is this sword decent???

[rocket999]

Alright. I am new here, so let me introduce myself. My name is Sam Kelly, and I have been training in Tang So Do for six years now. I have had my black belt for a year now.

I am looking for a new sword. It won't be used for cutting, just for katas and practice. I have a very small budget. While looking around I found this one.

http://www.swordsoftheeast.com/masahiroassembleyourselfsamuraiswordblack.aspx

Does anyone own this sword? Is it solid? Would it be a good choice? I originally saw it listed for $200 on another website before I saw it there.

Keep in mind that I won't be using it for cutting. I know how much those would cost...

Thank you for any input.

Sam Kelly

 

[Sukerkin]

The short answer, as you probably expected, is a resounding "No!". .

The slightly longer answer is that for your first blade you do not want something you are going to have to assemble yourself when you don't know the first thing about swords.

The only real answer that you can get is to talk with your sensei and see what he or she recommends. The only thing more dangerous than a shinken in the hands of someone untrained is a cheap 'wallhanger'.

It speaks to your good-sense that you thought to ask at a place where people might know what constitutes a decent enough sword but we really can't give you meaningful advice by remote, so to speak.

 

[Sukerkin]

Even for 'just' kata practise, which is what most Japanese swordwork is, you need to get the best blade you can afford. Here are a few links to places where you can get swords of sufficient quality:

http://www.jidai.jp/ready-mlist.asp

http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/40.htm

http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/items.asp?CatID=22

Of these, my personal recommendation is Tozando. I've used one of their high-end iaito for five years or more now and it is superb. Of course it is also by no stretch of the imagination a 'budget' item.

With swords, you get what you pay for and a blade you buy cheap will usually turn out expensive in terms of either lawyer or hospital bills . As such, if you can't stretch to a decent one now, work with a bokken until you can.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I'm with Sukerkin, I wouldn't touch it.

The discription screams all sorts of things that are out of place, a handforged blade?? Yeah...right...not likely.

Shop around. An halfway decent beginner iaito is in the $400 range.

My first choice, (yes he is my sensei)... is http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

Good luck, let us know what you decide.

 

[jks9199]

The price doesn't add up. "Assembly" of a katana (whether iaito or shinken) or similar blade isn't where the cost is; making it properly in the first place is where the bulk of the cost is. And they're essentially advertising this as a shinken or live blade.

I understand the budget issues -- but Sukerkin has it right. You can learn the motions and technique properly with a bokken for a fraction of the price of either an iaito or a live blade.

FYI -- an iaito and a shinken should probably be rather closer in price than not. After all, the primary difference is a step in finishing -- namely sharpening the blade!

 

[Sukerkin]

Just to round out Ken's post above, Kim Taylor does indeed have a high level of 'gravitas' when it comes to the JSA.

From what I have heard, never having owned any of his products myself, they are well regarded ... from my own personal experience I'd still recommend Tozando {and, no, I'm not on commission :lol:}. It's just that they are the blades of which I can speak with the confidence of use.

 

[MBuzzy]

NO WAY! Don't buy that sword. I've bought an already assembled, quality blade for less than $500, but I wouldn't touch one like this unless I was an expert.

Try:

www.martialartswords.com

 

[Chris Parker]

The price doesn't add up. "Assembly" of a katana (whether iaito or shinken) or similar blade isn't where the cost is; making it properly in the first place is where the bulk of the cost is. And they're essentially advertising this as a shinken or live blade.

I understand the budget issues -- but Sukerkin has it right. You can learn the motions and technique properly with a bokken for a fraction of the price of either an iaito or a live blade.

FYI -- an iaito and a shinken should probably be rather closer in price than not. After all, the primary difference is a step in finishing -- namely sharpening the blade!

Agreed to everyone saying to avoid this item completely, but just to clarify a point here JKS, an iaito and shinken are not just seperated by which is sharpened. A shinken (live blade sword, true sword) is made of steel (traditionally tamahagane, in different carbon levels for different purposes, strength, the ability to take an incredibly sharp edge, flexibility to take impact etc), whereas an iaito is typically made of a zinc/aluminium alloy, which is too soft to take and keep an edge, nor take much in the way of impact. An unsharpened steel sword is called a mogito. It essentially is just a shinken but not sharpened, however it can be if you desire down the track.

