It's gotta happen

[Mark Lynn]

Dan

You have to make up mind if you want the thing to happen in OCT. and you want this old boy from TX to be there. My birthdayis coming up in August and I need to know what to ask for, like "well honey there is this camp in Oreagon that I would like to attend" , I was kind of thinking on Bram's DVDs and the Presas bolo but I would forego that if you're going to have the event artyon:

However it will take me a couople of months to convince her that I need to go, so I need the time to work on her, butter her up and get the kitchen pass you know. If I play my cards right, I might get the DVD's and the gathering artyon: artyon:

yeah right.
Mark

Dang it's late time for bed.

 

[Flatlander]

In the end, as a student, I would be more than happy to pay whatever it took to be at a gathering of the best talent that could be possibly brought together. Whatever it takes. I want to see these guys move. I want to feel it.

Whatever it takes. I said it before, I'll say it again. SM Dan, if I need to sell apples downtown to help you get the talent in, I'll do it. And I'll be there.

Peace, good Gentlemen. Let us come together in productive ways.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Guys,

In Canada now (6 hour drive and I forgot my passport - eeeyah) and am dog tired. I'm looking at a date in 2005. This is not an "in a couple of months" venture. I'm slowly talking to the principals in the instruction end before I make any kind of jump. Unfortunately, Modern Arnis is still somewhat in the American Kenpo stage, lots of infighting yet. So, I want to ensure this is goiong to come off well. Thanks for the great initial support. Now, if anyone wants to give me imput regarding promotion of such an event, send it through to me via my website.

Drowsily yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dan - this is alarming to me...where is the seminar? Where was it advertised?

Vancouver, BC. See the CSSDSC Canada website. There will be details there. Spokane is next weekend.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just a side note: If there is an abuse of the rep system, there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with it.
Contacting the admins so we can investigate = right.
Publically exploding = wrong.

Consider this notice that comments made inside the rep system are subject to the same rules as comments made in full view.

I now return you to the discussion on Dans impending total baldness.
Please direct additional offtopic discussion to a new thread.

Thank you.

 

[Dan Anderson]

I now return you to the discussion on Dans impending total baldness.

Thank you.

Dear Kaith,
If you go so blatantly off topic again I'll report you to the mods. :boing1:

Back from Canada. Had a great time cutting and smacking, smacking and cutting. Met this really cool knife maker and got a blade from him. Met some new people including the famous "Ms. Amy." Like I said, had a great time.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Flatlander]

Welcome back SM Dan. So, having had the weekend to mull it over, where are you with this? How do you feel?

 

[Dan Anderson]

I feel tired. 6 hour trip and 6 hours of sleep (heh heh). I know, I know - that's not what you meant. I have sounded out Bram and Dieter and they are for it. I need to sound out a number of the other seniors. Then I'll see. Anyone from the first list who does not want to participate, then there will be my picks from the second list. I hate to term it that way because at the top of my "next list" is Rich Parsons and anyone who has worked with him knows he is first rate.

Also, one thing I will make known right off the bat is I will keep NO personal communications private regarding the 2nd Symposium. None. If you don't want it repeated, don't say or write it to me. To do this right it needs to be completely above board.

Now, like I said in a previous post, any help regarding publicizing this, mailing lists or what have you will be greatly appreciated.

Personally, I would love to do this. This event would really rock and could be a perfect set up for the 2006 memorial event in the PI. Like I said, I need to talk to some people first.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

Cool Dan...

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help...

PAUL :asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I’ve been busy and haven’t had much online time. Let me try to catch up.

1. A good question is SHOULD they want/ask to be paid?

Why not? This is what I do for a living. My mechanic doesn’t work on my car out of some sense of loyalty to his trade. It’s because I pay him.

2. I would think travel and lodging would be a fair deal for out-of-town instructors if they don't have other arrangements.

This wasn’t done at the 1st Symposium. As a professional Martial artist I don’t feel that I should have to pay to teach, yet that is what happened at the Symposium for many if not ALL the instructors. I could be wrong maybe I’m the only one who didn’t get paid. It would have been nice if someone could have paid for dinner, drinks, even Mc Donald’s would have been ok.

3. should an instructor feel that sort of event is something larger than "just another payday"

Well it was a payday for someone. There were over 20 participants paying $195 - $295. This is $4,000 – $6,000, were did all the money go. It looks like there was "another payday" for someone. The host? http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6094&highlight=symposium

I have asked a simple question that will benefit ALL who might teach at Dan’s event. If it is out now it will make it easier to deal with it in the future. Dan and I have discussed this already. He and I are on the same page. I think some people on this thread should probably open their eyes and take a long hard look at the facts.
:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Can't be a star all the time...

Here’s the problem. At the last minute there were bunch of second generation no names put in because of instructor canceling. Why put then in at all? There were plenty of quality instructors there already. It was quite evident of the substitute’s lack of experience as well as knowledge. I feel that the PAYING members of the Symposium were given an inferior product. This has nothing to do with stardom and everything to do with customer service!

