G
GouRonin
Guest
Yes?
No?
Yes with conditions?
Drop your two cents worth in and tell us why!
:soapbox:
No?
Yes with conditions?
Drop your two cents worth in and tell us why!
:soapbox:
- Status
Cruentus
Grandmaster
See....I skewed the vote....100% say no!!!
All Gore??? What about Ralph Nader?
To address the thread:
Some may disagree, but when I say "No" I am refering to Black Belt.
I was trained under the thought that Rank before Black Belt is revokeable, but a Black Belt is not. So, lets say someone makes it to Blue Belt, quits for 10 years, then returns. If they don't know anything, I could see reason for a possible demotion (although as an instructor I would never demote them for that, but I wouldn't let them progress in rank until they know what they need to know to progress). I could definatily see a demotion for bad behavior, though, in the pre-black belt levels.
I do not feel that a Black Belt can be taken from someone, once they've earned it. To me it is like a high school or College Diploma. Lets say the President of Oakland University decides to hate me, and gets on the T.V. and publically denounces me as "the worst Oakland University student ever!" I still earned my diploma from Oakland U, it is endorsed by the state, so the University cannot revoke it no matter what they want to do. Same goes for a black belt. If an instructor has a falling out with a student, that instructor can denounce that student all he wants, but I don't feel that he can "revoke" his black belt, no matter what he wants to do.
Because I think this, this is one of the reasons that I take black belt so seriously, like a College Degree. If a blackbelt is something that a student will carry with them for eternaty, then students and teachers would take the rank a bit more seriously then they do today. I think that if instructors thought about this more, then they wouldn't give out rank like holloween candy. Black Belts aren't taken so seriously anymore; some evidence of this will be from the amount of people who, I conject, will argue that a black belt should be revokable.
"What if someone quites right after black belt, and forgets everything?" I thought I'd beat you to the question. #1: If they quit after black belt, then so what. They still accomplished that goal, and it cannot be taken from them. If they return 10 years later and expect to get a 2nd degree, then they have to earn that 2nd degree the same as if they had never left; which means re-learning anything forgotton, and expanding on that knowledge enough to earn rank. #2: If they instructor did his job, and if the student truely earned the belt, then they will know how to fight, and they will know the system enough for the rank; just like riding a bike. So if they quit and come back, it will be a matter of working out rust mostly, not re-learning everything.
"What if someone decides personally that their instructor sucks, and that their own black belt is invalid, and they decide to go to another school of the same art?" I thought I'd beat you to this one too. Even if the student justifies it by saying, "I didn't learn anything from Joe Bloe, so my black belt in Sukie Karate doesn't mean anything," then it still doesn't matter. You can't change the past, you still earned a black belt from Joe Bloe's Sukie Karate, no matter what way you look at it. Now, if you decide to denounce your own rank, or leave it off your resume,' that is your choice, but you still earned it and no one can cahnge the past. Not even you. If you decide to start over as a white belt from a different instructor, and earn a black belt under THAT instructor, then you'll just have 2 black belts on your record. Not a bad way to redeem yourself, if that is your circumstance.
These are my feelings regarding the matter. I think that if more instructors felt the way I do, then more instructors would take the journey to black belt a bit more seriously. If more students also realized this, then they would put a little more thought into who and what art they want to recieve their first Black Belt from. Once recieved, there is no turning back!
Partially because I have had this thought for so long, I've never been a "rank collector." I don''t care too greatly about what my martial arts resume' looks like, because I would bet that my 1st degree earned in some arts exceeds some peoples 5th degrees. And I'll bet that I can prove it in the dojo, dojang, training floor, or street if I had to.
So remember, no matter what anyone will tell you, it's not really about what's on your waist, it's about whats in your heart, mind , body, and soul.
:soapbox: :asian:
All Gore??? What about Ralph Nader?
To address the thread:
Some may disagree, but when I say "No" I am refering to Black Belt.
I was trained under the thought that Rank before Black Belt is revokeable, but a Black Belt is not. So, lets say someone makes it to Blue Belt, quits for 10 years, then returns. If they don't know anything, I could see reason for a possible demotion (although as an instructor I would never demote them for that, but I wouldn't let them progress in rank until they know what they need to know to progress). I could definatily see a demotion for bad behavior, though, in the pre-black belt levels.
