is it possible that theres still old school ninja clans

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by GHETTO NINJA, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    I'm going to address this one quickly (I hope!).

    The confusion over dates is actually not that uncommon, especially with people trying to change from the Japanese callendar to a Western one. There are also theories that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu was not the direct teacher for the most part, but possibly Takamatsu's uncle instead, and the two persons have had their dates overlap. The school was Toda Sr's, but Toda Jr may have done most of the teaching. As I said earlier, there have been claims of Toda Sensei's grave being found.

    As to using Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu (not a jujutsu system, really) to argue whether or not they are classed as a ninjutsu lineage anywhere other than the Bujinkan and related organisations, they don't claim them as being ninjutsu lineages. Part of the reason the Bujinkan changed the description of it's technical curriculum from Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu to Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu was to reflect the fact that ninjutsu was only a small aspect of what it taught in it's schools.

    As to why modern schools cannot be considered ninjutsu, the simple answer is that the required circumstances for a ninjutsu school to be founded no longer exist. Those circumstances include the fuedal caste system as applied in Japan (sorry Touch Of Death, not applicable to any other locale, including India), the particular geography of the region, the political situation (military dictatorships, a ruling military class, persecusion of non-conforming groups etc), and more. And those circumstances simply do not exist anymore.

    As to a verifiable koryu lineage, the simple fact is that two independant historians, Watatani and Yamada, put together a book (two editions have been created) called the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, in which they personally did their own research into the veracity of the claims of many koryu and other traditions throughout Japan, and the traditions held by Takamatsu and then Hatsumi are the only ones that passed muster. That is it. There is no other that is even close to that level of verification or legitimacy. And again, although Takamatsu's claims have been disputed, they have not been disproven.

    If you look at the various ryu contained within the Bujinkan and related organisations, each is completely consistant in it's individual approach, in other words, it has a complete and defined philosophy and method of movement, distinct and defined apart from the others. There is of course a certain amount of cross-over, given how inter-related some of the ryu themselves are, but this defining guiding philosophy is something that I have never seen in any "modern ninjutsu" system. The closest I have seen are in some karate based bogus schools, because their guiding philosophy is basically the karate origin, but then they have other aspects tacked on which contravene that basic approach. This is like adding nunchaku to a ninjutsu system. It goes against the basic philosophy of the system, and if you aren't getting that, then you aren't getting the way ninjutsu works, moves, or approached combat. And that simply means you have never trained ninjutsu.
     
  2. Draven

    Draven Green Belt

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    Chris, here is the problem.
    a) Takamatsu has no proof that Toda even existed and that kills the lineage of the 3 ninjutsu ryu-ha orgionally claimed as such by the Bujinkan.
    b) Yes, it is often quoted that Takamatsu's friend said he created the togakure ryu system from "childhood ninja games" what is often ignored is that the same Bugei Ryuha Daijiten refered to Toda as an "oral tradition." Meaning all we have is Takamatsu's word.
    c) Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu who was allegedly Takamtsu's grandfather, uncle, friend of the family etc (the story changes depending on who tells it) was also supposed to be a "bone-setter" in Kobe. Problem is there are no records of Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu, in Kobe which was a large city at the time. So there should be a record of a bone-setter or a dojo of some kind. There isn't...
    d) Takamatsu's Chinese experiences are likewise based on his say so & Hatsumi at first told Don Draeger he was "reconstructing ninjutsu." But, he did go to China we just have his word for what he did there.

    I can go into deeper detail but facts are there are holes and you can spin however you like but their just isn't any proof. Now take Omoto-Ryu I can trace it back to 3 people past, 2 in Japan & 1 in the US. As far as know its a "reconstructed system" or it could be purely fake. The difference is I'm trying to pass off my traditions as something its not; a proven varified koryu system.

    As for all this talk of guiding philosophy; what philosophy? You haven't give me a philosophy to guide byu just claimed none exist. Your arguement is the pot calling the kettle black; the x-kan lineage has just as many holes Ashida Kim's. No one has proven Ashida Kim did not learn ninjutsu, yet they haven't disproven them either... lol

    Takamatsu gets a free pass on unproven (disputed as imaginary) claims to fighting in death matchs in China but other can't..? Oh they have no proof so they must be lies even if they are unproven as lies. Basicly it comes down to this, the Bujinkan is seen as very influentual in the US, in Japan it gets laughed at. Here the lack of people who know better or lack have the means to research it; makes it perfect for the usual market politics.

    Even you dearly quoted, Bugei Ryuha Daijiten states that Takamatsu made it based on childrens games he played as a kid and the person who wrote it had known him since childhood, so he would have known what Takamatsu was doing or if he had an uncle Toda.
     
  3. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    You know, I thought we had moved past this. One more then?

     
  4. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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  5. Archangel M

    Archangel M Senior Master

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    Yes..somewhere in the mountains of Japan they are still fighting it out with the long hidden Samurai clans.
     