So there will be a larger gap between the pricing of an iaito and shinken, as the fundamental materials are different.

 

[jks9199]

Agreed to everyone saying to avoid this item completely, but just to clarify a point here JKS, an iaito and shinken are not just seperated by which is sharpened. A shinken (live blade sword, true sword) is made of steel (traditionally tamahagane, in different carbon levels for different purposes, strength, the ability to take an incredibly sharp edge, flexibility to take impact etc), whereas an iaito is typically made of a zinc/aluminium alloy, which is too soft to take and keep an edge, nor take much in the way of impact. An unsharpened steel sword is called a mogito. It essentially is just a shinken but not sharpened, however it can be if you desire down the track.

So there will be a larger gap between the pricing of an iaito and shinken, as the fundamental materials are different.

Thanks for the correction. Still, I would expect that a quality iaito should probably not be too far in price from either shinken or mogito, no? It still needs to be made to withstand the forces of training without bending, the grip and hilt must be properly made, and so on.

(And this particular item is claiming to be a shinken, as I read the ad!)

 

[rocket999]

Thank you for the responses. I looked at the links, but I really can't pay that kind of money.

What kind of blade would I want? I want something that is reasonably tough, so it can withstand some light abuse. I am doing some research and it seems like I want a differentially tempered blade made from something like 1060 steel. Is this correct? Something like this?http://www.handmadesword.com/351.html

Look at the video at the bottom of the page. He bends the sword quite a bit and it returns to normal. That may come in handy.

Am I getting warmer?

Sam

 

[Ken Morgan]

Thank you for the responses. I looked at the links, but I really can't pay that kind of money.

What kind of blade would I want? I want something that is reasonably tough, so it can withstand some light abuse. I am doing some research and it seems like I want a differentially tempered blade made from something like 1060 steel. Is this correct? Something like this?http://www.handmadesword.com/351.html

Look at the video at the bottom of the page. He bends the sword quite a bit and it returns to normal. That may come in handy.

Am I getting warmer?

Sam

?? So you want a blade for contact? umm why? You said you will only be using it for kata?
For contact, don't use anything anyone has suggested, in all seriousness just use a bokken.

 

[Bruno@MT]

?? So you want a blade for contact? umm why? You said you will only be using it for kata?
For contact, don't use anything anyone has suggested, in all seriousness just use a bokken.

Or a fukuro shinai if you are looking for sparring opportunity.
There is a reason why kendoka use a shinai and wear significant armor. Even free form sparring with a bokken is dangerous enough that I would avoid it.

 

[Chris Parker]

Thank you for the responses. I looked at the links, but I really can't pay that kind of money.

What kind of blade would I want? I want something that is reasonably tough, so it can withstand some light abuse. I am doing some research and it seems like I want a differentially tempered blade made from something like 1060 steel. Is this correct? Something like this?http://www.handmadesword.com/351.html

Look at the video at the bottom of the page. He bends the sword quite a bit and it returns to normal. That may come in handy.

Am I getting warmer?

Sam

Hi Sam,

To be completely blunt here, if you can't afford something like the suggestions above, save until you can. Until then, a bokken is going to be your ideal.

Really, it comes down to what you want it for. The very cheap ones are best for little more than a "decoration", rather than use. If you are doing kata with it, are you meaning drawing (as in iai), or with the blade drawn (such as kenjutsu or kendo kata)? For the first, look to an iaito not anything being advertised as a shinken. For the latter, really, stick to a bokken until you can afford something that is much safer than the ones you have found. I'm going to repeat that for emphasis. Until you can afford something much safer than the ones you have found.

If, however, you are wanting to do something with contact, if a partner is involved, a bokken is designed for this. If you are wanting to do some cutting, get advise from your instructor, and do not buy anything without getting them to check it out first! If you do not have an instructor and want to get into cutting, don't! Or, at the very least, make sure all your hospital insurance is up to date, and don't do anything around anyone else!

