Ninjas still around today?

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
In response to Shadow Hunter's first post, I would like to mention that the Sulsa (if they ever existed or do still exist) have no more parallels to the Japanese Ninja than the Navy SEALS or Green Berets do. And, we pointed out in earlier posts that what few parallels these Special Forces have to the Ninja are of a rather superficial nature. The essence of the Ninja culture was not guerilla tactics and sneaky assassinations.

Pray tell, what was the essence of ninja culture, sitting around in the commune singing hymns? Sad.

Originally posted by heretic888
I would also strongly doubt (but not flat-out disbelieve) the rather conspiratorial rantings of the Sulsa still operating in Korea. Not without any reliable sources that is.

The exist, whether you want to believe it or not. And there are people who say that what Hatsumi teaches has no link to the ancient ninja either.

Originally posted by heretic888
There is no credible historical connection between the Ninja and the Sulsa, either.

Excuse me, but have you bothered to research just how much of what we call Japanese culture comes orignally from Korea?

Originally posted by heretic888
Very little.

So you don't feel that the Sulsa count as modern day ninja? Strange in that they seem to resemble the description of ninja in the Bansenshukai.

Originally posted by heretic888
Famous?? Last time I checked, that little tidbit of history happened ONCE and there was no actual credible connections to that event to the Ninja cultures of Iga and Koga any more than some other assassination group or mercenary.

I menioned one instance, I can give others. How about Tokugawa Ieyasu's use of his ninja from Iga and Koga to kidnap relatives of his vassels in order to keep them in line? You wnat more examples? No, you just seem to want to live in your fantasy of the ninja as a middle ages hippy.

Originally posted by heretic888
You apparently mistakenly assume the Ninja families were part of mainstream conventional Japanese culture. They were geographically cut off from the rest of the country and developed their own, semi-independent culture.

And you seem to think that they were totally cut off from the rest of the planet, while still travelling all over the country, dealing with the rest of Japan in trade and using the same language.

Originally posted by heretic888
I would say the Ninja were as ruthless as they had to be to ensure their survival.

Good! It was a ruthless time and the ninja were no more ruthless than anyone else in their position. No more and no less!!!

Originally posted by heretic888
Therein lies your problem, Shadow Hunter. You are relying on popular literature, drama, and gossip of the Tokugawa and Meiji Eras as valid historical information. There is actually very little mention of the Ninja in the historical record. Sources such as the Bansenshukai and Hatsumi-soke's scrolls are your best bet.

And therein lies your problem in only taking the word of your teacher. I am not just going off of popular literature and gossip. I am going off of the bansenshukai and other historical works. Have you read the entire bansenshukai? How much research have you done on your own that required more effort than a click of the mouse?

Originally posted by heretic888
There is not one valid historical source to validate this theory.

Oh come on!!! The links between Korea and Japan are well known! The Japanese looked to the Koreans for most of their technical skill. In the early Heian period fully one third of the nobility in the capital were less than three generations removed from Korea.

Originally posted by heretic888
In any event, I have seen this so-called "Korean ninjutsu" myself. It does not resemble Ninja no Taijutsu at all. It looks like some souped up form of Tae Kwon Do. No flow at all.

The stuff you saw was probably not true sulsa do. There have been fakes in all arts.

Originally posted by heretic888
I fail to see why, considering you have yet to present one credible source for any of your claims.

I have given several like the Bansenshukai, Andrew Adams, common history you can find in books like Stephan Turnbull's and such. You keep whining, "but Hatsumi says.." and covering your ears when some fact you don't like is presented.

Originally posted by heretic888
I hate to break this to you, but Mr. Adams is hardly a historical authority on Ninja or Ninjutsu. His lack of primary (or even secondary) sources is laughable. I personally found his book quite enertaining.

But his title with its use of the term "Assassin" is indicitive of the reputation they have in Japan and in history. And again, trying to attack any source that does not fit your narrow view of what the ninja should be is not very honorable.

Originally posted by heretic888
"Corrupt" them??

Yes, killing people, lying to them to get information, kidnapping children and the like can be very corrupting for the soul unless you kept your eyes on the larger picture.

Originally posted by heretic888
Sources, please.

You first. And no more "Sensei says".

Originally posted by heretic888
Well, Shadow Hunter, you have yet to recall a single valid primary or secondary historical source. Perhaps you should take your own advice??

Again, I have given sources, you just seem to want to stick your head in the ground and not accpet them. Do a little research my friend.

