Is Rank Revokable?

[chufeng]

Generally speaking, NO...

But, there are certain circumstances where the Organization/Association will no longer recognize someone's rank.
This kind of blends with another topic in this forum, but, the renegade who turns his/her back on the founder to go his/her own way...I've seen it happen too many times.

The individual wants to teach (nothing wrong with that) but doesn't want to do what's required to become certified as a teacher (problems are beginning to build)...then the individual adds stuff, removes stuff, changes certain techniques or stances...and the system is no longer the same...perhaps the person is only a 1st or 2nd level senior and hasn't really learned the whole system (this is OK if they aren't planning on teaching) but...now that person opens a school on his own and calls it the same thing...(Go-o-ong!!!)...this is where the person has crossed the line...

Can we take back the stuff that was taught? NO
Can we legally force someone to change the name of what they are doing? Only if a Trademark has been established (which can happen over time without actually filing for Trademark status).
Can the Association no longer recognize rank? Yes

In our Association, we (the teachers) must renew our license to teach annually...this allows Sifu to weed out those who have taken a different track...Our Association allows some modifications within the forms on an individual basis, but they are always taught according to the standard established by the Association...

So, I guess my real answer is, "It depends."

:asian:
chufeng

 

[muayThaiPerson]

The only reason to demote someone is if they came from a McDojo. Otherewise, you cant. Why? Because whatever you have been taught cant be taken away. Your rank is a representation of your skill, if u lower someones rank, their skills are still the same. Its like giving someone an academic F for being mean. Thats stupid

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
The only reason to demote someone is if they came from a McDojo. Otherewise, you cant. Why? Because whatever you have been taught cant be taken away. Your rank is a representation of your skill, if u lower someones rank, their skills are still the same. Its like giving someone an academic F for being mean. Thats stupid

I agree with your post somewhat, but if a person was at a McDojo should they be punished for this? I know some colleges wont take classes you have recieved for transfer credit but that is because it isnt even offered on their campus sometimes.

Having said that if you have an associates most will accept you into their BA/BS programs with 2 years credit. Bottom line is I think most colleges wont nail you for being at a lower class of university.

That being said though I believe it should be across the board. If you are going to demote, issue it across the board not just color belts. You are promoting another double standard if you arent willing to do the same for your black belts. To be honest they should be held to a higher standard because your students are watching their every move and taking notes. i think it goes along the line of enfocing being on time, respect, etc. You should be uniform, you can still have fun behind closed doors

 

[jeffkyle]

Lets take the Wright Brothers and the invention of the Airplane. They got that thing they created to fly, thus starting the process of improvement of their idea. As time has gone on bigger and better planes have been created based of what has been learned since.

A while back I remember hearing about people trying to recreate the plane that the Wright Brothers built, which would seem like a simple thing to do in this day and age. Well, apparently it wasn't as easy as it seems, because several engineers couldn't get the recreated Wright Brothers plane off of the ground. They were actually baffled at how those guys accomplished such a feat.

So does that mean that we shouldn't be allowed to continue with airplanes and flight as we know it today, because those guys couldn't recreate something as basic as the first airplane with all of the knowledge of aerodymanics and such that we have today?
Should we stop everything and go back to the beginning until we are able to get the original airplane to fly? I sure hope not....I am not riding on one of those things!

Just another example for my thought. :asian:

 

[Cruentus]

jeffkyle: :erg: The Wright Brothers!?!?! And you made fun of my examples!:rofl: I'm only kidding, it wasn't that bad.

I do think it's pretty funny how we all try to reach for metaphors, only to fall short on certian aspects because belt ranking in martial arts is a really unique thing in and of itself.

I am still interested in the "history" behind belt ranking.....where it came from, what culture started it, how it was done in different systems and cultures, and the methods, rules, and standards that were impossed, etc. I think a little insight on the history behind belt ranking can help us decide how we should do things today. SInce no one has propossed any ideas on this thread regarding the history behind the belt ranking system, I will start a new thread! So keep an eye out..................

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
The only reason to demote someone is if they came from a McDojo. Otherewise, you cant. Why? Because whatever you have been taught cant be taken away. Your rank is a representation of your skill, if u lower someones rank, their skills are still the same. Its like giving someone an academic F for being mean. Thats stupid

Rank isn't really a representation of skill, per se. It's an official recognition of achievement.

And that recognition can be revoked for pretty much any reason that the person/group who gave it decides. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. Sometimes it's revoked for good reasons (i.e.: the person is found to be dishonest or worse). Sometimes it's done for petty reasons (i.e.: a personal disagreement).

This is a poor analogy, but it's the best that's coming to my mind right now.

A father has a business. He names his eldest son as the heir to the family business (thus conferring a sort of "rank" on the son). Then the son proves to be a horrible manager, have no business sense, or the father is just petty after a disagreement. The father then decides to turn the business over to someone else (maybe another offspring, or maybe a trusted friend, or whatever). The father has thus revoked the "rank" he bestowed on his eldest son as heir to the family business. But, that doesn't mean that the son is no longer related to the father or that the son loses all knowledge of the family business. Just means that he's no longer recognized as the heir.

In an ideal world, rank would be an representation of skill. But this isn't an ideal world. If rank were really a representation of skill, then all the black belts (or equivalent) in the world would be competent martial artists and all the "10th Degree Grandmasters" would be incredible martial artists. As we all know, neither of these is true.

