification" of judo comes in...people focusing entirely on the competition aspect of judo will ignore the techniques that aren't as useful or have less possibility of scoring in a competition situation....

also, they will use defenses and strategies that are totally ridiculous in a real life situation(turtling up, locking arms to prevent someone from entering)

Mr. Skerry seems to feel that the ignoring of large aspects of the martial art are less important than a few minor rule changes

 

[bignick]

$$$$$$$$

how?

also...showing that the people of japan played sports has no relevance to this subject...we are not talking about what they did or what judo was...we are talking about it as practiced today...

 

[Patrick Skerry]

how?

also...showing that the people of japan played sports has no relevance to this subject...we are not talking about what they did or what judo was...we are talking about it as practiced today...

They want to attract a greater volume of ticket buying $$$$ spectators to judo events, to sell items $$$$, souveniers $$$$, beer $$$$, at the expense of good judo. Judo is purposely being exploited.


Also, it is definitive that if the Japanese did not consider Judo a sport, than neither should the IJF - judo is not a sport.

 

[bignick]

japanese are no longer the only practitioner's of judo...they gave the gift of judo to the world...but now they are just one of hundreds of countries that practice judo...

also, where is your definitive proof that some japanese don't consider judo to be a sport...again...i don't want to hear about the sports they used to play....

finally, i'd like to once again ask where your information comes that Kano was critical of Mifune's judo...judoinfo.com is back online...so you should be able to find something, right?

 

[Feisty Mouse]

OK, Patrick... what are you going to do about this issue, then?

 

[Ceicei]

They want to attract a greater volume of ticket buying $$$$ spectators to judo events, to sell items $$$$, souveniers $$$$, beer $$$$, at the expense of good judo. Judo is purposely being exploited.

Without exposure of any type, people would soon forget judo because of insufficient awareness. Getting judo out in front of the public is one way to get people interested and possibly get involved.

I believe good judo is how an excellent instructor teaches his students. As some have already mentioned in earlier posts, people can find "sportified training" judo or "non-competitive based training" judo. I believe there is enough room in this world for both types of training methods to suit the preferences of judo students.

- Ceicei

 

[SPQR]

Hello Kane:
And without a doubt (again, in my opinion), wrestling and boxing have been reduced to a combative sport. I emphasized 'reduced' because so much of the combat effective techniques have been removed from boxing & wrestling to provide entertainment, that they no longer imress anybody but bookies and sportsbetters.

Dear Patrick,

I am impressed with you dedication and passion about Judo. However, I would not be so subjective and critical of "combative sports." I've seen boxers impress (and destroy) a lot of people in real fights - not just "bookies and sportsbetters." They showed a lot of "combat effective techniques," too.

 

[SPQR]

I believe the very original purpose of a martial art - to kill - is what prevents it from becoming a sport without some extreme modification to the point of total mutation, unrecognizable as the original art.

Dear Patrick,

Another comment about "combative sports." Obviously, we don't expect to see any fight-to-death events soon, at least not legally. However, it doesn't mean that the same boxing has lost its ability to kill. Even with all the protective gear and rules we see people die (unfortunately)in the ring.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a martial art becomes a sport ones you step into a ring, octagon, etc. Which way to choose and emphasize is your decision. Different strokes for different folks. No need to be so negative and subjective about others' choices.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Dear Patrick,

Another comment about "combative sports." Obviously, we don't expect to see any fight-to-death events soon, at least not legally. However, it doesn't mean that the same boxing has lost its ability to kill. Even with all the protective gear and rules we see people die (unfortunately)in the ring.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a martial art becomes a sport ones you step into a ring, octagon, etc. Which way to choose and emphasize is your decision. Different strokes for different folks. No need to be so negative and subjective about others' choices.

Hi SPQR, (For the Senate and people of Rome?)

When I said that boxing and wrestling had been 'reduced' to combative sports, I did not mean they lost their combative effectiveness. I used the term 'reduced' because a martial art is not a sport, and boxing and wrestling have been lowered to a form of physical entertainment like badmiton or volleyball.

Ju-jutsu was not 'reduced' into a combat sport by the development of judo. Judo just rendered ju-jutsu into a more humane form of self-defense. Dr. Kano never intended to treat his judo as a sport, and he never referred to judo as a sport in any of his papers that I've read so far.

I do not believe a martial art becomes a sport as soon as you step into the ring, or include it as an Olympic event. Take the judo shiai for instance; the shiai is for technique testing and rank enhancement, not to win a trophy, or rack up points, and prove your better than the other guy. Yet that is the current interpretation of the judo shiai, against the view of the founder.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Without exposure of any type, people would soon forget judo because of insufficient awareness. Getting judo out in front of the public is one way to get people interested and possibly get involved.

I believe good judo is how an excellent instructor teaches his students. As some have already mentioned in earlier posts, people can find "sportified training" judo or "non-competitive based training" judo. I believe there is enough room in this world for both types of training methods to suit the preferences of judo students.

