Is Rank Revokable?

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I didnt read the entire thread so I dont know if this was mentioned.

A person can/should have their rank pulled by a system for conduct unbecoming, Foolin around with students, be arrested for drugs, selling drugs to students ect picking fights and or deliberately hurting people and other things.

Does that mean they lose the knowledge or skill..No.

It does mean that their rank is no longer sanctioned by a governing body for obvious reasons.
Which is why governing bodies have their place.

Exactly the way it SHOULD go. In the Modern Arnis world GM Presas gave me the authority to do this very thing.
:asian:

 

[shesulsa]

Yes - however - what if the rank-holder succeeds in nothing more than pissing SGM off? Absolute power corrupts absolutely, yes?

This is where I hesitate in saying rank is revocable. If you have reason enough to question the MO or character of a candidate, can't one delay the test/promotion? Then again, we all change.

This is so variable.

 

[OC Kid]

That is why most governing bodies have a governing board. So one egomaniac cannot revoke someones rank because he accidently dented his car in the parking lot.

But FWIW, I did leave a org because of a social promotion(I think he dont deserve the rank or title) of a guy to master. I dont think this guy deserves it for a number of reasons,

1) He is a idiot makes stupid decisions based on emotion.
2) He has lost all the B/B in his linage because of his nonsense. They quit because of his nonsense. But before they quit they asked the old Shihon now Soke to be placed under another Sensei for test purposes which he refused. They quit and then this guy gets promoted to Shihon in charge of the entire system.
3) He is a egomaniac and has lied to me more than once and others in that org are seeing him for what he is and are ready to leave as well. Its gonna be a blood bath there soon unless something is done by Soke or the Association Board.

Anyway enough crying about that but there should be some oversight to keep emotion out of the decisions.

 

[TigerWoman]

I think that the colored belt ranks can have their rank revoked. They are beginning students. But I do think that this has to be serious wakeup call. Something like not showing respect, calling someone a name; self-control, being in a fight that could have been walked away from. Rank can be suspended until the student changes. Other less serious infractions: penalties, like writing papers, reciting in front of class, like a paper on humility after being heard boasting in class.

Black belt rank can't be revoked. It shouldn't be given unless it is earned and the person is worthy of trust. Now, if he breaks that trust as in a major break, like cheating, putting a low belt in charge and someone gets hurt, he would be subject to sanctions, not teaching or judging at tournaments, testings. If the black belt misuses his knowledge to hurt someone wrongly, then it is up to the legal system to prosecute him. Then be sanctioned as a teacher, etc. But he keeps his black belt, IMO. TW

 

[shesulsa]

Good points, TW. There is a finality of the black rank, isn't there? Kind of like reaching 18 years of age.

 

[tshadowchaser]

A person can/should have their rank pulled by a system for conduct unbecoming, Foolin around with students, be arrested for drugs, selling drugs to students ect picking fights and or deliberately hurting people and other things.

Does that mean they lose the knowledge or skill..No.

It does mean that their rank is no longer sanctioned by a governing body for obvious reasons.
Which is why governing bodies have their place.

I agree, also if a person is a screw up or gets convicted of a felony or disrespects his training and the system by lieing, misrepresenting his rank or his background (titles in other organisations included)he should be kicked out and that rank no longer reconised

 

[TigerWoman]

I agree, also if a person is a screw up or gets convicted of a felony or disrespects his training and the system by lieing, misrepresenting his rank or his background (titles in other organisations included)he should be kicked out and that rank no longer reconised

That is probably what SHOULD happen, but would it? That person would probably go get a black belt whatever Dan he is and set up school anyway. He is still a black belt with the knowledge of the martial art. So what if it isn't recognized, he could still show his certificates of dan rank and could possibly not even give the black belt back. The public usually doesn't check that he is still affiliated with his parent organization. He might have slow going getting started but everybody starting a school starts slow. I'm playing devil's advocate here. TW

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Rank is an endorsement by an instructor or an organization. If they choose to take back their endorsement for any reason that is their right and privilege. This doesn’t take away from their accomplishments, just what their current status is. A pilot has to log a certain amount of flight hours in a year for their license to be valid, if they don’t they lose it. Does this mean they don’t have the knowledge or they didn’t meet the requirements to keep their status active?

:asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

Rank is an endorsement by an instructor or an organization. If they choose to take back their endorsement for any reason that is their right and privilege. This doesn’t take away from their accomplishments, just what their current status is. A pilot has to log a certain amount of flight hours in a year for their license to be valid, if they don’t they lose it. Does this mean they don’t have the knowledge or they didn’t meet the requirements to keep their status active?