  6. Ken Morgan

    Ken Morgan Senior Master

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    Chris, my friend, you have much more patience then I.
    :)
     
  7. blink13

    blink13 Green Belt

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    I think most of them closed shop after Zartan killed off the Hard Master.
     
  8. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    I'm an oldskool ninja clan.

    Thats right... I am a WHOLE clan. All 47 of me.
     
  9. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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  10. blink13

    blink13 Green Belt

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    Wait, was that the one headed by Oscar Schindler, or Qui-Gon Jinn? I forget.
     
  11. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Actually in that Batman Episode IIRC Wayne and Kyodai Ken were students of a Budo master in Japan, Kyodai attempted to steal from the master and left disgraced and became a ninja.

    Its been some time since I saw it, but that strikes a bell.
     
  12. Kajowaraku

    Kajowaraku Green Belt

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    The part that always puzzles me most is how eager people are about having whatever they do being recognized as ninjutsu (or even ninjitsu if they're not particularily picky about spelling).

    I mean: what does it matter? I understand the fascination, but please, insisting you do something that belongs to an old tradition or is derived thereof but is in fact not based on actually lineage, but merely on "similarity of concept" is like claiming you're a Iroqui indian because you have interesting hair, ride on horseback without a saddle and have a knack for throwing hatchets (please don't fuss about whether or not iroqui threw hatchets or something, it's a metaphor, and no disrespect is intended at all).

    Why oh why does it make people happy to pretend to be ninja? It's just a loose collection of ryuha that share a heritage and tend to be a little less conventional. But you can get unconventional in tradional Jujutsu just the same.

    [rant]
    ah anyway. I wouldn't really care to much if it weren't for the bad reputation them ninjerfetishists often give the arts. That's the irony. Traditional ninjutsu keiko is repetitive and takes an awful lot of repeating the same basic techniques. It doesn't get flashy or wild until after a good amount of time has passed, and by that time most will have dropped out. Ninjerskool (tm) seems to offer a much quicker path to flashy moves and swirling nunchucks, much to the delight of friends, innocent bystanders and the easily impressed.
    [/rant]

    Right, felt good getting that of my chest.
     
  13. Tanaka

    Tanaka Purple Belt

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    To the discussion of Draven and Chris.

    I wanted to ask...
    What is Ashida kim using to reconstruct his "omote ryu"?
     
  14. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Reconstruct? I think you're being rather charitable....

    There is no fraudbusting on MT, otherwise it would be rather easy to post clips from Ashida and point out every little thing that totally removes any aspect of authenticity whatsoever from the mind of someone watching (who understands what they are looking at).

    But to put it simply, without getting too far into it, there is no basis whatsoever. There is nothing in anything he has ever shown that has any roots in Japanese martial traditions at all, and nothing that shows any actual basis in a true martial art. Just a note, this is not fraudbusting, as there could be things not shown, and what is put out there is an elaborate practical joke to hide his real system.... but I do doubt that.
     
  15. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Reconstructing a dead ryuha, as a non Japanese person with no other experience in related traditional JMA, without any details, is like trying to reconstruct the potatoes from a bowl of mash, or reconstructing a steak from a portion of mince.

    His fantasy.
    Even if he were to have the genuine scrolls, they are compeltely worthless without in-person instruction and the kuden (oral secrets).
    For example, if I were to have a scroll that lists the 9th kyu techniques for Genbukan ninpo, I would see that to evade a certain swordcut, I use hicho sabaki, which translates roughly to the concept of a 'bird taking off for flight'. Uh... ok. Had I not seen it, I'd never be able to guess what that means. Or how about 'Itami Jime' which is an 8th kyu technique that translates to 'painful lock' (sorry for the rough translation. There might be a more accurate one).

    Or how about a personal favorite of mine (not) 'oni kudaki' which can be translated in a couple of ways, but imo 'demonic destruction' is the most accurate one. Let's take the last one for example: suppose you find the omote ryu scroll and it mentions a technique named 'demonic destruction', how do you go about reconstructing it without any context to the name, without written details and without knowing when, where or how to apply it?

    It would be like reconstructing daito ryu from aikido, without even having aikido to start with.
     
  16. Tanaka

    Tanaka Purple Belt

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    I'm not sure what I can say on this topic due to the rules.

    So I will just say that I am aware of Ashida Kim.
    I just saw he said that he was reconstructing Omote Ryu.
     
  17. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Folks,

    The rules on fraudbusting are pretty simple. You can state facts. You can questions someone's credentials. But when you start hounding them around the forum, or demanding they justify themselves or prove their credentials -- that's when there's a problem. To help you out, here are the rules:

    If you have any questions, you can always PM any senior moderator, super moderator, admin, or higher member of the staff.

    I hope nobody feels like they're being chastised here. Instead, I hope that this gives you some guidance and lets you feel free to post what you'd like to.123
     

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