Is this a legitimate gym or mcdojo

Discussion in 'Beginners Corner' started by BJJwannabe91, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. BJJwannabe91

    BJJwannabe91 Yellow Belt

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    Salem Muay Thai - Krav Maga Salem - Salem, Oregon

    Im thinking of signing up at this gym but I'm not sure if it's legit, can someone look at the gym through the link I provided and tell me if it's legit? Im a beginner and I've taken some bjj classes but I don't know nothing about striking and they offer muay thai and I'm wondering if that program is legit.
     
  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    it depends what you want, i suppose, reading between the lines, it makes a great play of its fitness building, and i have no doubt if you sign up youl end up very fit, very quickly ,

    whats not so clear is if the striking practice, is only bags or if you get to hit people eventually, which has the down side of people hitting you, belive me being smashed with a mt elbow isnt much fun.

    this is easy to answer, go along and see what happens,, if you really want fighting skills, you want to see people actually fight, if you dont want a fratured eye socket, you may be happier if they dont

    proper mt is really really hard core, do boxing at least they are not supposed to elbow you in the face
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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  4. Tenshin

    Tenshin Yellow Belt

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    Some thoughts.

    It seems more focus on Krav, guns, fitness which is fine. The Muay Thai they offered not sure, most people teaching have a coach, Kru, or Arjarn title, having a fight record isn't necessary though helps, he may have just studied for 20 years and teaches what he knows. They are affiliated with snake pit catch wrestling so that is a plus, I do not know about Krav. I would go try a class or 2 and see how the Muay Thai is, my Muay thai Muay Boran Arjarn teaches everything in Thai so hopefully that guy does too.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Unless you speak Thai, I’m not sure what the benefit is in someone teaching in Thai.
     
  6. Tenshin

    Tenshin Yellow Belt

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    When you learn an art you should learn the terminology of the art.
    When I study Muay Thai and Muay Boran the terminology is in Thai, When I do Karate the terms are in Japanese. When I teach we use the terminology of the arts language and not English
     
  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Well above average website and social media. Stout instructors list but very limited in ring experience, if that matters to you.
    It is wise to look for references but the only way to really know is to try it out. Do you have any experience? If so lean on that (the good And the bad) when making your opinions. I strongly recommend setting down and making a list of what you feel you are looking for and try not to go into this or any other class with 'dreamy' expectations. If they are coming from you internally that is fine but if it sets there and simmers at the dream stage it will eventually burn and leave a bad taste in your mouth.
    Best of luck; keep us in the loop and let us know how it goes.
     
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Depends. It doesn't help with application. Tons of people out there that know the terms and sound smart but actually have no practical ability to use the skill sets.

    I'll use myself as an example. I know Jow Ga but I'm horrible with the names. I've been trying to learn the names but only so I can communicate with other Jow Ga students and teachers. One of the Founders Brothers is known for "not knowing the formal names" it has been said that he was kind of "street." As a result the lineage has techniques called "block punch" and "scoop hand" He pretty much renamed them for what they do and not something fancy.

    Out of all of the brothers he's the one that is talked about the most. He's less known for the "street" terminologies for the techniques but more known for his ability to use the techniques. He's well known for that.

    For me personally I place more importance on learning the application. It's much easier to fill in the gaps of terminology than the gaps of application. If you know Akido and all of your techniques are named after food, then I would I wouldn't mind so long as you actually knew how to use the techniques.

    In the world of Martial Arts, especially TMA systems, finding someone who actually knows how to use the technique is really difficult.
     
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  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Terminology is just what we call things. I learned my primary art with almost no Japanese terms. It doesn’t really change the understanding of the principles, except that people don’t seem to waste time coming up with mistaken translations to explain things in a convoluted way. In Judo, we learned the Japanese terms, but they were just names of techniques, and no more revelatory than the English names I later learned for some of the same techniques.
     
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  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I’ve found many of the non-native terms are badly mispronounced, to the point that a native speaker can’t recognize them (and practitioners from different countries can’t, either). Add to that the fact that some instructors seem to have a knack for badly mangling linguistics and doing mental gymnastics where they don’t understand the original terms (like calling “aiki” and “kiai” reverse of the same idea), and the original terms can become a hindrance.

    Mind you, the English names of our techniques don’t seem to be any easier for students to remember (“two-hand grip from the rear, throw to the side” anyone?).
     
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  11. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Blue Belt

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    My Hapkido instructor was (still is, but not my instructor anymore) an amazing martial artist and Korean is his native language. He still renamed all the techniques things like "Punching 1" or "Twisting 3" because he felt like it was easier for Americans to remember and all he cared about in that context was that people could learn the art.
     
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  12. Tenshin

    Tenshin Yellow Belt

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    Well that is your opinion I will leave it at that since we will disagree and no point in discussing it any further.
     
  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    im intrested in what benifit you think derives from it? im of the opinion there may be some benifit, but id like to know what you think it is and how you quantify it
     
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  14. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The only real benefit that I've seen is a cultural one. but it varies. I went to one Kung Fu school where the students also learned Chinese, so not only were they able to say the terms they were able to have small conversations. I had a friend in my 20's who learned a little Korean when taking a TKD class. They learned how to ask questions and how to answer in Korean. These are the only 2 cases that I know of.

    I think if I were to be strict on terminology, I would have a native Chinese speaker come and assist with that part for the very same reason. I would also go beyond the terminology. But that's just me. I'm a language freak. Over the years I've learned Spanish, and studied Korean (to where I could read it), Japanese, Thai, and Tagalog. Unfortunately language is something that has to be used in order to keep it.
     