Respectfully,
DTJH
:asian:

 

[loki09789]

Well, so much for "coexisting peacefully" and not dredging up old business as you have stated on the resurrected "Interesting topic" thread, Tim.

I thought the point of the discussion was how, when, where any future symposiums would take place....

This 'bash the Symposium' business is 'old' and already has a thread if you want to start it up again. Specifics, info before you make Inquirer level 'speculations' would be nice too. If you don't know anything except that you didn't get paid/fed/or charged BUT DID get the chance to sell product and make profit from those sales that was greater than the cost of your participation fee (which you were not charged) would have been, I would say that it wasn't so bad for a short drive into the city. It was local and you volunteered to participate.

No one 'made you' say yes - even when you knew you weren't going to be paid.

As per the mods request on other threads, if it isn't on topic, please use email or PM for any 'off topic' responses.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Paul,
I'm sorry if you misunderstand where I'm coming from. This IS in responce to points that were brought up in this thread by Curren.

As per the mods request on other threads, if it isn't on topic, please use email or PM for any 'off topic' responses.

BTW, when did you become a mod?

Respectfully your, :asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

No one 'made you' say yes - even when you knew you weren't going to be paid.

Actually I was lead to believe otherwise. Had I known that the host was the only one to be paid, I wouldn't participated at the event.

Respectfully your, :asian:

 

[loki09789]

Here’s the problem. At the last minute there were bunch of second generation no names put in because of instructor canceling. Why put then in at all? There were plenty of quality instructors there already. It was quite evident of the substitute’s lack of experience as well as knowledge. I feel that the PAYING members of the Symposium were given an inferior product. This has nothing to do with stardom and everything to do with customer service!

Respectfully,
DTJH
:asian:

IT was quite evident...what are you trying to say with that line?

If, by lack of experience, those who presented weren't doing Remy Re enactments, you are right on. Lack of knowledge? This is the attitude that I am referring to in my last post when I was talking about the "That isn't what Remy Taught" mentallity. What was demonstrated was done because of instructor cancellations, but was used as a chance to show how RP's teachings have been taken in different directions/applications.

If I remember correctly, for those paying customers who were looking for first gen instructors, there were plenty to pick from during every instructional rotation. Dan, you, Tom Bolden, Bram, Dieter, Jerome....not the full list, but even with the cancellations, plenty of 'old guard' types to satisify that 'RP Authenticity' itch.

Those who wanted to see other ways/directions that RP's MA concepts were being used could see the others.

I graded one of your instructional sessions on the floor, Tim. I graded your instructional presentation well as well as your material. The knife stuff you were doing was based MA but your own organizational material...so, it was how you chose to "make it your own."

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Paul,

I was just responding to Tim and Rich C. We all have different opinions. I didn't say there wasn't 1st gen people there, what I said was there was no need for the second string to teach. I'm sorry if you misuderstood the intent of my post. :asian:


Respectfully yours, :asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

For me, a 2nd Symposium would consist of the senior students of Remy Presas, preferably long term first generation students or high rankers.

This is what I meant. Some of the people who taught at the 1st event weren't even black belts in Modern Arnis.

Respetfully yours, :asian:
DTJH

P.S. - I'm off to bed.

 

[loki09789]

Actually I was lead to believe otherwise. Had I known that the host was the only one to be paid, I wouldn't participated at the event.

Respectfully your, :asian:

In business transactions, no one 'leads you to believe' anything. I am sure that, like your mechanic, you know how to ensure clarity in verbal contracts/agreements to avoid confusion and to promote clarity.



I know Jerome well enough to know that in money dealings he keeps his ducks in a row. He has to when dealing with the college. If he was in the habit of double dealing, his name would have been in the paper like the former Dean, and I stress FORMER .

I think discussing the private transactions/business dealings in any specific detail this way is tasteless to say the least, but I will say that Jerome knows how the money was spent/earned. I do know that there were some cases when Jerome honored discounts, covered 'paid' invites, didn't charge instructors in recognition instructional time did cover some accomodation/meal coverages for out of towners but the case by case specifics would be known to those directly involved and not by you. Why begrudge him a paycheck when that is what you are seeking.

Just ask him instead of dodging his attempts at direct communication, resolution and really finding a productive "peaceful coexistence" instead of running from him.

If you wanted to know more, just ask Jerome, instead of these implicative comments, as if Jerome ran a scam on the attendees.

But,really is getting paid that big a deal when you did get to sell product and you were getting local exposure for your school? If you don't mind offering up your school to Bram for free, what is a few hours on the floor instructing when you get to work out with and train under some of the other "old guard" in return for your time?

Again, these questions/topics have been covered about the last symposium. Rich's question was really in the direction of fraternity building, not to be used as a way to open up old garbage.... which you claim NOT to be interested in discussion in the spirit of "peaceful coexistence"


If you would answer any of Jerome's attempts to contact/communicate with you, you might be able to talk this old business out with him/seek real understanding instead of talking about him in front of other people - even when you don't say his name outright.



Am I a mod? No, but I did read and was hoping that we could both honor BART's request from the "Interesting topic" thread.