Mike

 

[SRyuFighter]

I feel that rank is revokable if you have a reason for doing so. For example if you take away someon's rank because they break the dojo's or style's code severely ( and I mean severely) then I agree. However if you Revoke a rank because you don't like Jimmy then I don't think so. I guess what I am saying is that if someone doesn't know the material once they get under your instruction then you could revoke their rank, or if they do something really bad. Otherwise I don't think one should revoke rank.

 

[DAC..florida]

I also agree that once youve earned your black belt its yours no matter what!

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by pesilat
Rank isn't really a representation of skill, per se. It's an official recognition of achievement.

And that recognition can be revoked for pretty much any reason that the person/group who gave it decides. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. Sometimes it's revoked for good reasons (i.e.: the person is found to be dishonest or worse). Sometimes it's done for petty reasons (i.e.: a personal disagreement).

This is a poor analogy, but it's the best that's coming to my mind right now.

A father has a business. He names his eldest son as the heir to the family business (thus conferring a sort of "rank" on the son). Then the son proves to be a horrible manager, have no business sense, or the father is just petty after a disagreement. The father then decides to turn the business over to someone else (maybe another offspring, or maybe a trusted friend, or whatever). The father has thus revoked the "rank" he bestowed on his eldest son as heir to the family business. But, that doesn't mean that the son is no longer related to the father or that the son loses all knowledge of the family business. Just means that he's no longer recognized as the heir.

In an ideal world, rank would be an representation of skill. But this isn't an ideal world. If rank were really a representation of skill, then all the black belts (or equivalent) in the world would be competent martial artists and all the "10th Degree Grandmasters" would be incredible martial artists. As we all know, neither of these is true.

Mike

So how about your original analogy about college? What if you get a degree in Math, but you end up working as a construction worker, or you forget all that you have learned, or you somehow even abuse the degree to rip people off? Does that mean the college comes back and takes away your degree? Just doin' a little stirrin'. :asian:

 

[Kirk]

If someone's b.b. is revoked, then what rank are they now?

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
So how about your original analogy about college? What if you get a degree in Math, but you end up working as a construction worker, or you forget all that you have learned, or you somehow even abuse the degree to rip people off? Does that mean the college comes back and takes away your degree? Just doin' a little stirrin'. :asian:

Well, that analogy kind of falls apart in some scenarios because, generally, a person with a college degree doesn't stay tied to the school. They go out and do their own thing and the school doesn't even know about it. In some professions, though, there are governmental things that can revoke "rank." Lawyers can be disbarred. Doctors can have their licence to practice revoked.

If the person does stay tied to the school (i.e.: becomes a teacher), then the school might still revoke the "rank" for various reasons. Even tenures can be revoked (though this usually involves a pretty hefty reason with a lot of paperwork and red tape to actually accomplish).

Also, the MA tend to be a bit more familial in structure than schools. So I think the family business analogy I used (while I'm still not sure I like its application here) has more bearing on this particular topic.

Mike

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Kirk
If someone's b.b. is revoked, then what rank are they now?

Depends on the person doing the revoking. They may be busted down to a lower rank. Or they may be completely stripped of rank and not recognized as a member of the school. I've seen both happen.

Mike

 

[KanoLives]

I agree that once a Black Belt is earned then it cannot be taken away however any rank below I think is at the instructor's or master's discretion.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Rank is nothing more than your position in the hierarchy of your style or system. It is the knowledge that is important.

Many style's rank certificate state that the rank is revokable if the person does something dishonorable. Just because someone has had their rank revoked regardless of what level it is does not mean the knowledge is gone as well.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

If you are in a large organization, RANK is everything. If you don't have the rank, then you are nobody, b/c you haven't paid your due yet. Once you have the rank, then you have earned the right to prove your ware.

If you are in "one-horse town" type of martial art school, where there are only a handful of you and no one else in the world give a rat *** about your art, then your rank is worthless.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If you are in a large organization, RANK is everything. If you don't have the rank, then you are nobody, b/c you haven't paid your due yet. Once you have the rank, then you have earned the right to prove your ware.

If you are in "one-horse town" type of martial art school, where there are only a handful of you and no one else in the world give a rat *** about your art, then your rank is worthless.

Or how about if you are out on the street in a confrontation with the average joe. Your rank doesn't mean anything either. I am sure that average joe doesn't care...he just wants to kick your butt all over the street.
:asian:

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

lol. That is true.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If you are in a large organization, RANK is everything. If you don't have the rank, then you are nobody, b/c you haven't paid your due yet. Once you have the rank, then you have earned the right to prove your ware.

A) Rank is only "everything" if you allow it to be

B) I can "prove my ware" anytime I'm working with someone. If they have a clue, they're going to realize that I have some skill/ability. If they want to get froggy, then I can "prove my ware" a little more painfully. Rank has nothing to do with the "right to prove my ware."

Mike

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kirk
If someone's b.b. is revoked, then what rank are they now?

Whatever rank, the head of their system decides to demote them to...

--Dave

:asian:

 

[CHUNNER]

In my opinion Dan rank should only be revokable if the holder is convicted of a crime of violence like Rape or Murder. In this case it would be appropriate to have them struck off and their grade revoked.

I do not think a period of inactivity or changing organisations is justification for reduction in grade.

I have actually seen this happen where a Shodan in wado ryu had to take two years off training because of a life threatening kidney disease. He re-started training under a different governing body and was reduced in rank to 1st kyu. I have always thought this was a disgrace.

I agree with what a previous poster said that the Dan is like a University degree, People work long and hard to obtain it and it means that at one point at least they have been achieved the high standards required to warrant that grade.