is yoga considered a form of martial arts ?

[Xue Sheng]

Well we agree on one thing... it is not a martial art

Yeah, no. There was something called "yoga" in ancient times in India. No relation to what is taught now, and nothing to do with America. The 'new' yoga started in India as the 'old' one did. But they are in no way related to each other. Yoga as practiced today anywhere is not ancient.

Well there is Classical Yoga and Contemporary yoga much like there is Wushu and Modern Wushu but enough about that. Let’s just say that I am pretty sure you are wrong based on history and you are pretty sure I am wrong and because experience has shown me that further discussions here with you would be pointless, believe what you want and I will do the same.

If you read the link, it's qualified instructors who are being injured. It's dangerous stuff. And it doesn't take much to wreck yourself pretty badly doing it. It was a fad in India when it was 're-invented', it was a fad in the freaky fuzzy 1960s when it came to America, and it's a fad now. A dangerous fad that I hope fades away again fairly quickly.

Read it and it is one article. You could just as easily find a plethora of articles and studies that tell you it was very good for you and before you come at me form the POV of "Then show me" "or "Prove it" nope, not gonna happen since I really do not care if you think it is dangerous or not. If you really want to know the truth of it you will do the research yourself from an unbiased perspective, that is the best way to learn

Want to argue about yoga and it being healthy or dangerous take it over to YogaForums, I am sure you will get your answers...or your argument there

Have a great day Xue Sheng is out... peace... or to better stay within the spirit of the thread...Namaste (which I realize does not mean peace)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well we agree on one thing... it is not a martial art

Agreed.

Well there is Classical Yoga and Contemporary yoga much like there is Wushu and Modern Wushu but enough about that. Let’s just say that I am pretty sure you are wrong based on history and you are pretty sure I am wrong and because experience has shown me that further discussions here with you would be pointless, believe what you want and I will do the same.

I find more evidence for historic yogic practices being religious or spiritual in nature than combative. In face, I can't find any evidence for yoga ever having any martial applications at all. I'd be grateful for any links that purport to show this.

As to the argument I make about the Yoga being practiced today not being ancient, I give you this, direct from the mouth of a noted author on the subject:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tU...mic breathing and harmonic gymnastics&f=false

Pages 3 and 4 are quite instructive. Yoga is, as I have said, not ancient, and not an American invention. It was invented out of nearly whole cloth in India in the late 1800's, from whence it spread to various nations and became a fad.

Read it and it is one article. You could just as easily find a plethora of articles and studies that tell you it was very good for you and before you come at me form the POV of "Then show me" "or "Prove it" nope, not gonna happen since I really do not care if you think it is dangerous or not. If you really want to know the truth of it you will do the research yourself from an unbiased perspective, that is the best way to learn

Want to argue about yoga and it being healthy or dangerous take it over to YogaForums, I am sure you will get your answers...or your argument there

Have a great day Xue Sheng is out... peace... or to better stay within the spirit of the thread...Namaste (which I realize does not mean peace)

http://www.yogajournal.com/lifestyle/908

Insight from Injury

If the practice of hatha yoga was meant to heal, why are so many yogis getting hurt?

By Carol Krucoff

...

Like me, growing number of Americans are getting injured doing yoga—an unfortunate trend touted in news stories with headlines like "The Wounded Warrior" in the Washington Post (April 16, 2002) and "Power Yoga Can Cause Powerful Aches and Pains" in the Los Angeles Times (December 13, 1998). Often media reports express surprise that this ancient healing discipline can actually cause harm, especially since many people take up yoga specifically to heal injuries. Yet like any form of physical activity, hatha yoga practice carries risks—especially for people who push themselves or are pushed by teachers to "achieve" a particular pose, explains Leslie Kaminoff, a New York yoga therapist and bodyworker, who regularly treats yogis with both acute and chronic injuries linked to improper practice.