Originally posted by heretic888
I do, and I would claim that book to be a source of your own ignorance on the subject. I can't believe you actually think it is historically valid. Most of Adams' sources come from fictional literature. And, the few times he does use actual historical sources, they are always biased and unsupported by any other sources (example: he has an old manuscript showing a bunch of samurai dressed in black and calls them "ninja" without any justifications for this claim outside of superficial parallels).

Right.... And some of the biased sources he uses come from Hatsumi.

Originally posted by heretic888
Such as??

Such as the Bansenshukai. Have you read anything not on your teacher's approved reading list?

Here is an interesting exercise. How about soem of the people who spend so much time attacking me go out and find out who Ishikawa Goemon was, his link to the Koto ryu, what he was executed for and what role in the 20th century did both Takamatsu sensei and Hatsumi sensei have in validating what I say?

I do not want trouble with people and am very forgiving. Once you realize the error of your ways, I will be willing to move on and accept your apologies for all the vicious attacks you have leveled against me.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
...

Excuse me, but have you bothered to research just how much of what we call Japanese culture comes orignally from Korea? ...

Oh come on!!! The links between Korea and Japan are well known! The Japanese looked to the Koreans for most of their technical skill. In the early Heian period fully one third of the nobility in the capital were less than three generations removed from Korea.

Interesting theory.

Of course, MOST of Japanese martial arts were "Jap-ified" versions of Kung Fu, passed up through Okinowa. If you speak Japanese, the very existence of "Shorin-ryu" says it all.

This makes for another theory, and that is that Korean arts are a COMBINATION of the Chinese arts they decended from with a Japanese influence. Not the "Jap-ified" Kung Fu, but a true hybrid.

As for Ninjitsu, it's origins are most likely from two backwoods Chinese arts, one of which I can recall the name -- Lin Quei. But it is a Japanese art, just as Zen is Japanese, even though it is almost wholly based in Ch'an, and has it's unique Japanese identity and achievements thereof.

So did the Japanese really get their culture from Korea in any significant way? From the Tea Ceremony and Buddhism, to language and martial arts, I think the theory holds no sake.

But then that's a whole other thread ...

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
Interesting theory.

Of course, MOST of Japanese martial arts were "Jap-ified" versions of Kung Fu, passed up through Okinowa. If you speak Japanese, the very existence of "Shorin-ryu" says it all.

If you are talking about karate, your theory holds true. But there is almost no connection between karate and the koryu of mainland Japan.

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
As for Ninjitsu, it's origins are most likely from two backwoods Chinese arts, one of which I can recall the name -- Lin Quei. But it is a Japanese art, just as Zen is Japanese, even though it is almost wholly based in Ch'an, and has it's unique Japanese identity and achievements thereof..

I doubt it. Just look at a map and you will see just how close the influence had to be between Korea and Japan. Many ideas started in China, got refined in Korea and then passed on to the Japanese. This goes for the introduction of Buddhism to pottery to art.

There was a lot of Koreans who moved to Japan, where their skills made them part of a new elite. Engineers, priests, doctors and artists just to name a few areas where they distinguished themselves. Tons of Koreans came to Japan and imparted their skills. The number of Chinese who were willing to move to what they considered a backward, barbaric nation just pales by comparisson. The biggest impact China made on Japan was in the form of whatever could be written down and transported by book. Thus you got more sutras from China, and more Buddhist priests from Korea.

And in terms of fighting skills, the Japanese learned more from Korean immigrants than books from China.

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
So did the Japanese really get their culture from Korea in any significant way? From the Tea Ceremony and Buddhism, to language and martial arts, I think the theory holds no sake.

But then that's a whole other thread ...

Are you kidding??? The tea ceremony and Buddhism are perfect examples of how the Japanese got their culture from Korea. Do you know what the most popular sort of prisoner was when Japan invaded Korea in the 16th century was- artisans who could make Korean style bowls for the tea ceremony! And as I said, the first introduction to Japan of Buddhism was from the King of Silla in Korea. Yes the Japanese went to China to study Budddhism along with Korea, but they also went all the way to India for the same thing!

Korea had a great impact on Japan, especially in any type of physical skill that had to be taught from teacher to student. Okinawa benifited from China. The two are totally different.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
... Many ideas started in China, got refined in Korea and then passed on to the Japanese. This goes for the introduction of Buddhism to pottery to art.
...

Thus you got more sutras from China, and more Buddhist priests from Korea.

And in terms of fighting skills, the Japanese learned more from Korean immigrants than books from China.

... The tea ceremony and Buddhism are perfect examples of how the Japanese got their culture from Korea.

