Good thinking, FC. I was only pondering earlier that we had talked through the issues, regarding first sword purchases, before 
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is this sword decent???
- Thread starter rocket999
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #62
It's time to upgrade because my sword is a wall hanger (Since I found this out I haven't been using it).
My instructor really does know the sword.
Why I was asking about the sharp blades is because it they are tough enough to withstand cutting, they are going to be fine for practice (which is why I asked about it for cutting). If I were to practice with it I would dull the blade. I have done this a few times, and the results are REALLY good. Reading over the thread, I forgot to mention this!
What I saw in those cheaper swords was a tough blade able to withstand accidental droppings or me hitting something by accident. They are able to bend and return to straight and they are full tang and double pegged. What I thought was that once I dull it, it would make a good durable practice sword.
Now what I have been asking in the later half of this thread is what brands you would recommend in this price range. You are all just saying that I need to save up to over $500 for a good sword. The thing is, I have seen about four reviews for this one low priced sword (the Musashi bamboo katana). The have all used it for cutting water bottles and tatami mats and it has held up very well for them. Since I am not going to be using it for cutting, it seems that it would hold up even better.
For any of you who have had a cheap sword: Where are cheap swords prone to breakage? Would the blade separate from the handle? Would the blade break? Pretty much everyone is saying that they are just cheap, but how so?
They are using it for cutting, and if it is tough enough for that, how could it not be for kata (especially when dulled)? I don't want to come off as someone who doesn't want to listen to advice, but I forgot to add that I would be dulling the blade. Sorry about that!!! (for some reason I thought I had said that...)
I'm sure you will all have a lot to say about this...
Sam
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I'll take a stab at giving you some things to think about, tho I'm not an experienced katana swordsman. So I could certainly be off on some things that I'll say.
First off, there are quite a large number of types of steel, each with it's own characteristics, meaning it's flexibility, ability to be hardened and take an edge, toughness, etc. I do not believe there is any single type of steel that can be considered the best for a sword, in a purely objective way. Modern steels can be manufactured with a high level of quality and consistency in the product, and if you know what you have and it offers the characteristics that you want, you can generally trust it for what it is.
Traditional katana were/are made with different types of steels layered together, to capitalize on their different properties. This technique developed out of an era before modern foundries could produce the variety of high-quality steels available today. The traditional method created a specific type of steel with specific characteristics that worked very well for a katana.
I personally do not believe that it is an automatically "better" steel. But it was made and used for a very specific purpose.
With swords coming out of Chinese forges, there is some notoriety for them not being consistent with quality of workmanship, as well as quality of steel. I practice the Chinese arts, and Chinese sword techniques, and I'm amazed at the wide discrepancy between Chinese-made swords, all coming from the same factory. Seems they slap together whatever might be handy at the moment.
You don't know just what kind of steel you've got there. It might be good, or it might not. Stainless steel is usually considered a poor choice for a sword blade. The chrome content that makes it resist rusting also makes it somewhat brittle, and breaks up the grain of the steel. This makes it prone to cracking and breaking it if you hit something with it. I saw a TV commercial on the Shopping Network where they were selling some cheap wall-hangers that are typically made of stainless steel. The guy grabbed on of the swords and banged it on a cutting board. The blade snapped and flipped back, stabbing him in the arm.
It doesn't have to be stainless to be bad. Other types of steel might not be a good choice for a sword blade, or the hardening and tempering might not have been done properly which can leave it open to breaking or not performing as expected, or otherwise failing. You often just can't be quite sure what you've got with a Chinese-made weapon.
When a sword fails, it can be a hazardous situation.
The other thing is the construction of the hilt. Katana hilts are rather complex, compared to other types. Youve got the wood core with the rayskin wrapping and the cloth wrapping over that, and it needs to be fitted tightly on the tang, with the guard and the collar that holds it in place, and the pegs that hold it all on the tang. There's a lot of pieces there that need to fit tightly and smoothly together. If they come lose, it can leave the blade loose in the handle. This can cause the hilt to wear out quickly and breakage to happen, which can lead to a blade flying out of the grip. Poor workmanship or poor materials, or a poor fit in the hilt might not be obvious to someone lacking the experience to recognize them. It might seem tight and strong, but it wears lose quickly because of poor quality materials, or workmanship. Now you've got a blade with a loose hilt that is unuseable, and it'll cost you a lot more to have a new hilt made for your blade. Shouldda just saved up for that better sword in the first place.