And has been pointed out, the term 'improper practice' is used here. Well, yes. That doesn't change the basic premise; injuries are endemic and on the rise, and if it's due to improper practice or the phases of the moon, it's still an increase in injuries and still correct to say that yoga is dangerous.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/02/13/debate-over-yoga-injuries-is-anything-but-relaxing/

http://www.layogamagazine.com/issue33/departments/yogainjuries.htm

Yoga Injuries

On the Rise and Unreported.

By FELICIA M. TOMASKO

Whispers exchanged on elevators, furtive confessions or rumors circulating as to why a certain teacher doesn’t teach at a particular center. These are not scandals spreading, but the undercover revelations of injuries sustained in yoga practice – particularly within a classroom setting.

Yoga is supposed to protect the practitioner from injury. In fact, therapeutic regimes are often designed to heal injuries sustained somewhere else. But according to confessions, rumors, under-the-breath admissions and even statistics, people injure themselves in yoga classes. And these injuries are climbing.

Types of injuries vary. Some recently overheard stories include a yogi who broke their leg in a particularly vigorous partner yoga class, shoulder injuries from overdoing a flow sequence, torn hamstrings in hanumanasana (full splits) or pulled back muscles in bakasana (crow pose).

Larry Payne, who developed the Yoga Rx therapeutic training program at Loyola Marymount University, asserts he is sought out by injured yogis, predominantly with neck, back, shoulder or wrist injuries.
Although hard statistics documenting yoga injuries are scarce, some are available. According to the U.S. Consumer Products Safety Commission, a government reporting agency, 5,000 people were injured in yoga classes in 2005. The commission obtains their numbers from 100 selected hospitals around the country. Five thousand represents a marked increase in injuries; in 2004, the only other year for which this data is available, 3,700 injuries were reported. Since these numbers represent merely 100 hospitals, and not everyone who is injured in a yoga class necessarily visits a hospital, real numbers are likely much higher. The Fitness and Wellness Insurance Company, when asked, did not provide statistics on claims made or paid related to yoga injuries.

So, it's more than one article. It's on the rise. And yes, Yoga is dangerous.

I'm sorry if you choose not to discuss it, but that's up to you.

At least we can agree that Yoga is not a martial art.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You will find similar stretching, stances, etc. in the Indian martial art from kerela called Kalaripayattu. (just a little bit not that much to draw any conclusion in my opinion) However, I would not say that Yoga as we know it is a martial art. Not even close! There simply is no "martial" in it. So there you have it!


Bill people can be damaged doing any activity including walking.


I have to side with Xue Sheng on this!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill people can be damaged doing any activity including walking.

Here's the difference. No one goes to a 'walking class' where specially-trained and certified instructors combine a presumed mystical and ancient tradition with modern health notions to create an atmosphere of trust, and then encourage people to 'walk' in ways which have a strong possibility of causing injuries, especially if done 'incorrectly'.

If Yoga was a 'stretching class' and did the exact same stretches as the 'poses' being done in modern Yoga classes, I'd have less of an issue with it.

But here's the thing. By asserting that Yoga is thousands of years old, part of a mystical and body-mind health tradition that stretches back to the dawn of time, by claiming to be tapping into universal ancient wisdom, inexperienced practitioners are encouraged to give their trust to their instructor. After all, if people have been bending themselves in thus-and-so pretzel position for thousands of years, it must be safe, right? And then combine that with subtle coaching where one is encouraged to 'do more' and to 'push it to the limit' and you have a cult-like culture that having conditioned people to disregard common sense regarding their own bodies, now takes them into what could be dangerous territory.

Sorry, the crust of the biscuit for me is not the stretches. It is the culture, and especially the culture that is based on historically-incorrect information; not to go so far as to call it a lie.

This is not unknown in martial arts, as I'm sure you know. Describe a mystical and ancient wise tradition which the acolyte is joining, and encourage complete trust in whatever the instructor tells you. Some people will retain their individuality and common sense in such environments; some will not.

 

[geezer]

...But here's the thing. By asserting that Yoga is thousands of years old, part of a mystical and body-mind health tradition that stretches back to the dawn of time, by claiming to be tapping into universal ancient wisdom, inexperienced practitioners are encouraged to give their trust to their instructor. After all, if people have been bending themselves in thus-and-so pretzel position for thousands of years, it must be safe, right? And then combine that with subtle coaching where one is encouraged to 'do more' and to 'push it to the limit' and you have a cult-like culture that having conditioned people to disregard common sense regarding their own bodies, now takes them into what could be dangerous territory...