Again, that is all just theory based on a map and an idea.

Can you show me the lineages of the Tea Masters, Zen Masters, and even trace back the lineages of almost all the martial arts teachers? I don't recall any of them being Korean, as possible as it might have been. But all of them trace back to SPECIFIC PEOPLE in China. Not just general ideas, but the actual masters of tea, hands, calligraphy, you name it.

Not bashing Korea -- they have a wonderful culture -- and as for Japan, it WAS backwards during most of recorded history. And even so, the fact is that missionaries and masters DID come from China. Not just the idea of them coming, but endless specific people with names and dates in all fields of study, from medicine to gardening.

The fact that Korea and Japan both had the same circumstance with China, but in their own way, and their geographic placement between the two, IMO is misleading. China was the central culture in terms of advancement in arts and sciences, and this can not be ignored, regardless of the many contributions of the much smaller adjacent cultures of Japan and Korea. Korea was a stepping stone to Japan and vice-versa, not a depot.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Korea had a great impact on Japan, especially in any type of physical skill that had to be taught from teacher to student. Okinawa benifited from China. The two are totally different.

My understanding was that msot of the karate systems known today (if not all) came from a direct infusion of Okinowan (and Chinese) masters. Is this not so?

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
My understanding was that msot of the karate systems known today (if not all) came from a direct infusion of Okinowan (and Chinese) masters. Is this not so?

Yes,
But I am talking about Japanese systems, not Okinawan ones. The Japanese invaded Okinawa in the early 17th century. before that, there was little other than occasional trade contacts between them. The height of the ninja period was a hundred years before this.

Karate really did not become a Japanese martial art and have much influence on them until after Perry's arrival forced the modernization of Japan.

So if you are talking karate, you see a link from China to Okinawa to Japan. If you are talking about kenjutsu, ninjutsu, or any samurai type of art you are looking at a different pathway, more likely influenced by Korea than China or Okinawa.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Yes,
But I am talking about Japanese systems, not Okinawan ones. The Japanese invaded Okinawa in the early 17th century. before that, there was little other than occasional trade contacts between them. The height of the ninja period was a hundred years before this.

Karate really did not become a Japanese martial art and have much influence on them until after Perry's arrival forced the modernization of Japan.

So if you are talking karate, you see a link from China to Okinawa to Japan. If you are talking about kenjutsu, ninjutsu, or any samurai type of art you are looking at a different pathway, more likely influenced by Korea than China or Okinawa.

You are obviously knowledgable about this -- thank you for your insight. :asian:

I always did suspect the roots of kendo and ninjitsu were very different from all the others. I always assumed kenjutsu was almost aboriginal in it's roots, influenced later by other cultures. Aren't there also backwater martial arts from Hokkaido that still exist that are almost independent of other cultural influences?

 

[Silent Nightfall]

Shadow Hunter... I think you are gravely mistaken about a great many things. I foresee this thread on ninjutsu history becoming long and drawn out with input from various sources, however, no matter what the outcome of this debate, you have made a few errors that cannot be refuted. First of all, you are assuming that we are attacking you when we respond to your comments. This could not be farther from the truth. I see this as a debate and nothing more. Therefore, no matter who is right in the end, if we ever see an end to this, you shall receive no apology on my part because I never attacked you in my writing. I merely chose to disagree. Your own words, however, are much closer to a written assault. Which brings me to your second mistake. You assume that we have romantic notions about the art that we study and its predecessors and that we would do anything to keep these so-called "illusions" in tact. Once again, wrong answer. I could care less about what people did with the art hundreds of years ago. What I truly care about is whether or not it works and is effective for me. Enough said... I only choose to debate this topic with you because I, like many others, do not like to see false information passed on to those seeking the honest truth because they may have a great interest in history and culture. Having them mislead would not be proper. Thus, this debate will go on and on. I merely hope that you will cease to assume that I am being cold and cutting with my words and that I am trying to protect my "fantasy ideals" about this art. When it is all said and done, it won't matter if ninja were ruthless assassins or not centuries ago when I'm being attacked on the street by someone looking for money, now will it? So why would you think the history of the ninja would have me so worked up in the first place? Better think about that.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Josh,
If you look at what some people have been writting, it is pretty obvious that at least some of them have been on the attack.

The ninja were ruthless. It was a ruthless time. It is kind of like looking at the new goverments being set up in Afghansitan and Iraq. Trying to find saints among the potential candidates is a fool's task. Any innocents would have been tortured to death in the previous enviroments and the survivors were the ones who were willing to do what they needed to in order to survive and thrive.

