Is this a legitimate gym or mcdojo

Discussion in 'Beginners Corner' started by BJJwannabe91, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, and I referenced Ueshiba's Aikido as an example of where this has worked. What's your point?
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, and Koryu arts have a purpose that goes beyond learning to fight. Part of their purpose - as has been explained to me by someone who is involved deeply in them - is to maintain the tradition of the art for its own sake. Nothing about that really supports the assertion that someone learning an art that orginated in another country should learn the terminolgy in the original language.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I doubt folks learning the terminology in a foreign language - without learning the full language to a reasonable competency - are getting any real understanding from that terminology. Yes, there is often some nuance lost when something is translated, but that nuance is still lost when the words are used without really understanding the language.

    I didn't contest whether your students would get any benefit from learning tradition and language. I took issue with your assertion that that's how it should be. If I want to learn language and tradition, there are places to do that. Many people don't really want that. I strongly assert that the tradition and language do NOT have a direct tie to understanding the principles of an art, beyond any philosophical principles (which are often deeply cultural). Bodies work the same way in any language.
     
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  4. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    upload_2021-1-24_14-8-31.jpeg
     
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  5. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    I dont know how it started or this is relivent but since its on lingustics.

    The dialect you translate anothers langauge into seems to matter a lot, i was thinking about it for how you would teach what ever langauge to english speakers from diffrent dialects. Like the nuance of using Street or Road or if the langauge in translate has a word for both of them.


    I do not how ever get why Filipino martial arts uses Spanish(in English speaking countries) still, English is a recognised langauge. So if they are teaching FMA in say the US, why bother using Spanish? You are talking to people in English, in a English speaking country, is there any point in shoving in choice words of Spanish in there for names? Names that have English translations mind you. Obviously, if they dont know this langauge, they obviously wont use it, but thats sort of besides the point. (and yes Spanish is regonsied in the Philipines so are a lot of regional langauges, but i would question why you wouldnt use pure Spanish in Spain? I dont think they would go about it the same way in Spain if they are using Spanish as they would in say the U.S)

    Kind of rambley, but its sort of always bugged me to just use choice words from a foreign langauge, unless you are learning it. (but that has little place in teaching as it just breeds confusion) Like, you are both English, in a country where English is a recognised langauge or the main langauge, just use English. I also semi view it as disrespectful a you arent learning the langauge, just choice words and phrases in it.



    Koryu has legitmately confused me. Granted its a expanisve term for any martial arts before the Meji restoriation, so generalising it to anything is pretty hard to do and has issues. But i have seen people claim their group is for hisotrical preservation (and they do exist for that goal) so they are effectively the Japanese version of a HEMA club or a liviing history group (although hyper focused on martial technique preservation). But then my issue there is, secrets have no place in historical preservation, if you want it preserved all your information needs to be open and doccumented. Keeping things secret is counter intiative for continued preserverance of this knowledge. (the previous model seems to be the main model Koryu follows though, so this would be a fair assertion, the (main)rule in koryu is historical preservation)

    But, we all know the elephant in the room, there are people who claim the previously stated model is "great for self defence", or mis undertstand the purpose of it. (be that their fault or the schools fault, or both parties) Exeptions to the rule exist, but its not really Koryu anyore by definition if it tackles contemporary issues and fighting in the contemporary world its*. I also know martial arts schools have been a front for paramilitary training and the like. Anyway before my ramblings go way off topic, i just had to get those two off my chest and they arent so far gone. (this is wihtout getting into the dynamics of naming and names not alway being reflective of what is done)


    * I completely forgot the word that is used here, like drew a complete blank. What ever the word that denotes the martial arts in japan post Meji restoration goes here. I thought it was Budo but thats martial way, and Kobudo and Koryu are effectively synonyms here.
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    It's going to depend very much on how the words are pronounced whether people from other countries understand it or not. I've heard some very different pronunciations of the same Japanese word due to regional accents as well as the very different pronunciations between British English and American English, the word 'bouy' comes to mind. In both the meaning is the same but pronounced differently enough to be very confusing to understand. This would get more confused with people used to different languages using the word.
    Non speakers of Japanese/Chinese/Thai etc. could make things harder and less comprehensible by pronouncing words wrongly.
     
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  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    A lot of the concepts don't have other names. What is the English translation for hubad?
     
  8. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    That one is rather easy; naked
     
  9. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    Perhaps it's because there are people who want to learn the art?

    This issue seems to me to be emblematic of a trend towards entitlement and a lack of appreciation of the learning process, and the proprietary nature of some knowledge.

    We have people these days on the one hand asking for instruction from someone, in a topic they don't know yet (hence the instruction) BUT then deciding that they know how best they should be instructed.

    It seems to me that if a teacher of Filipino MA wanted to teach his/her MA using the language they are familiar with... that's kinda their right. Feels to me like going to a boxing gym and telling the coach 'no, I want you to call a hook a loop, a cross a straight and and uppercut a pitch'.



    I think you have misread what was intended by the idea of 'historical preservation'. Koryu are entirely about the continuation of the ryu - that is what the 'stream (of knowledge)' refers to. But that does not mean 'they are effectively HEMA or a living history group'. They are neither. HEMA people re-create from old manuscripts what they think HEMA looked like. Living history groups exist to share history with people.

    Koryu are not interested in sharing with people. Nor are they specifically interested in 'preservation' in the sense that you imply - unchanging, re-enacting. It CAN be koryu and address contemporary scenarios, if the ryu decides to- koryu can and do change in physical shape, while aiming to continue the essence or key character of the ryu.