- Ceicei

It is my opinion that Dr. Kano used the Olympics as a vehicle to provide his judo with international exposure. The Olympics did a good job of that, and during the '70s judo was the fastest growing martial art in America. But the Olympics were 100% amatuer, and the amatuer standing of judo was protected by both the AAU and the Olympic committee.

Things are different now. The AAU dropped judo from its rolls in the late '70s and the Olympics are becoming professional.

If you want a portent of things to come for judo, just look at professional wrestling. Dr. Kano specifically warned against judo going professional. Yet that is what is happening since 1997 when the IJF changed the rules of competition encouraging 'attacking' judo (which is an oxymoron) specifically to promote ticket sales.

The trouble about a laid back attitude to all this forced change, is that it removes the options of choice - you either conform to the IJF dictates, or you can leave. But I don't want to leave judo, and I won't be forced out. So other arrangements must be arranged.

But judo is a martial art being mismanaged as a sport, with deleterious effects for judo in the long run.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

OK, Patrick... what are you going to do about this issue, then?

The issue of all the rude flamers on this thread, or the question of whether judo is a martial art or sport?

 

[SPQR]

Hi SPQR, (For the Senate and people of Rome?)

When I said that boxing and wrestling had been 'reduced' to combative sports, I did not mean they lost their combative effectiveness. I used the term 'reduced' because a martial art is not a sport, and boxing and wrestling have been lowered to a form of physical entertainment like badmiton or volleyball.

Ju-jutsu was not 'reduced' into a combat sport by the development of judo. Judo just rendered ju-jutsu into a more humane form of self-defense. Dr. Kano never intended to treat his judo as a sport, and he never referred to judo as a sport in any of his papers that I've read so far.

I do not believe a martial art becomes a sport as soon as you step into the ring, or include it as an Olympic event. Take the judo shiai for instance; the shiai is for technique testing and rank enhancement, not to win a trophy, or rack up points, and prove your better than the other guy. Yet that is the current interpretation of the judo shiai, against the view of the founder.

Thank you for explaining your thoughts! Now I also know you are familiar with the Roman history

I am actually going to my first Judo class on Monday! Can't wait!

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Thank you for explaining your thoughts! Now I also know you are familiar with the Roman history

I am actually going to my first Judo class on Monday! Can't wait!

Good for you. Don't let any aching muscles discourage you from working out hard.

I was at a judo tournament this morning, I was acting referee (shimpan).

 

[Hollywood1340]

Rude Flamers, huh? How bout losing trolls?

 

[bignick]

Hi SPQR, (For the Senate and people of Rome?)
Take the judo shiai for instance; the shiai is for technique testing and rank enhancement, not to win a trophy, or rack up points, and prove your better than the other guy. Yet that is the current interpretation of the judo shiai, against the view of the founder.

and how do you earn rankd through shiai? racking up points and winning medals

 

[Mekugi]

I don't know but the page page says "Not Found". BTW, the gi color is enforced in international events. It's pretty obvious.

I agree, click on these video clips of the All Japan Judo Championships, and other major Japanese tournaments, and try and find a blue gi in any of these AJJF sanctioned shiais:

http://www.birdsjudoshop.com/videocd_list_e.html

What does the IJF have to say about that?

q.e.d.

 

[Lisa]

I was at a judo tournament this morning, I was acting referee (shimpan).

Mr. Skerry,

Please excuse my ignorance, I don't know much about Judo... but if Judo has referees and tournaments but isn't a sport, what do they need the tournaments and referees for? Very confused....

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I don't know but the page page says "Not Found". BTW, the gi color is enforced in international events. It's pretty obvious.

Hi Russ,

To help answer the question from post #139, why does the AJJF ignore its governing body, the IJF, by not using a blue gi or the 'Golden Score' in any AJJF sanctioned event in Japan?

Try this method: type in BIRD'S JUDO SHOP

then click on: VIDEO CD on your left,

then click on the video clips of an All Japan Judo Federation tournament, such as the 2004 All Japan Judo Championship, or the All Asia Championship, or the Kano Cup, or the Kodokan Red & White tournament, and try and find a blue gi.

http://www.birdsjudoshop.com/videocd_list_e.html again for your convenience.

No blue gi's anywhere in sight! The AJJF won't use them in total defiance of the IJF, can you provide an explanation?

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Mr. Skerry,

Please excuse my ignorance, I don't know much about Judo... but if Judo has referees and tournaments but isn't a sport, what do they need the tournaments and referees for? Very confused....

Hi Nalia,

All that extra apparatus of refs, judges, scoreboards, points, etc. etc. were all acquired when judo was adopted into the Olympics. These are Western sport trappings imposed upon judo.

Also, in any contest of skill, even in chess or checkers, somebody is needed to make the winner Official.

There are even referee's in duels. So an 'official' person making a decision is fairly ubiquitous in all events, whether martial arts or sports.

The trouble is that more and more western sport regalia is being imposed upon judo to the point of distortion, judo is a martial art yet being treated as a sport. This is my point that the forced sportification of judo, might cause the end of judo. Judo might become something else.