And if you look at what the ninja was, then the best equivelents would be the sulsa working for the South Korean goverment and the North Korean Special Intelligence Forces living and gathering information in the South.

 

[arnisador]

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/0/058375-7050-014.html

An Indianapolis police officer is a Tokagure-ryu instructor.

 

[TallAdam85]

this has got the most replys to anything i have ever put on the site

 

[heretic888]

Shadow Hunter,

What you need to understand is that, for the most part, I agree with most of your conclusions. Korean culture did have a major influence and impact on Japanese culture. Even in the martial arts.

However, just because Korea on the whole had an influence on Japan on the whole does not necessarily mean that the Sulsa had any influence on the Ninja. There still seems to be no direct or concrete connection between the two outside of speculations, in my opinion.

On a side note, however, it should be noted that, according to Hatsumi-soke's records, the "Chinese" refugee Ikai (Ibou), sometimes identified with Chan Busho (Cho Busho), was said to come from from Korai (present day Korea), leaving that area around the fall of the T'ang Dynasty (around 900 to 950 CE, I believe). Ikai seems to be the "origin" of many of the Bujinkan ryuha according to the lineages (Gyokko-ryu, Togakure-ryu, Hakuun-ryu, Kukishinden-ryu, and Shinden Fudo-ryu all trace back to him).

It should be remembered, however, that the Ninja are quite an ancient culture. Even the "established" Ninja ryuha date back to almost a thousand years. Who knows how long the Ninja were running around doing their thing before they began establishing semi-independent schools (according to Takamatsu-soke, the Ninja may be as old as the Japanese Imperial family itself)??

I am not sure how old the Sulsa are, or how they could have influenced the Ninja. But, as of now, there doesn't seem to be any concrete connection between the two outside of generic speculation.

I don't think the Ninja/Sulsa parallels are all that complete, however. The Sulsa, as you describe them, seem to be little more than tools of their government. The Ninja families were probably seen as something like vigilantes and were semi-independent from the various Shogunates.

As for the ruthlessness.... I would say the Ninja were only as ruthless as they had to be to ensure their families' survival and what they perceived to be best for the country and people. Many of the Ninpo scrolls and documents seem to indicate the Ninja had an aversion toward killing their opponents and were supposed to use only as much force as needed to stop the adversary (such as in Gyokko-ryu's Ninja no Kissoku).

Laterz.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
I don't think the Ninja/Sulsa parallels are all that complete, however. The Sulsa, as you describe them, seem to be little more than tools of their government. The Ninja families were probably seen as something like vigilantes and were semi-independent from the various Shogunates.

You really do not know much about the subject, do you?

The ninja were the lap dogs of the shogunate. They were not the Robin Hood types you want them to be. That is just hard historical fact backed up by their many actions on behaff of the shogunate. Who do you think sent one fo them onto Commodore Perry's ship? Or sent them to help kill off the Christians in the Shimabara uprising?

And do me a favor, if you are not willing to take my word on things, then don't ask us to take Masaaki Hatsumi's or Toshitugu Takamatsu's word on what the ninja were unless you are also willing to back up what you say with similar proof. Haven't you ever heard of the article at Koryu.com? If there is a question about Hatsumi sensei's link to the historical ninja, then we should not be taking his word on the matter as a matter of blind faith.

 

[heretic888]

You really do not know much about the subject, do you?

I would appreciate it if you'd cut back on the insults, oh omniscient one. :shrug:

The ninja were the lap dogs of the shogunate. They were not the Robin Hood types you want them to be. That is just hard historical fact backed up by their many actions on behaff of the shogunate. Who do you think sent one fo them onto Commodore Perry's ship? Or sent them to help kill off the Christians in the Shimabara uprising?

*snicker snicker* Apparently, you seem to forget that the ninja also battled the Tokugawa's Shinsengumi during the Meiji Revolution, neh?? :shrug:

The Iga no Mono and Koga no Mono were no one's "lap dogs". Yes, they were loyal to the Tokugawas at one point. When they felt that it was time to move on, then they moved on. The ninja families most certainly didn't pledge an "undying" allegiance to the shogunate. They were only as loyal as it suited their particular needs.

Like I said before, the Shinobi were most likely viewed as something of anarchists or vigilantes by the mainstream society as they neglected to pledge an "undying" or "eternal" allegiance to anyone but their own families. I'm not actually saying they were "Robin Hood types", but they were most likely seen as something of a wild card to most daimyo.