I do not feel that a Black Belt can be taken from someone, once they've earned it. To me it is like a high school or College Diploma. Lets say the President of Oakland University decides to hate me, and gets on the T.V. and publically denounces me as "the worst Oakland University student ever!" I still earned my diploma from Oakland U, it is endorsed by the state, so the University cannot revoke it no matter what they want to do. Same goes for a black belt. If an instructor has a falling out with a student, that instructor can denounce that student all he wants, but I don't feel that he can "revoke" his black belt, no matter what he wants to do.
Because I think this, this is one of the reasons that I take black belt so seriously, like a College Degree. If a blackbelt is something that a student will carry with them for eternaty, then students and teachers would take the rank a bit more seriously then they do today. I think that if instructors thought about this more, then they wouldn't give out rank like holloween candy. Black Belts aren't taken so seriously anymore; some evidence of this will be from the amount of people who, I conject, will argue that a black belt should be revokable.
"What if someone quites right after black belt, and forgets everything?" I thought I'd beat you to the question. #1: If they quit after black belt, then so what. They still accomplished that goal, and it cannot be taken from them. If they return 10 years later and expect to get a 2nd degree, then they have to earn that 2nd degree the same as if they had never left; which means re-learning anything forgotton, and expanding on that knowledge enough to earn rank. #2: If they instructor did his job, and if the student truely earned the belt, then they will know how to fight, and they will know the system enough for the rank; just like riding a bike. So if they quit and come back, it will be a matter of working out rust mostly, not re-learning everything.
"What if someone decides personally that their instructor sucks, and that their own black belt is invalid, and they decide to go to another school of the same art?" I thought I'd beat you to this one too. Even if the student justifies it by saying, "I didn't learn anything from Joe Bloe, so my black belt in Sukie Karate doesn't mean anything," then it still doesn't matter. You can't change the past, you still earned a black belt from Joe Bloe's Sukie Karate, no matter what way you look at it. Now, if you decide to denounce your own rank, or leave it off your resume,' that is your choice, but you still earned it and no one can cahnge the past. Not even you. If you decide to start over as a white belt from a different instructor, and earn a black belt under THAT instructor, then you'll just have 2 black belts on your record. Not a bad way to redeem yourself, if that is your circumstance.
These are my feelings regarding the matter. I think that if more instructors felt the way I do, then more instructors would take the journey to black belt a bit more seriously. If more students also realized this, then they would put a little more thought into who and what art they want to recieve their first Black Belt from. Once recieved, there is no turning back!
Partially because I have had this thought for so long, I've never been a "rank collector." I don''t care too greatly about what my martial arts resume' looks like, because I would bet that my 1st degree earned in some arts exceeds some peoples 5th degrees. And I'll bet that I can prove it in the dojo, dojang, training floor, or street if I had to.
So remember, no matter what anyone will tell you, it's not really about what's on your waist, it's about whats in your heart, mind , body, and soul.
:soapbox: :asian:
OP
GouRonin
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #3
Hey hey now...we all heard the rumours but we don't need to know the truth...
OP
jeffkyle
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #4
I didn't start training in MA for Rank. I started training to help me so that I don't get beat up on the street.
People do what they want, and you are supposed to follow out of "loyalty". Take My "BELT" if you wish, but you won't take my rank, and especially you won't take my knowledge.
:soapbox:
People do what they want, and you are supposed to follow out of "loyalty". Take My "BELT" if you wish, but you won't take my rank, and especially you won't take my knowledge.
:soapbox:
OP
Elfan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #5
No I don't feal that rank is revokable. Rank to me seems to me to symbolize a relashioship between student and teacher. You can't just pretend that never happened by trying to revoke a rank. In the case of people who go away for a long time and then come back, they will have to talk to the instructor and decide what is best. Wear a lower rank, some electrical tape scheme on their belt, just have that high ranking belt for a LONG time before getting a new one etc.
tarabos
2nd Black Belt
i had a feeling this topic was coming Gou...
i know of a couple high ranking kenpo guys that would more or less like to leave their current affiliation, but are aprehensive to due to the fact that they are unsure of what will happen to their current rank. i garner that i will most likely not be recognized by that orginization, the only one that really and truly recognizes it now.
it's a sticky situation but if they were to break off and do their own thing i don't really think it would matter what anyone thought of their rank and how legitimate it may be. the proof, after all, is in the pudding.
any instructor that would revoke rank for petty reasons is just an imature disgrace in my eyes and is undeserving of his or her own rank.
