Journey to a new style...

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by _Simon_, Feb 17, 2018.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    The claim is that the founder learned Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu from Sokaku, when the evidence points to him actually learning Aikido from Ueshiba.
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm aware of the issue. I just don't see it as much of an issue. It might make me question training with that individual (why would I train with someone who I think is lying to me), but wouldn't necessarily affect my opinion of the art or others in it.
     
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  3. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    DJN Choi's account has been supported and denied.with equal vigor. But clearly he learned his art somewhere.and knew it before he returned to Korea. So I don't think you have any credibility in saying his account is "highly questionable." Japanese policy of putting down Koreans or claiming everything Korean as their own is not "highly questionable" for that matter.

    I don't know if the KCIA director was a Hapkido practitioner or not, as that was not a topic in the news in the aftermath of the assassination of Pak Chung Hee (no other Korean president I know of has ever been assassinated). But considering the rivalry between other, more Korean MA at the time, and the fact that Hapkido has long been a preferred MA for Korean security forces, he may have been. I remember there was some problem, and the support of Chun Doo-Hwan's brother after Chun Doo_Hwan became president.was somehow part of the issue. But not knowing anything more, I again suspect MA rivalry. After all, Pak Chung Hee was shot, not Hapkidoed to death.

    "...multiple types of Hapkido?" How many "types" of other Korean arts are there? How many types of Karate or BJJ? There is indeed a lack of Hapkido combat sports. If you are the expert on Hapkido you are setting yourself up to be, that should be no surprise. But I suppose it could be turned in to that if all the worthwhile techniques could be stripped out by rules to prevent injury. But would it really be Hapkido after that? The fact that many other Korean MA instructors magically become Hapkido instructors should tell you something about the respect Hapkido has among other Korean MA. So many want to be Hapkido BB/instructors, they just don't want to spend the years studying it to be knowlegeable to teach it. What would you have me say?
     
  4. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    In my post above, I allude to the Japanese culture not allowing anything worthwhile to be of anything other than Japanese invention. Would you think family pride might have caused someone in the family to remove DJN Choi's name from the roles. Especially if there was any anger over him leaving Japan for Korea? Mind you, I don't know that anything like that happened, but Japanese pride and prejudice against Korea is no secret. But Aikido? Where did that come from?

    Early in my training, I once mentioned to my GM that I wondered if Hapkido and Aikido had any similarities. He rebuffed that. And as I progressed in my learning of Hapkido, I can see they are very different, no matter that both have roots in Daito-Ryu. But that doesn't mean Hapkido can from study of Aikido. If you can show that, from credible sources, I would be interested in that information.

    What has caused your hatred of Hapkido?
     
  5. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Wouldn't a style derived from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu be fundamentally different than a style derived from TKD and Aikido?
     
  6. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

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    What does it matter if it came From Daito Ryu, Aikido, or Mars? So long as the techniques are effective and reliable, I couldn’t care less where they originated. The origin is trivial. What matters is what’s going on in the here and now on the floor. Crap from the most distinguished person is still crap; effective stuff from Wile E Coyote is still effective. The history is mostly useless back story. It can make you feel good about what you’re doing, but feeling good about it ain’t going to save your a$$ when you need it to.
     
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  7. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Hatred? No.

    Initially Hapkido schools were doing Aikido-style wrist locks and never discussed ground fighting. However with the growth of combat sports and Bjj, we now have stuff like this;




    Both of these examples are terrible, but I'm sure both of these examples come from respectable Hapkido organizations correct? I certainly enjoyed the "Aikijutsu" method of submitting someone from Guard.... :rolleyes:

    It would appear that Hapkido adopts whatever is popular at the time and adopts it into their art, which is why I tend to believe that the founder pulled his stuff from Aikido over Aikijutsu.

    I have no problem cross-training and bringing new arts into your system, but give credit where credit is due.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  8. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I see your point, but I don't know of any time my GM lied to me, and in fact am quite sure he never did. I would worry about that from a teacher I knew lied to me, always wondering what else he might be telling me that were lies; such as "this strike is good to stop an opponent," but not telling me it is a likely death hit.
     
  9. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I think you can quit talking about Hapkido as being derived from any other Korean art; too much difference in method and philosophy. Actually, the same for Aikdo.