This is not unknown in martial arts, as I'm sure you know. Describe a mystical and ancient wise tradition which the acolyte is joining, and encourage complete trust in whatever the instructor tells you. Some people will retain their individuality and common sense in such environments; some will not.

Bill, I agree. IMO yoga is not a martial art, but what you said in the bolded script above comparing some of the attitudes in Yoga and MA classes is soooo true. Most martial arts are not as old as they purport to be either. And most of them probably aren't that "safe"...even when you cut out the sparring and just focus on fitness. In the several martial arts and martial sports I've practiced over the last 40 years, I've frequently seen instructors, even so called "masters", advocate questionable and even dangerous practices. I don't care if if it comes straight from Sensei, Sobum, Sifu or Guro's mouth. Caveat emptor.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Agreed.



I find more evidence for historic yogic practices being religious or spiritual in nature than combative. In face, I can't find any evidence for yoga ever having any martial applications at all. I'd be grateful for any links that purport to show this.

As to the argument I make about the Yoga being practiced today not being ancient, I give you this, direct from the mouth of a noted author on the subject:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tU...mic breathing and harmonic gymnastics&f=false

Pages 3 and 4 are quite instructive. Yoga is, as I have said, not ancient, and not an American invention. It was invented out of nearly whole cloth in India in the late 1800's, from whence it spread to various nations and became a fad.



http://www.yogajournal.com/lifestyle/908



...


And has been pointed out, the term 'improper practice' is used here. Well, yes. That doesn't change the basic premise; injuries are endemic and on the rise, and if it's due to improper practice or the phases of the moon, it's still an increase in injuries and still correct to say that yoga is dangerous.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/02/13/debate-over-yoga-injuries-is-anything-but-relaxing/

http://www.layogamagazine.com/issue33/departments/yogainjuries.htm



So, it's more than one article. It's on the rise. And yes, Yoga is dangerous.

I'm sorry if you choose not to discuss it, but that's up to you.

At least we can agree that Yoga is not a martial art.

Look to Georg Feuerstein also a noted author I could list more but I will not you wish to label new and dangerous, so be it.

Point is you will find what you want to find both reputable and not so reputable and for every article you produce there is a match to the contrary and I see no reason to go further.

Like I said before Namaste

 

[Jenna]

Yoga is not intended as a martial art per se.

I believe though, in common with other brain-body meditative techniques, there are applications to many disciplines not least martial.

You perhaps read the below stories of PrahladJani from last year? If it were true, as appears to be proven, this kind of extreme bodily control -or even a kind that allows any form of bodily control (pain suppression etc.) - I think would have martial applications or could be utilised in a martial setting?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...o-have-had-no-food-or-drink-for-70-years.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani

Interesting posts by all so far.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You perhaps read the below stories of PrahladJani from last year? If it were true, as appears to be proven...

Oh dear. I don't even know where to begin. Let's just say that I don't consider them to be proven in any way, shape, or form. If you do not eat, you die. Anyone who claims otherwise is selling something.

 

[Steve]

Can we all agree that yoga pants are awesome?

 

[Blindside]

Can we all agree that yoga pants are awesome?

Also ahistoric, but yes, awesome.

 

[clfsean]

Can we all agree that yoga pants are awesome?

They can be.

Like anything similar ... priviledge, not a right...

 

[oaktree]

I don't think any type of Yoga is a martial art and if it were than any recordings of it are secret, lost or not translated into english.

Yoga is not modern or founded in the 1800's. We have the Yoga sutras of Patanjali dating to 100-500 BCE, The Bhagavad Gita and other sutras before than time period that speak about Yoga. If you are refering to Hatha Yoga accepeted date is 15th century or so. Tantra Yoga dates to at least first century since certain Tantra text have reached China by the early 700's. We also know that the Chinese looked at and exchanged idea with Tantra and Yogi practicers which is why you find
similar patterns, and ideas in Chinese Qigong texts and religious writings.