there are however instances that i would say a revoking or "demoting" in rank would be warranted. if someone were to commit certain acts or say certain things that were so disrespectful to the instructor, the school or the art...then by all means they should be punished somehow. there are alos instances when a student may change schools and arrive at his or her new place of training as a high rank, but comes to find that they are not living up to the standards of the rank at that particular school. then perhaps it is time to knock that student back a few levels. my instructor has done it on more than one occassion. the demoted student usually doesn't last much longer after that, but thems the breaks i guess.
long story short...if it's petty reasoning, then it's uncalled for. however there are times when revoking or demoting are just what the doctor ordered.
i know of a couple high ranking kenpo guys that would more or less like to leave their current affiliation, but are aprehensive to due to the fact that they are unsure of what will happen to their current rank. i garner that i will most likely not be recognized by that orginization, the only one that really and truly recognizes it now.
it's a sticky situation but if they were to break off and do their own thing i don't really think it would matter what anyone thought of their rank and how legitimate it may be. the proof, after all, is in the pudding.
any instructor that would revoke rank for petty reasons is just an imature disgrace in my eyes and is undeserving of his or her own rank.
there are however instances that i would say a revoking or "demoting" in rank would be warranted. if someone were to commit certain acts or say certain things that were so disrespectful to the instructor, the school or the art...then by all means they should be punished somehow. there are alos instances when a student may change schools and arrive at his or her new place of training as a high rank, but comes to find that they are not living up to the standards of the rank at that particular school. then perhaps it is time to knock that student back a few levels. my instructor has done it on more than one occassion. the demoted student usually doesn't last much longer after that, but thems the breaks i guess.
long story short...if it's petty reasoning, then it's uncalled for. however there are times when revoking or demoting are just what the doctor ordered.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Originally posted by GouRonin
Hey hey now...we all heard the rumours but we don't need to know the truth...
LOL
I believe, over the years, I have heard of one instance where a Black Belt was taken away. It was the head of the Association that promoted ... and takith away. Of note was that, the rank was later given directly from the instructor to this person, but not from the Association. So the documentation of Black could be questioned. Fortunatly his skill set could not be questioned, and he runs a very sucessful school in Arlington, VA.
I think Sigung Steven LaBounty, and others, used to say "You must keep training or retire your (Black) belt." Otherwise it is forfeit. Dishonor it and it is forfeit. Growining up in the Art with expectations like those put pressure on you, or attempted to mold you into a certain mind set, that you get what you deserve ... and have to keep working to keep it.
I see this as appropriate if this the expectation coming up through the ranks. After the energy and time invested in getting a student to Black Belt, you want them to spread the knowledge they gained. BIG NOTE: This probably makes more sense in a pre-commercial (hah! as if there was ever any such thing - we just like to think there was, in this country) Kenpo world, where it took an average of 7 years for Black. The fastest Black Belt I knew was someone training daily who was increadably talanted. He did get Black in a little over 5 or so years. Just FYI this was in the NCKKA, a Chinese Kenpo association. Obviously it could be sooner depending on the Art or variant.
When you spend most of a decade getting to Black, your teachers, the people testing you, and your fellow students get to know you pretty well. It would be hard to get a Black Belt "taken away", you just did not promote them.
I do see the other side of the coin, especially now days when a Black Belt is seen as a degree to be earned educationally. I just do not really remember lots of incompetent Black Belts in the late 60's or 70's ... but my perspective was a lot different due to my rank and experience. Maybe they were there and I did not see them. Nowdays all I have to do is walk in a tournament or visit other schools and it is easy to scratch my head and say "Black Belt? Well, OK". It means what it means (see other posts on similar topics.)
Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com
I think Sigung Steven LaBounty, and others, used to say "You must keep training or retire your (Black) belt." Otherwise it is forfeit. Dishonor it and it is forfeit. Growining up in the Art with expectations like those put pressure on you, or attempted to mold you into a certain mind set, that you get what you deserve ... and have to keep working to keep it.
I see this as appropriate if this the expectation coming up through the ranks. After the energy and time invested in getting a student to Black Belt, you want them to spread the knowledge they gained. BIG NOTE: This probably makes more sense in a pre-commercial (hah! as if there was ever any such thing - we just like to think there was, in this country) Kenpo world, where it took an average of 7 years for Black. The fastest Black Belt I knew was someone training daily who was increadably talanted. He did get Black in a little over 5 or so years. Just FYI this was in the NCKKA, a Chinese Kenpo association. Obviously it could be sooner depending on the Art or variant.