    Wow! how old are you? You have seen things I have never seen nor even heard of. Unless ou are talking about things Hapkido and Aikido share due to their lineage; both being from Daito-Ryu. Is that what you meant? Wouldn't seem to be pertain much to your argument though.
    ...
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not necessarily. Early Aikido was much more similar to Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. In fact, there is a vague period when the names seem to overlap in Ueshiba's art. So, TKD+Aikido blended and reformatted could look similar to TKD+Daito-ryu blended and reformatted. It would probably depend more on which period of Aikido (and which senior students), compared to which depth of Daito-ryu (I've been told by folks within Daito-ryu that Aikido appears a shallower approach to aiki, so to speak).
     
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I'm merely stating that I don't recall Hapkido doing ground fighting back in the day, now I'm seeing multiple examples of them doing it (poorly) and I'm wondering where that impetus is coming from.

    If that's what you learned, I would strongly recommend attending a few Bjj classes and learn how to actually fight from the guard position. That vid was bad on multiple levels.

    I'm saying that if you're pulling techniques from BJJ or other MAs, you should acknowledge that you're doing it instead of pretending that that stuff is native to the system in question.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  12. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Is ground grappling and the guard part of traditional Daito-Ryu?
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Perhaps they've had it a long time, and are now making it more prominent. That is happening inside NGA. It has always had some (pretty lame) ground work, and some of the instructors are working to both extend and improve that. I doubt anyone outside actual NGA practitioners had ever seen it prior to the last decade or so, because it wouldn't have been likely to show up in videos or demos.

    What kind of acknowledgement. I pull techniques from a lot of places (sometimes as entire techniques, sometimes as other ways of doing what I already know). I tend to mention the source, but not in any systematic way - just as a matter of explaining the technique. Probably doesn't happen anything like every time I teach them. Probably doesn't in any art.

    I don't know. It might be, though it wouldn't be anything like you'd see in BJJ - much simpler, and mostly less effective, I'd expect, if it existed. I don't know if the ground work in NGA came directly from Daito-ryu, from our alleged Judo roots, or was introduced later by one of the senior instructors.
     
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I'd be open for that possibility if the ground fighting emerging didn't look like a poor version of Bjj. It's literally the same techniques, but its modified to be "deadly".


    Something like this would be suitable:



    Just mention where you got the technique from. Simple.


    Well that's the problem here; That Hapkido ground fighting is VERY similar to Bjj ground fighting, just executed in a much worse way.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The ground work (sweeps from mount) in NGA would fit that exact description ("poor version of Bjj"). And it was there 30 years ago, long before I'd ever heard of BJJ. In the case of NGA, it's not even "more deadly" - just "not as good". :p


    My point is, how often, and for how long? When does a technique become part of the system? I wouldn't expect one of my students to necessarily remember where I told them a technique came from. To them, it's all NGA. And I might forget to give credit from time to time, especially if I'm talking to a group that includes people I've told before.

    And it is most likely picked up from BJJ. The picking up might have started 20 years ago, though, so what you see there might be 2nd generation - so those folks might just think of it as HKD.
     
  16. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    I realise this reply is to an old post, but honestly with the info you've put in the above, the style you need is traditional jka Shotokan.
     
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  17. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    Oh my goodness so many posts, I was puzzled by this thread update haha!

    Thanks heaps mate, yeah still on the search! I know I may not find the perfect style for me (whatever that means), but really tuning into that feeling of what 'clicks'.

    Hehe ah so yesterday was Monday and I checked out the class last night. I'm in Australia so I can't remember the difference in time zones :)
     
  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Sweep from mount? I'd be very curious to see this.

    Considering that Bjj came from Judo and we still give credit to Judo throws? A very long time.


    Hmmm, yet another illustration of my issues with that system. However, to each their own. ;)
     
  19. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    Ah right. I just called it Tang Soo similar to how people call karate-do 'karate'. But fair enough :) (this club is actually called Tang Soo Tao!).

    Ah right, am just going by club info and good ol Wiki. That's fascinating, yeah it definitely lookes to be quite Shotokan-like, in that case I may vibe with it. Cheers for the info :)
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Clearly, neither do I. Apparently, you're many hours ahead of us, so you already know what I'm going to type. :D

    I think, for most folks' purposes, that feeling of "what clicks" is far more important than any truly practical consideration. If you're having fun and don't feel like you're missing something important, who gives a damn about anything else?123
     
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