But I do have to ask, why is it handy if he can bend the sword, and then bend it back? All that shows me is that the build is not for contact/cutting/any form of impact at all. Not really ideal other than for the aforementioned decoration, I feel.

 

[Bruno@MT]

But I do have to ask, why is it handy if he can bend the sword, and then bend it back? All that shows me is that the build is not for contact/cutting/any form of impact at all. Not really ideal other than for the aforementioned decoration, I feel.

This is actually something I can speak about with any sort of 'authority'


That sword is waaaay to bendy to be designed for real cutting. You can see the man does not even have to lean into the effort. If you make hard contact with that blade, it will seriously 'wobble' and mess up both the cut and the edge. I sincerely doubt, from that test alone, that the edge material has the rockwell hardness I'd expect of a japanese sword. Imo, a katana treated like that should snap. And I wouldn't want to be near it when it happened without full leather apron, gloves, and face protection.

While it says 'clay tempered', there is an anomaly that has me doubting that it has been done properly. If you look at the bottom video on that page, at 01:07 there is a picture of the kissaki. The hamon line does not continue into the kissaki. There is an abrupt change at the yokote (the line between the length wise part of the blade and the point) that either means the hamon is not the result of differential hardening, OR the point was ground on the blade later on and not forged. Either possibility is bad.

Then there is the price. These swords can be bought in bulk for about 120$. That is nothing. 120 will buy you a mass produced quality pocketknife. Not a hand made clay tempered sword. Even a small handmade knife will set you back a couple hundred dollars for something made by a relatively unknown person like myself (I make straight razors btw). I know firsthand how much time and effort goes into making a knife by hand. 120 is simply too little to expect anything from that blade. The materials alone probably cover a significant percentage of the price of that sword. Then there is the fact that some of the price is profit. that leaves only a handful of dollars to turn a piece of steel bar into a handmade sword.

That sword is good only for hanging on the wall and looking at it. If you start swinging it around and try to cut things with it, accidents will happen sooner or later because that thing is not made for it.

If you want a sword that can withstand contact, you'll have to pay more than that. If you can't afford that, then you'll have to save up until you do.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, a quick re-read of the OP shows that Sam is not interested in cutting, so that's one less worry with such a blade! Cool.

I'd still advise strongly against, though. Cheap blades tend to be cheap thoroughly, through from the blade itself to the handle and fittings. To let you know, typically a sword is held in place in the tsuka (handle) by one, or sometimes two, bamboo pins, called mekugi. If these are not of sufficient strength, they can break inside the handle, allowing the blade to fly out when performing a cut. Something of this quality I would not expect the mekugi (or equivalent, I'm not expecting anything "traditional" to actually be present....) I simply wouldn't trust to be swinging around under any circumstances.

A number of years (decades) ago, during an Iaido demonstration, the mekugi broke during a cut, allowing the blade to fly freely out of the tsuka. It struck a (from memory) 4 year old girl in the chest, killing her. Now, I'm not expecting that you would be doing such a thing in public, but it can still do a fair bit of damage!

This, by the way, is why there is such an emphasis on care of your weapon in sword arts, particularly the Japanese Sword Arts. Knowledge of how to use your sword is woefully incomplete without knowing how to care for it, and ensure that it is always in safe working order. Think of a sword the same way you would a firearm, with the exception that you don't need to reload any ammunition. These weapons demand respect, and these items don't really qualify I'm afraid. Have the respect for your art and yourself, and save for something that would be worth the money.

 

[MBuzzy]

Thank you for the responses. I looked at the links, but I really can't pay that kind of money.

What kind of blade would I want? I want something that is reasonably tough, so it can withstand some light abuse. I am doing some research and it seems like I want a differentially tempered blade made from something like 1060 steel. Is this correct? Something like this?http://www.handmadesword.com/351.html

Look at the video at the bottom of the page. He bends the sword quite a bit and it returns to normal. That may come in handy.