:asian:

Well, I do have an instructor who held* a personal reason (his-not related to TKD) reason to not promote me. And master instructors can also make human mistakes of judgement. No, i again state, I do not think once they have decided to give it, can they unilaterally just take it away -- at least not without a hearing and a panel of other black belts.

Also, what happens to an aging black belt, me for instance. I am nearly 55. I am finding it harder and harder to keep up and don't feel I should jump because of health reasons. However I still want to practice TKD. So should I get my black belt stripped because I can't jump like everyone else? A pilot is risking other's lives. An aging black belt is quite different, it is only his/her life. TW
*in possible change

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Also, what happens to an aging black belt, me for instance. I am nearly 55. I am finding it harder and harder to keep up and don't feel I should jump because of health reasons. However I still want to practice TKD. So should I get my black belt stripped because I can't jump like everyone else?

No. The title of this thread is “Is Rank Revocable?” not “In what cases could rank be revoked?” I have never stripped anyone of their rank even though I was given the authority to do so. The reason why I was given this power by the GM is that one of the local instructors was being an A** and needed to go. I would NEVER consider stripping someone’s rank due to physical issues or getting old.

:asian:

 

[Rob Broad]

No. The title of this thread is “Is Rank Revocable?” not “In what cases could rank be revoked?” I have never stripped anyone of their rank even though I was given the authority to do so. The reason why I was given this power by the GM is that one of the local instructors was being an A** and needed to go. I would NEVER consider stripping someone’s rank due to physical issues or getting old.

:asian:

Very well put. Yes there probably is reason why a rank should be revoked for things like molesting a student, murder, or doing a great diservice to the organization, but it is very rare and it should be very very rare. There are some instructors who with a click of the mouse think they have the right to remove a students rank if it suits them. But at what cost to the art, and the organization.

 

[shesulsa]

Very well put. Yes there probably is reason why a rank should be revoked for things like molesting a student, murder, or doing a great diservice to the organization, ....

...or domestic violence??

 

[Rob Broad]

...or domestic violence??

an instructor doesn't need to have their rank revoked for domestic violence. They need to be hung by their belt, and then cremate the body using their certificates to help get the fire going.

 

[Brother John]

It depends on what "Rank" and "Revokable" mean to you.
I think that if you truly earn your rank, you don't need to 'wear' the rank for it to be real. Conversely...if you didn't earn it, but were "given" it anyway...wearing it doesn't make it real either.

There are political squables all the time and so-N-so's rank is "No longer recognized"...w/in certain circles.
The question remains, do you NEED it to be recognized?

Things to think about.
Still: rank shouldn't play nearly the central roll it does in most martial arts circles.

Your Brother
John

 

[loki09789]

Don't people lose rank in the military for screwing up?

Yes they can loose rank. The reason it works there is that rank and authority are one in the same. An NCO's or Officer's rank is directly related to their authority through leadership training and demonstrated technical and tactical skill. The point I was making with the "Once a Marine..." comment was that once you have 'made it', you have made it (in a skill sense). No one can take that aquisition of skill away from you because you have internalized it. If you leave for a while and came back to my program, you might have to take a 'probationary' or 'train up' period to get back to that performance level again, but I wouldn't strip or take away rank from someone who earned it.

The authority track in MA organizations of 'titles' is a different thing to me.

Most MA programs don't have leadership training directly tied to their rank strucuture (meaning a directly instructed thing just like martial arts technical and tactical skill NOT just 'expectations of conduct and behavior' that are usually implied or assumed).

I made the distinction between the 'rank' which is generally excepted to be a demonstration of a certain level of ability and understanding and the 'title' which is a separate thing from 'rank' because it deals with administrative or organizational authority. There might be 'rank' requirements as part of 'title' requirements, but 'title' usually requires other skills to be either trained or demonstrated as well as 'rank' skill in order to be worthy of it.

Not all "XYZth degree BB's" are "Grandmaster" Materiel but it makes sense that you would probably need to have the skill of an "XYZth degree BB's" level of ability and understanding of a system in order to really be able to make solid leadership/Academic or administrative decisions that affect an entire group/system.

Paul.

 

[loki09789]

It depends on what "Rank" and "Revokable" mean to you.
I think that if you truly earn your rank, you don't need to 'wear' the rank for it to be real. Conversely...if you didn't earn it, but were "given" it anyway...wearing it doesn't make it real either.

There are political squables all the time and so-N-so's rank is "No longer recognized"...w/in certain circles.
The question remains, do you NEED it to be recognized?

Things to think about.
Still: rank shouldn't play nearly the central roll it does in most martial arts circles.