Yoga in itself is not dangerous. It depends on the person practicing it and not knowing 1.Proper practice 2. Knowing the limits of oneself. In martial arts a person requires a degree of stretching it is not the martial art or the martial art teacher's fault if the student stretches himself beyond his physical limit. Not every Yoga teacher though certified is a good teacher same as not every certified martial art teacher can guarantee your safety in class.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yoga is not modern or founded in the 1800's. We have the Yoga sutras of Patanjali dating to 100-500 BCE, The Bhagavad Gita and other sutras before than time period that speak about Yoga. If you are refering to Hatha Yoga accepeted date is 15th century or so. Tantra Yoga dates to at least first century since certain Tantra text have reached China by the early 700's. We also know that the Chinese looked at and exchanged idea with Tantra and Yogi practicers which is why you find
similar patterns, and ideas in Chinese Qigong texts and religious writings.

None of the ancient religions and practices labeled 'Yoga' have any relationship to modern-day yoga, as yoga historians themselves freely state. Yoga is not ancient, it is modern, as it is practiced today. At one time, different varieties of Yoga consisted of rituals like pulling thread through your nose, or sucking water up through your anus and expelling it again, or deep meditation of a spiritual nature. Not 'downward dog' postures.

Was there something called 'Hatha Yoga' in the 15th Century? Sure. Was it even remotely like 'Hatha Yoga' today? Nope, not even close.

Yoga in itself is not dangerous. It depends on the person practicing it and not knowing 1.Proper practice 2. Knowing the limits of oneself. In martial arts a person requires a degree of stretching it is not the martial art or the martial art teacher's fault if the student stretches himself beyond his physical limit. Not every Yoga teacher though certified is a good teacher same as not every certified martial art teacher can guarantee your safety in class.

The articles I have cited show that even advanced students and qualified instructors are being injured by practicing Yoga. And even assuming that 'good instructors' are the key to not being injured, how is the average student to know the difference? Certificates on the wall? Reputation? Price? Yoga is a fad that is currently popular, and has a cult-like following of people who refuse to admit that it is not all things to all people. This is a danger sign, right there.

 

[Flying Crane]

The articles I have cited show that even advanced students and qualified instructors are being injured by practicing Yoga. And even assuming that 'good instructors' are the key to not being injured, how is the average student to know the difference? Certificates on the wall? Reputation? Price? Yoga is a fad that is currently popular, and has a cult-like following of people who refuse to admit that it is not all things to all people. This is a danger sign, right there.

Is there anything in the above that could not be said about martial arts, on some level?

Seriously Bill, what's your point? Do you expect everyone to say, "oh hey, I didn't know that, thanks for setting me and the rest of the world straight!" and then the yoga industry collapses overnight? Is that what you expect to happen if you go on an anti-yoga campaign here?

I'm reminded of the futility of internet debates: Hey! Some dumb guy said something stupid on the Internet, and I gotta straighten him out!!

 

[oaktree]

I think Bill we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Is there anything in the above that could not be said about martial arts, on some level?

If you read the thread, I did say that.

Seriously Bill, what's your point? Do you expect everyone to say, "oh hey, I didn't know that, thanks for setting me and the rest of the world straight!" and then the yoga industry collapses overnight? Is that what you expect to happen if you go on an anti-yoga campaign here?

I'm reminded of the futility of internet debates: Hey! Some dumb guy said something stupid on the Internet, and I gotta straighten him out!!

What's my point? What's anyone's point? I have stated my opinion on Yoga and defended it. That's all.

 

[oftheherd1]

what are your opinions ?

My opinion is that I am curious why you don't have an opinion. This thread is on its third page and you have offered nothing.

What is your opinion?

 

[Jenna]

Can we all agree that yoga pants are awesome?

Agreed yes. I bet you look stunning in these Steve

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well whaddaya know.... it is a martial art after all

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well whaddaya know.... it is a martial art after all

I concede defeat. Dear Lord.