 

[Emptyglass]

I feel that the PAYING members of the Symposium were given an inferior product. This has nothing to do with stardom and everything to do with customer service!

OK, now let me see if I have this straight. After a year of smashing, bashing, and trashing the first Modern Arnis Symposium and pretty much everything to do with it in every respect you are now trying to tell everyone that you are the champion of customer service on behalf of all of the people who slighted due to the quality of the instruction?

So, who, pray tell, has complained about the quality of the Symposium or the instructors? I haven't seen anything but positive reviews as to the instruction from the people who attended and decided to report upon it. Who was dissatisfied or felt they wanted their money back? I paid full price, in advance for the Symposium and I certainly don't feel cheated.

I came away from that event with new knowledge, new friends, and new contacts. Mostly because I went in with an open mind and heart in the spirit of further learning and love for the art.

Who were the inferior instructors which you (in your esteemed estimation) felt were not worthy of instructing there? Punong Guro Tom Bolden? Senior Master Bram Frank? Senior Master Dan Anderson? Datu Deiter Knuttel? Yourself? That's 5 rather high-ranking and esteemed Modern Arnis instructors in one seminar. Most people would be quite satisfied with 2 intensive days of instruction of that quality. Were you not paying attention during those 2 days? Did you miss all of these people?

Who were the second raters? Dawhud Muhammud? Rich Parsons? Paul Martin? Tim Kashino? Paul Janulis? Sifu Peter Vargas? Everyone seemed quite pleased with their presentations. I certainly was. Please state who you feel wasn't up to snuff. You made that accusation of people being second raters. Please follow through and give us your opinion.

Also, what's the deal with this first generation/second generation elitism. Good information and concepts are good information and concepts. Maybe some second-generation students were more talented or paid more attention than their instructors (this is a hypothetical reference and not a criticism of anyone). Maybe their instructors were very good in their own right and had a different take on the art than the Grandmaster. Who cares? I'll learn from anyone who can teach me something, regardless of their removal from a system head.

My questions were based upon my belief that the purpose of the Symposium were two-fold. First and foremost to show the world that some students have RESPECT for the Grandmaster of YOUR martial art who is now gone and to show everyone that even though the man has died, the spirit of adaptation, inventiveness, and creativity which he applied to the classical arts of his homeland (the Philippine Islands) and which he chose to share with all of us are still progressing and being cared for as if he was still here. You were invited to be a part of that celebration. I guess that doesn't mean much to you. I considered it an honor.

Secondly, to attempt to show everyone in the martial arts world that the spirit of brotherhood, cooperation, and LOVE OF THE ART existed between practicioners of Modern Arnis (and its derivatives and supporting systems) and that politics, greed, market share, popularity, and ego have not dominated entirely within the Modern Arnis family as they have in many other martial arts systems who have lost the system head and fallen into strife and squabbling for superiority.

If you want to talk to Senior Master Dan about money, why bring it up here? Why not, as you have stated you have done, discuss it with him privately? If you feel you should have been paid and weren't, why not take it up with Dr. Barber and ask him for an accounting of the funds. Oh, that's right, you won't meet or talk with him.

As a participant of the first Modern Arnis Symposium, I have to say that your current rash of internet whinging about it over a year later smacks of sour grapes to me. If you want something done about how you were treated/compensated/rewarded, take it up with the people or persons who can do something about it. We can't help you with that. Either let it go or make a move. I would and I'm not even a high-ranking, world-travelling Modern Arnis datu with his own organization, students, etc...

For anyone out there who feels I am being disrespectful or rude to their instructor, friend, Datu, system head or whatever, please understand that I've known Tim Hartman since before he or I ever started learning Filipino Martial Arts (about 20 years). We attended the same high school, lived in the same town, had the same friends and hung out in the same places. He introduced me to the Filipino Martial Arts at John Bryant's school in Buffalo, NY in the mid-80's and for that I am grateful as he opened my eyes to a whole world of learning and culture which has affected me profoundly. That being said, this behavior is beneath the status of someone who is supposed to be a Datu as I view it. Also, I was never his student which may have shaped some of my opinions and my willingness to speak them.

All of this from a lowly non-first generation student of Modern Arnis of no stature.

With the deepest sincerity and respect for the Art and those who progress it,

Richard S. Curren
Satisfied attendee of the first Modern Arnis Symposium, July 2003

 

[loki09789]

Paul,

I was just responding to Tim and Rich C. We all have different opinions. I didn't say there wasn't 1st gen people there, what I said was there was no need for the second string to teach. I'm sorry if you misuderstood the intent of my post. :asian:


Respectfully yours, :asian:

Actually I was asking about the convoluted "It was quite evident of the substitutes lack of experience as well as knowledge" statement. That isn't very well stated and I am seeking clarification. I don't 'craft' when I post here either, so I just want to know what you wanted to say with that.

As far as your intent, connotations and implications... it is pretty clear.

BTW, how is it that so many of your posts got reshuffled? I have been watching this thread and suddenly you have posts ahead of others that weren't there before this last hit?