Your Brother
John

Amen Brother,

I think that the misconception that martial arts rank means 'authority' and not 'skill aquisition' is the problem in these issues.

Is a martial arts school a military institution or a skill institutions? Is it a family that "strips" people of their family standing instead of resolving/supporting their Brother/Sister? There seems to be some mixed ideas about what a system/school is or is not suppose to be.

What 'model' of organization/institution is your school/system based on? If you can answer that question clearly for yourself, the issue of 'revoking rank' should be a clear one as well.

Unless a school actually has a 'job description' with duties, responsibilities AS WELL AS skill requirements for each rank AND takes the time to directly instruct those skills like they do kicking and punching and forms, there is no real 'authority' in the use of "rank" only a recognition of skill and ability.

OJ Simpson is accused/cleared of murder. There were discussions in Buffalo about taking his name off of the Stadium because of that. WHy? One has nothing to do with the other IMO. His athletic performance is legendary and can not be 'stripped' because of something he did off the field.

What can be done is that the institution 'denounces' or 'expresses their criticism/disappointement' and, at the same time, no longer refers to OJ as a great 'hero' of football, but only a great 'athletic example' on the field.

Heck, I am by no means a fan of Hitler as a human being BUT I can respect his public speaking ability, his affectiveness as a leader (at least early on) based on his successes (though NOT by his methods). I am not for pidgeon holing people into categories (happens too much in education IMO) BUT I do think that some objective, rationale consideration and separation needs to be applied when looking at these revokation of rank/stripping of titles situations.

Can you 'strip' your father/son of his role in your life? No, but you can either separate them or yourself from the relationship. There is a difference between "I have no father/son" and "We don't talk anymore."

One denies the impact of the interaction (and ignores ANY positive impacts that may have happend because you are rejecting the whole person) and the second focuses on the status of the relationship.

 

[Pale Rider]

I agree 100% with the first post made by Tulisan Paul Janulis. That situation hit me over a year ago with my prior instructor who told me that he was revoking my rank. I said the same thing! How can you revoke the rank in which I EARNED! How can you take away from me the knowledge in which I spent 4 years obtaining? Even tho he won't recognize my rank and clearly states to those who he wants to talk to and persuade - he clearly can not take away from me something that I spent blood, sweat, and tears learning. Since that time I have gone to someone who not only recognized my rank, but has since then promoted me.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I agree 100% with the first post made by Tulisan Paul Janulis. That situation hit me over a year ago with my prior instructor who told me that he was revoking my rank. I said the same thing! How can you revoke the rank in which I EARNED! How can you take away from me the knowledge in which I spent 4 years obtaining? Even tho he won't recognize my rank and clearly states to those who he wants to talk to and persuade - he clearly can not take away from me something that I spent blood, sweat, and tears learning. Since that time I have gone to someone who not only recognized my rank, but has since then promoted me.

Agreed. You can revoke a teaching certificate but not the degree earned in aquiring that certificate. The military can revoke rank because that rank denotes chain of command and not skills earned.

Jeff

 

[MichiganTKD]

I don't know how it works for other arts or organization, but this is how it works within the Kukkiwon:

If it can be proven that your Dan rank was obtained fraudulantly, then your rank can definitely be revoked.
For example, you claim Grandmaster X as your Instructor and submit a testing application to the Kukkiwon signed by him recommending you as worthy to test for 3rd Dan. It is later discovered that not only has Grandmaster X never heard of you, but you forged his signature for the application. Not only would your 3rd Dan be revoked, you would most likely be cut from whatever organization you belong to. Your Instructor would likely be cut as well, since he is responsible for you.
Example 2: Your Instructor claims you tested for 2nd Dan 5 years ago, making you elible to test for 3rd Dan. However, Kukkiwon records show you actually tested for 2nd Dan two years ago, rendering you ineligible due to the time rule. Your Dan rank would then be revoked.
However, rank cannot be revoked for behavior. In cases of disloyalty or criminal offenses, you can be cut from the organization or lose testing privileges. You will, however, retain your rank. If you are a pedophile or rapist, you retain your rank but probably never test again.

This is one reason for governing organization: establishing accepted standards so that 5 different Instructors aren't doing things five different ways.

 

[TigerWoman]

This is one reason for governing organization: establishing accepted standards so that 5 different Instructors aren't doing things five different ways.

Good point. I keep reading the "teaching" thread about different instructors teaching different ways. Makes it terribly confusing to a beginner in their art. One way until they become black, then learn all the variations. At least they have a basis. Same way with 5 different instructors that live in 5 different cities and have schools. They send their students to the master to test but need to be all on the same page. (or backroom arguments shall commence) TW