I rebuild Chinese style swords for Chinese martial arts (non-katana style), because most of those coming out or the Chinese factories are horribly constructed. The hilts are very poorly assembled, and have all kinds of problems. Nothing fits right, and everything is lose right out of the box. So I started rebuilding my own hilts to fit onto a decent blade. I've seen so many junk swords from China that I'm cautious of anything coming out of China, including the "better" Chinese katana clones like the Musashis, that arent necessarily obvious wall-hangers.
I like my Musashi for what it is and for what i paid for it, but I recognize that it should be considered to be one of the lowest of the "real" katana clones. It's components are not obviously lose the way the typical other Chinese-made swords are. But I can't state with any level of certainty that it's well-made, or that the quality of the materials is high, and that's enough to make me a bit nervous about them.
I use my other swords when practicing my Chinese sword techniques, and I don't use the Musashi. It wouldn't be appropriate.
But when the Zombie Apocalypse hits and all my friends gather at my place for arming, sure, I'll bust out the Musashis and hand them around as well, for the beheading of those who refuse to remain dead. But other than that, I've got a healthy reluctance to push it much and risk going beyond its limits.
You are asking questions that might not have precise answers. But hopefully this will give you some perspective.
First off, there are quite a large number of types of steel, each with it's own characteristics, meaning it's flexibility, ability to be hardened and take an edge, toughness, etc. I do not believe there is any single type of steel that can be considered the best for a sword, in a purely objective way. Modern steels can be manufactured with a high level of quality and consistency in the product, and if you know what you have and it offers the characteristics that you want, you can generally trust it for what it is.
Traditional katana were/are made with different types of steels layered together, to capitalize on their different properties. This technique developed out of an era before modern foundries could produce the variety of high-quality steels available today. The traditional method created a specific type of steel with specific characteristics that worked very well for a katana.
I personally do not believe that it is an automatically "better" steel. But it was made and used for a very specific purpose.
With swords coming out of Chinese forges, there is some notoriety for them not being consistent with quality of workmanship, as well as quality of steel. I practice the Chinese arts, and Chinese sword techniques, and I'm amazed at the wide discrepancy between Chinese-made swords, all coming from the same factory. Seems they slap together whatever might be handy at the moment.
You don't know just what kind of steel you've got there. It might be good, or it might not. Stainless steel is usually considered a poor choice for a sword blade. The chrome content that makes it resist rusting also makes it somewhat brittle, and breaks up the grain of the steel. This makes it prone to cracking and breaking it if you hit something with it. I saw a TV commercial on the Shopping Network where they were selling some cheap wall-hangers that are typically made of stainless steel. The guy grabbed on of the swords and banged it on a cutting board. The blade snapped and flipped back, stabbing him in the arm.
It doesn't have to be stainless to be bad. Other types of steel might not be a good choice for a sword blade, or the hardening and tempering might not have been done properly which can leave it open to breaking or not performing as expected, or otherwise failing. You often just can't be quite sure what you've got with a Chinese-made weapon.
When a sword fails, it can be a hazardous situation.
The other thing is the construction of the hilt. Katana hilts are rather complex, compared to other types. Youve got the wood core with the rayskin wrapping and the cloth wrapping over that, and it needs to be fitted tightly on the tang, with the guard and the collar that holds it in place, and the pegs that hold it all on the tang. There's a lot of pieces there that need to fit tightly and smoothly together. If they come lose, it can leave the blade loose in the handle. This can cause the hilt to wear out quickly and breakage to happen, which can lead to a blade flying out of the grip. Poor workmanship or poor materials, or a poor fit in the hilt might not be obvious to someone lacking the experience to recognize them. It might seem tight and strong, but it wears lose quickly because of poor quality materials, or workmanship. Now you've got a blade with a loose hilt that is unuseable, and it'll cost you a lot more to have a new hilt made for your blade. Shouldda just saved up for that better sword in the first place.
I rebuild Chinese style swords for Chinese martial arts (non-katana style), because most of those coming out or the Chinese factories are horribly constructed. The hilts are very poorly assembled, and have all kinds of problems. Nothing fits right, and everything is lose right out of the box. So I started rebuilding my own hilts to fit onto a decent blade. I've seen so many junk swords from China that I'm cautious of anything coming out of China, including the "better" Chinese katana clones like the Musashis, that arent necessarily obvious wall-hangers.