When you spend most of a decade getting to Black, your teachers, the people testing you, and your fellow students get to know you pretty well. It would be hard to get a Black Belt "taken away", you just did not promote them.
I do see the other side of the coin, especially now days when a Black Belt is seen as a degree to be earned educationally. I just do not really remember lots of incompetent Black Belts in the late 60's or 70's ... but my perspective was a lot different due to my rank and experience. Maybe they were there and I did not see them. Nowdays all I have to do is walk in a tournament or visit other schools and it is easy to scratch my head and say "Black Belt? Well, OK". It means what it means (see other posts on similar topics.)
Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com
OP
jeffkyle
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #9
There seems to be alot of focus when dealing with a "black belt". What about other ranks? A person with an orange belt worked as hard for that rank given the "time and expectations" as a black belt did. Should a lower rank be demoted for something like being away for a while, and a black belt not be demoted for the same thing? Are lower ranking people less insignificant than black belts?
I stated this in another thread. My brother-in-law is one that will revoke rank. He has stated so, not really sure if he actuall carried it out. But I do know that some do possess that mindset.
No matter what, the skill can not be taken away. And if a certificate is issued. He cannot come and take it away. He can revoke your "affilliation" with their organization at best.
But I've heard, from my brother-in-law, that the "Federation" would delete all records like you never were there.
A bit of dirty politics.
No matter what, the skill can not be taken away. And if a certificate is issued. He cannot come and take it away. He can revoke your "affilliation" with their organization at best.
But I've heard, from my brother-in-law, that the "Federation" would delete all records like you never were there.
A bit of dirty politics.
OP
GouRonin
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #11
Originally posted by jeffkyle
Are lower ranking people less insignificant than black belts?
Some black belts will tell you yes.
I will tell you that people should all be treated on the merits they have. A rank, belt, or certificate doesn't make someone less of an @sshole or a good person bad.
I'd say that rank is revokable. Ideally, it's only done with good reason. But, really, it can be done for any reason if the person in charge is petty.
But while rank is revokable, skill/knowledge/experience/ability isn't.
Mike
But while rank is revokable, skill/knowledge/experience/ability isn't.
Mike
OP
jeffkyle
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #13
I agree with you! But there again...some black belts won't agree with it.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Michael Billings: I see your point, but even if the organization doesn't recognise the rank, the student still earned it. They have the belt, and they have the certificate. Even if they put a disclaimer or expiration on the certificate, they still can't take away the fact that the person earned (or at least recieved) the rank. You can't change the past. I personally feel that the expiration date thing, or the "forfiet your rank" idea is just a marketing ploy more then anything else. I have people who I train with who might disagree, but I see the facts pointing more towards a marketing ploy.
But the fact remains, you can't change the past. If an organization or instructor trys to really press the issue, when they were the ones to promote the student in the first place, then I feel that org/instructor is the one risking a loss credability.
JeffKyle: I am one of those Black Belts who will say yes to making lower ranks revokable. My reasoning is because there needs to be a way (I feel) to impose displinary action if lower ranks abuse their rank, or abuse the art. By the time the student gets to black belt, the instructor should know enough about the student to determine that he/she has enough character to have a black belt, where this kind of disciplinary action (revoking rank) should not be an issue.
Understand, I mean no disrespect for lower ranks. It is just that an instructor, especially in a big school, can't screen every student enough to know if that student is going to abuse the art. If they do abuse it, that instructor should be able to impose this sort of disaplinary action. Now, if the instructor is the kind who would abuse this power, then don't train with him. It is just that simple.
To further support my position regarding lower ranks is the fact that lower ranks don't have the leverage of a black belt. Example: I have a green belt in Aikido, but I haven't done the art in about 9 years. Should I be able to walk into an Aikido school with my green belt and expect recognition at that rank? I don't think so. That green belt doesn't give me any leverage. Now if I had earned a blackbelt in Aikido, even if I hadn't trained in 9 years, that black belt gives me enough leverage to wear it on the floor, and to be recognized as such. I may not be recognized as a skilled AikidoKa by the other students, and it may be a very long time before a 2nd degree test, but I still have the black belt all the same. Besides, I should have enough knowledge from my training to be able to wear it, even if it is very rusty knowledge.
This is similar to a College degree (again), and the leverage that this implies. If I go into a job interview with no credentials, but I took a couple of classes in college, this won't give me much to stand on. Even if I "almost" got my degree, sorry.....no leverage. But if I can show a Diploma, then that's leverage, even if I haven't taken a class in 10 years.