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  15. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I personally don't know of any schools that kept the long name translations. Except maybe Tai Chi, but then again. Tai Chi is application users are rare. I would be interested if the Applications users have changed the names to be more like the action. Using your example, "two-hand grip from rear, throw to the side" could be change to "Grip from rear and throw to side." It tells what is being done and could cover more than one method of gripping and throwing to the side.

    I've heard tiger claw to the face changed to . "Palm to face then pull" "Palm to face then grab" which is often said when teaching self-defense. It makes more sense as to the action that should be performed than saying Tiger claw to the face.
     
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  16. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    QUOTE="gpseymour, post: 2026931, member: 27826"]I’ve found many of the non-native terms are badly mispronounced, to the point that a native speaker can’t recognize them (and practitioners from different countries can’t, either). Add to that the fact that some instructors seem to have a knack for badly mangling linguistics and doing mental gymnastics where they don’t understand the original terms (like calling “aiki” and “kiai” reverse of the same idea), and the original terms can become a hindrance.

    Mind you, the English names of our techniques don’t seem to be any easier for students to remember (“two-hand grip from the rear, throw to the side” anyone?).[/QUOTE]
    My Korean GM and I have talked about this several times. Korea, particularly the north and south regions have the same inflection differences that we have in the extreme directions of the US. He also explains that there is very much a difference in the way words are said And spelled in the upper and lower classes. I do not remember ever seeing words actually spelled differently in the US but they are certainly pronounced differently.
    If you heard me speak I imagine you would correctly identify me as a southern "redneck". I have had to travel to the northern mid-west and Canada quite a lot for work. I remember very much having to 'learn' how some of my contacts spoke. Truly like a different language sometimes. Not enough to be a work hinderance but definitely enough to sometimes be annoying and make for a good laugh. I am sure the folks up there have said the same thing about my speech.

    I have seen Korean terminology written and spoken so many different ways it is kind of sad. Go the 10 school sites with terminology and 8 of them will be different even on the basic terms like body part, direction, and such.
    Since our GM is of full Korean decent with a military background I just follow his lead as best I can. Korean is a very hard language to grasp for me. One thing I really appreciate about him is he will correct someone on the spot most times. Not in a demeaning way at all but does not let too much just slide by.
     
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  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    It was difficult for me to. Learning how to say the words weren't too difficult for me, but learning the sentence structure was more difficult than I could ever imagine. My biggest mistake was trying to learn a language using English sentence structure as a guide. I would like to take Korean again in the future or try Chinese again, being that there is more opportunity to be around people who speak it.
     
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  18. Tenshin

    Tenshin Yellow Belt

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    first benefit: By learning common wording of techniques in native language you can have a better linking of other techniques and even from other styles from that country.

    Second benefit: Some words just can not be explained well enough in translations, translating comes up with the closest meaning sometimes a word can be broken down into literal meanings but when you start learning the concept of the language in context you will have a better understanding of the intent of the wording.

    Third benefit: If you are discussing an art and culture being respectful and knowledgeable by using the language associated with said art and culture does make you seem more educated and taken more serious as an expert in said field. Some of these terms have a historical significance and cultural relevance changing the name or some interpretation takes that away.

    Fourth Benefit: Makes cross communication much easier as every country will use the origins original language, I can say Kote Gaeshi and guys from Italy, France, Japan, America understand, if I say English Wrist lock they might think which one.

    Just 4 off the top of my head, it is my opinion some may agree some may not.
     
  19. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    My guess is that there's no disagreement.
    If you are looking for something that's not a McDojo then terminology probably is low on the things that make a school a mcdojo. The school that you are looking at may be a school that really knows there stuff but they are less informed on terminology. I'll use myself as an example. I could teach you to where you are good at using Jow Ga Kung Fu but your knowledge of Jow Ga terminology will be lacking. But you'll know more about the techniques than most.

    By definition, that wouldn't make me a Mcdojo. It just makes me knowledgeable for the names. (by the way I'm currently working on just for historical purposes).

    You could go to another Jow Ga Instructor who knows all of the terminology, but doesn't use the system to fight with so all of his application instructions are inaccurate and unrealistic. Because of this lack of understanding he's not able to understand the system beyond the terms and doing a form. If you are looking for a school that will teach you how to use Jow Ga then this school would be a McDojo even though the system is valid. But if the names of the terminology are more important to you then it's not a McDojo because they provide what you are looking for.

    Your original statement "Im thinking of signing up at this gym but I'm not sure if it's legit,"
    Will mean different things to different people here. For me and for some of the others here a McDojo is one that claims you'll be able to fight with what they teach, but in reality what they teach is not good for fighting. In other words they lied. If a school says that they do it for health then many of us here wouldn't label it as a McDojo.

    A school that is is "legit" means that they the people in the school is knowledgeable at what they teach and can actually use it and teach others how to use it. For many people "legit" is usually viewed as a functional system
     
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  20. Tenshin

    Tenshin Yellow Belt

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    Before I begin, I speak and read Chinese, I also teach Chinese Martial arts,

    if someone wants to teach Chinese martial arts and not use Chinese terminology that is their business, if someone asks my opinion as a Shifu and who speaks and reads Chinese if someone does not use Chinese terminology in their class what I think,

    I would think it is odd, and maybe think they do not understand the art they are teaching well enough, if it is a Chinese martial art I practice and I happen to see, feel the technique and still see they use some weird name for it, I might offer them the Chinese terminology, ask why they do not learn the Chinese terminology for it,

    if a Shifu still declines I most likely would not take them to serious as a Shifu of that Chinese martial art in my opinion.123
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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