I like my Musashi for what it is and for what i paid for it, but I recognize that it should be considered to be one of the lowest of the "real" katana clones. It's components are not obviously lose the way the typical other Chinese-made swords are. But I can't state with any level of certainty that it's well-made, or that the quality of the materials is high, and that's enough to make me a bit nervous about them.
I use my other swords when practicing my Chinese sword techniques, and I don't use the Musashi. It wouldn't be appropriate.
But when the Zombie Apocalypse hits and all my friends gather at my place for arming, sure, I'll bust out the Musashis and hand them around as well, for the beheading of those who refuse to remain dead. But other than that, I've got a healthy reluctance to push it much and risk going beyond its limits.
You are asking questions that might not have precise answers. But hopefully this will give you some perspective.
Why go to all the trouble to by an inferior product with inferior workmanship and really inferior wrappings only to dull it down. Save up and buy good quality iaito and when your ready a good quality shinken. Trust me you will be glad you did and that you did not waste a ton of money of poorly made products.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Water bottles are not considered "proper" traditional tameshigiri targets. Green Bamboo or appropriately selected and prepared tatami are the traditional targets (when convicted felons aren't available
).Don't misunderstand me, my personal position is that water bottles have a place in some kinds of test cutting for some purposes. But they're not traditional JSA and I doubt you'll find ANY recognized JSA sensei who teaches tameshigiri with water bottles. More likely a look of horror or distain.
Some few traditional JSA instructors will teach/use rolled sheets of paper or even cardboard tubes on rare exception. But these are the exception rather than the norm.
The same goes for other kinds of popular test cutting media such as "pool noodles," various ballistic gel setups, actual meat, and even "armoured" targets which are gaining popularity with non-JSA (primarily WMA) communities.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I've been practising the JSA for 11 years now and I've done test cutting a total of 2 times.
I have no interest in it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you a three foot long razor blade will cut through wet rolled up mats easily. I know for a fact that I can teach someone off the street how to do it in 20 minutes or so, its not a difficult skill to learn.
Tameshigiri makes one hell of a mess of the dojo, it scratches blades and is, as I've said boring, after the first couple of swings.
IMO
I have no interest in it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you a three foot long razor blade will cut through wet rolled up mats easily. I know for a fact that I can teach someone off the street how to do it in 20 minutes or so, its not a difficult skill to learn.
Tameshigiri makes one hell of a mess of the dojo, it scratches blades and is, as I've said boring, after the first couple of swings.
IMO
So why would you want to buy another? You've been advised that the odds of getting a decent sword in the price range you're talking are slim to nil.
And he or she let you use a sword-like object rather than insisting on a proper sword? What style of sword? What is his or her background? Because I think you're being sold a bill of goods -- especially if this instructor isn't providing you guidance on what sword to buy. (By the way -- you don't have to answer those questions publicly... but if your instructor can't answer them for you... that's what we law enforcement types call a clue.)
Look, Cold Steel makes good blades. But the honest truth is that about 2/3 of their products are quality imitations of what they are supposed to be. They all cut... but that doesn't mean they are balanced properly or made in the same manner as the real item. And none of their stuff is cheap! Cutting videos only prove that the sword can go through that material. They say nothing about how well the sword held up, or what shape it was in a day or two later... or if it really functioned the way it was supposed, or took too much muscle or the wrong leverage to do the cut.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Cold Steel's knives are good and have a good reputation. Their swords seem to be hit-or-miss and most sword experts find them to be poorly balanced or have some other defect that prevents them from being as accurate as said expert requires. Some of their western themed swords are considered "ok" but those are often reported to be too heavy, too thick, improperly tapered, or poorly balanced. One western sword expert and researcher I know bought one of their military sabers (the 1890, ims) and disassembled, reground it to the proper taper, reset the angle of the tang, then remounted. It's not a wholly different sword, but, as it came from the factory, it was not acceptable to him. The quality of the steel and its heat-treat along with the serviceability of the fittings was acceptable, it was only in the execution of the parts and blade that he found flaw.
That seems to be the general feeling among sword experts on Cold Steel's sword offerings.
For myself, I do not believe that their western saber offerings are generally "historically inaccurate" in terms of weight, balance, and the like. But, instead, would most closely represent the munitions grade, factory churned, swords that would have been issued to troopers or officers who could not afford to buy a "quality sword" in the period.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