Just some things to consider....................
:asian:
But the fact remains, you can't change the past. If an organization or instructor trys to really press the issue, when they were the ones to promote the student in the first place, then I feel that org/instructor is the one risking a loss credability.
JeffKyle: I am one of those Black Belts who will say yes to making lower ranks revokable. My reasoning is because there needs to be a way (I feel) to impose displinary action if lower ranks abuse their rank, or abuse the art. By the time the student gets to black belt, the instructor should know enough about the student to determine that he/she has enough character to have a black belt, where this kind of disciplinary action (revoking rank) should not be an issue.
Understand, I mean no disrespect for lower ranks. It is just that an instructor, especially in a big school, can't screen every student enough to know if that student is going to abuse the art. If they do abuse it, that instructor should be able to impose this sort of disaplinary action. Now, if the instructor is the kind who would abuse this power, then don't train with him. It is just that simple.
To further support my position regarding lower ranks is the fact that lower ranks don't have the leverage of a black belt. Example: I have a green belt in Aikido, but I haven't done the art in about 9 years. Should I be able to walk into an Aikido school with my green belt and expect recognition at that rank? I don't think so. That green belt doesn't give me any leverage. Now if I had earned a blackbelt in Aikido, even if I hadn't trained in 9 years, that black belt gives me enough leverage to wear it on the floor, and to be recognized as such. I may not be recognized as a skilled AikidoKa by the other students, and it may be a very long time before a 2nd degree test, but I still have the black belt all the same. Besides, I should have enough knowledge from my training to be able to wear it, even if it is very rusty knowledge.
This is similar to a College degree (again), and the leverage that this implies. If I go into a job interview with no credentials, but I took a couple of classes in college, this won't give me much to stand on. Even if I "almost" got my degree, sorry.....no leverage. But if I can show a Diploma, then that's leverage, even if I haven't taken a class in 10 years.
Just some things to consider....................
:asian:
Cruentus
Grandmaster
All though I do think Lower Ranks are revokable, I can agree with that!
OP
fist of fury
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #16
No I think the idea is stupid. You might no longer recognized with an official organization but so f***kin what. You still put in the time and have the knowledge.
OP
jeffkyle
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #17
I don't think your example applies to the situation I proposed. You seem to be talking about receiving a rank in one place and then going somewhere else. And that being the case, there is NO guarantee that ANY belt will carry over from one school to the next. It is almost like starting over, and you have to prove yourself. Just like if you didn't get a degree in college, but you had all the courses you needed for the job you were applying for. They may hire you for the job, but you would have to prove what you know to them. Also if you go to one college, and take a bunch of classes and then move to a different location another college may not accept the curriculum you have studied at the previous college. You may have to take lots of extra classes that you wouldn't have had to take at the other college, or you may even have to take certain classes over, even though you have been through them already, because the new college won't accept the curriculum from the previous college.
My point is about the same location. Take your college example for instance. You go to college, take several courses but don't receive a degree and then drop out. 10 years later you go back to college to finish up that degree. They don't make you start back over in the classes you have taken and make you start as a freshmen all over again because you have been gone. At the most you may have to take one or two courses over because they have changed so much. But they still allow you to keep your status as a junior. Usually they add classes to the curriculum so that you will have to take more classes in the future than you would have it you had continued and finished 10 years ago.
streetwise
Yellow Belt
Rank is just an arbitrary thing, meaningful only within a system/organization. It can be revoked, but so what? Your skills are your own, your personal development cannot be measured by a colored piece of cloth. I really dislike ranking systems in general, and if I ever start my own style and declare myself a 723rd degree grand ultimate master super warrior commander, or some such crap, I will eliminate all rank within my system except "certified instructor".
OP
jeffkyle
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #19
Sounds like a good idea to me!
OP
Mickey
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #20
Yes, with reasons,
For example if you have a really bad guy in your organization then the head person should be able to revoke the rank and remove the person from the system.
Now, can you revoke the knowledge? NOPE!
Does the person have to give back any certificates? NOPE!
So, you can revoke rank, yet does it really mean anything?
Only in that organization.
:asian:
For example if you have a really bad guy in your organization then the head person should be able to revoke the rank and remove the person from the system.
Now, can you revoke the knowledge? NOPE!
Does the person have to give back any certificates? NOPE!
So, you can revoke rank, yet does it really mean anything?
Only in that organization.
:asian:
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