Am I getting warmer?

Sam

Why does it have to be a steel blade? Why doesn't a bokken suffice? Or possibly a saegum or kagum (Korean terms for practice swords, usually made from aluminum or some other blend, but mimic the weight, feel, and "sound" of a real blade)?

Honestly, if you can't afford a real quality blade, then you shouldn't be purchasing one at all. It will only endanger your safety and the safety of those around you.

 

[lklawson]

Why does it have to be a steel blade?

Because most cultures that have developed the sword, including ours, have a special reverence for the sword. It equates power, prestige, wealth, and authority in a way that few other icons ever have.

The Knights of the middle ages were primarily horse-mounted lancers. The Samurai were more often horse-mounted archers or any number of other things. The french Musketeers were firearms the experts of the time. The Pirates, Privateers, and Naval soldiers of the Age of Piracy were more likely to prefer a pistol, long-barrel, blunder-buss, or mounted gun than a cutlass. But, in our collective consciousness, when we think of any of these, we think of their swords.

There is a mystique to the sword that almost no other weapon has (the Bowie Knife and the Colt SAA "6-shooter" have come close in the U.S. and the walking-ax has a special place in the Carpathian mountains).

Ah... but the sword!

That's why it has to be a steel blade. Don't tell me you don't own one.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Chris Parker]

Absolutely, Kirk. I personally think this has a lot to do with the fact that the sword was developed pretty much exclusively for the killing of other human beings, so it represents the power over the lives and deaths of other people (hence it being symbolic of so many kings/emperors/etc), as opposed to other weapons that were designed initially as hunting tools, and then adapted, such as spears, bow-and-arrow, knives, even rifles. But swords, like pistols, are not really suited to hunting due to their (relative) short range. But they are incredibly effective at seperating someone from their life.

Of course, you do know that that was not what MBuzzy was refering to, right?

 

[MBuzzy]

Because most cultures that have developed the sword, including ours, have a special reverence for the sword. It equates power, prestige, wealth, and authority in a way that few other icons ever have.

The Knights of the middle ages were primarily horse-mounted lancers. The Samurai were more often horse-mounted archers or any number of other things. The french Musketeers were firearms the experts of the time. The Pirates, Privateers, and Naval soldiers of the Age of Piracy were more likely to prefer a pistol, long-barrel, blunder-buss, or mounted gun than a cutlass. But, in our collective consciousness, when we think of any of these, we think of their swords.

There is a mystique to the sword that almost no other weapon has (the Bowie Knife and the Colt SAA "6-shooter" have come close in the U.S. and the walking-ax has a special place in the Carpathian mountains).

Ah... but the sword!

That's why it has to be a steel blade. Don't tell me you don't own one.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think you misunderstood me....I am 100% aware of the reasons why a sword should be steel....

I am asking why the OP is so intent on getting a jingum (live blade)? If it is only for Kata, as many other have said, a bokken or practice blade will do and he can get it at the cost that he's looking for. I have developed a very healthy respect for live blades through years of cutting practice and I firmly believe that you should use very strict judgement as to when you use a live blade. I do practice my forms with a live sword occassionally, because I think it is necessary, but not every time. Not even close. I still only use a bokken most of the time.

Another reason I ask is that I also train in Tang Soo Do and I realize that some schools do train weapons, but sword IS NOT a primary part of the curriculum - I would be surprised if it was even introduced before cho dan. It just doesn't seem like enough time to be practicing forms with a live blade to me. Even some of my most basic sword forms can be very dangerous to practitioner and observers if not done with care.

 

[MBuzzy]

And yes, I own one. Samgakdo though....(three angled blade only for cutting tamashegiri (excuse my japanese, I only know the Korean terms, so I'm trying to get better with the Japanese terms))....for many of the same reasons we're talking about. I would LOVE to have a yukgakdo jingum (back to Korean, a bamboo cutting sword, the real thing), but I can't afford one of sufficient quality. The samgakdo that I own I got at an incredible deal for only $400 from a master who had an extra.