    I think you were looking for 'gendai budo' - 'modern MA'
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If we don’t have a usable translation, how do we explain the term to new students?
     
  11. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    How could you not have a usable translation? Presumably if you are teaching the term, you can present the translation you were taught?
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The same way you would explain anything that doesn't have a comparable concept.

    What do you call a computer?
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That was my point. If we can explain it sufficiently, then we have the words for the concept. The problem is likely to be brevity or overlapping concepts (where the original word may be able to communicate both, but our translation needs two terms).
     
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  14. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    they are generally going there to learn the fighting method usually. I generally hold the stance going to a martial art for cultrual reasons is shoddy samr with langauge. you get maybe a very high notes version of it and maybe a high notes version of a antiquatated version of the culture.



    they should in theory be familiar in english if they are teaching it ina english speaking nation, or be familiar in English due to its recognised langauge status in the philipines. Generally speaking you tend to learn your regional one (if you have one) then one or both of the state wide ones. Like in Wales you should end up learning both English and Welsh.

    Anyway, its a slippery slope for me that i am not fully comfortable with, if they only know say Spanish then the argument is void, they will use Spanish and get a translator.




    That just looks like what i wrote and just rewording it. Now onto what HEMA is, HEMA and Koryu are pretty much the same, the only reason they differ is due to the circusmtances surrounding most HEMA, most HEMA died, therefor needs to be reseracted from avalible sources. There are some Koryus that have died and been resserected. And last i checked to preserve something you are probbly going to have to look into old treatises anyway as a refrence and to see waht previous people have stated on the matter.

    Living history is a muilti faceted term, and largely exsits to fill the gaps in doccuemntation and material culture and actually living it, ergo you show and live how they would live in the peorid to better undertsand how it would be done and to fill in some of the holes for some of the more mundane tasks and the like. there is no prerequsit of publicity in it. (they normally do as its generally more entertaining than pure academics)


    See this is the issue in regards to addressing literally half of the martial arts in Japan, its really expansive. But glossing over what i have addressed before about my views on doccuemntation and secrets.

    I dont think they can be koryu and address contemporary issues, what really makes them koryu and not a post meji martial art? There is a very definitive thin line if you start to play about with it. Like i could maybe forgive you holding a seminar for modern japanese self defence law and weapons law so you get some practical value out of your knowleddge but i think thats pushing it. We are probbly going to have to agree to disagree on that one, its very semantical. (this is not to mean a punch counter made in 1100 is going to be fundementally diffrent just because it was made in 1100 as opposed to now, principles of attack and defence remain the same out of the finite pool of functional principles and techniques)


    Addednum: didnt really acknowledge the second paragraph when i wrote my first paragraph on koryu. I dont think it matters that much as opposed to me trying to reword my reply to two but in case it does a notation, so it might look off.

    Not sure if that was the one, but as long as its definition fits it doesnt matter for specfics.
     
  15. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    They do normally have another version in the host langauge, it wont be 1:1 but thats the best you have. Best example i have is, why explain what Mushin is, when you can just use a English or (insert langauge here) term that everyone knows in the class and save the time explaining it to get the point across. I usually end up having to ask what the injected foreign words mean, as you have probbly seen where somone uses something like "sobe" or "kihon"* (now i know what both are, well unsure of the first) Lord help you if the word means something diffrent in English, like Gun. In Chinese martial arts thats a form of staff, now you tell me what that is in English? something completely diffrent.

    * You could just easily use Teacher and Basics/Fundementals.

    I am not that militantly agaisnt it, i jsut dont see the point if they dont have any intrest in learning the langauge just to inject some bastardisation of the host culture into someone who doesnt live there and probbly has no want or desire to and just wants to hit things. (people who have a want and desire for culture dont generally seek out MA schools as a first choice, its normally langauge and culture classes) It should really be a opt in system.

    Addendum: I think it was aptly expalined by Gp in his conversation with you after.
     
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  16. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Anyone else notice the OP never responded back since the first post? Yet there have been 4 pages of responses. :D
     
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Gotcha. So you don't need a usable trantranslation to explain
     
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  18. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    I generally hold to the idea that it's not wise to assume to know the motivations of an entire population of people myself. Do you think it's a smart move to approach a teacher and tell them what aspect of their art they should teach you?


    Regardless of what languages a teacher speaks, if they choose to teach you terms from the art's original language - your position is that you should be able to tell them not to?


    I can only say I disagree, and think you have missed my point.

    HEMA and koryu are not at all the same. HEMA by definition re-create technique; there are no extant continuing schools of archaic western swordsmanship. NO koryu have 'died and been resurrected'. That is literally counter to the definition of koryu. The reason koryu don't need to 'look into old treatises' (though they have them, and do) is because they have been continuously taught since their creation.



    Well, for someone who said koryu confuse you, you sure seem set in your views on them. This discusses the issue, and Ms Skoss says it better than I can:
    Keiko Shokon Revisited: Introduction
     
  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    as a paying customer, you really should have the moral right to be instructed in the language of the country the instruction is taking place, going to japan and insisting on english may be pushing it to far, but if they have the capacity to provided an english translation they really should

    when my instructor uses japanese, i look at him blankly till he provides it in english, if he didnt i would still be stood there at the end of class and would then go somewhere else that was more accommodating

    i have no wish at all to learn a few words of japanese or any Japanese for that matter( i maxed out my useful requirment with karaoke) and unless someone can make a case that kicks are better if called something else, i cant see any good reason to go to the bother
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  20. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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