And do me a favor, if you are not willing to take my word on things, then don't ask us to take Masaaki Hatsumi's or Toshitugu Takamatsu's word on what the ninja were unless you are also willing to back up what you say with similar proof. Haven't you ever heard of the article at Koryu.com? If there is a question about Hatsumi sensei's link to the historical ninja, then we should not be taking his word on the matter as a matter of blind faith.

I am aware of it. And, it has been largely disproven.

Research has been done to indicate there was a "Daisuke Nishina" under Kiso Yoshinaka's ranks as claimed by Takamatsu Toshitsugu in his story of the Togakure-ryu. The source is so remote and so archaic, however, that it is highly unlikely Takamatsu used that book as a source.

In additon, Mr. Ben Cole has offered to act as a go-between Hatsumi and the supposed detractors, so that they can see the densho and makimono themselves. And, guess what?? Suprise, suprise... the detractors refused the offer. Apparently, they don't want to see Hatsumi's evidence on the subject. What does that tell you??

Its easy to debase something you don't understand. Ignorance is a wonderfully nondiscriminating tool.

Besides, Hatsumi-soke's legitimacy to Kukishinden-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu, Gikan-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-ryu are admitted by virtually all parties involved. It seems incongruous that either Takamatsu or Hatsumi would just "make up" some ninjutsu schools.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by heretic888
*snicker snicker* Apparently, you seem to forget that the ninja also battled the Tokugawa's Shinsengumi during the Meiji Revolution, neh?? :shrug:

According to who? Oh yeah, "Sensei sez" and it must be true. That particular little aspect is not recorded in any other aspect of history other than what Hatsumi writes.

Originally posted by heretic888
The Iga no Mono and Koga no Mono were no one's "lap dogs". Yes, they were loyal to the Tokugawas at one point. When they felt that it was time to move on, then they moved on. The ninja families most certainly didn't pledge an "undying" allegiance to the shogunate. They were only as loyal as it suited their particular needs.

Show me, with sources outside of "Sensei Sez" that backs up your little fantasy.

Originally posted by heretic888
I am aware of it. And, it has been largely disproven.

No it has not. But I understand why you would just want to dismiss it and try to push it under the carpet. The fact remains that it remains on the Koryu.com site and Hatsumi sensei is still not a member of any koryu orginization.

Originally posted by heretic888
Its easy to debase something you don't understand. Ignorance is a wonderfully nondiscriminating tool.

Thank you for the insult. You show the world the high standards the Bujinkan is famous for. And so far, I am the one who has been siting facts and sources while you are the one who has been trying to debase sources you are not capable of debating. You honestly think you know more than the people who wrote that essay who hav elived and trained in Japan for years?

Originally posted by heretic888
Besides, Hatsumi-soke's legitimacy to Kukishinden-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu, Gikan-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-ryu are admitted by virtually all parties involved. It seems incongruous that either Takamatsu or Hatsumi would just "make up" some ninjutsu schools.

Nope, they have not. First of all, it is admitted that Takamatsu studied Kukishin ryu and Takagi- ryu, but there is no facts outside of his word that he was every any kind of soke of the art. Let alone the soke of the dozen or so varients of the art he passed out to several people. Shinden Fudo ryu and Gikan ryu are not mentioned in any source prior to Takamatsu and no documents seem to exist in Hatsumi sensei's possesion to confirm that they did.

Right now there are people in Japan who have provided documents proving that they are the legitimate succesors to the Takagi and Kukishin ryu. These are arts that Takamatsu sensei claimed to be the succesor to, but never has any documents been presented to back up that claim.

That doesn't look good, now does it. And until some sort of proof can be provided and the clouds hang over Hatsumi, then "Sensei sez" is not something I am willing to accept like the robots of the Bujinkan.

 

[Jay Bell]

According to who? Oh yeah, "Sensei sez" and it must be true. That particular little aspect is not recorded in any other aspect of history other than what Hatsumi writes.

At no point did I ever take Sensei's history lessons with more then a grain of salt. Ironically...I found him to be correct with my findings the majority of the time. Stop acting like everyone in the Bujinkan are sheep due to the fact that you have an axe to grind.

No it has not. But I understand why you would just want to dismiss it and try to push it under the carpet. The fact remains that it remains on the Koryu.com site and Hatsumi sensei is still not a member of any koryu orginization.

Untrue...Hatsumi sensei is part of a Kenjutsu koryu organization...the name escapes me right now, but I'll find it for you. His documentation was enough evidence to be accepted by them. The Koryu.com article is a word-of-mouth information relay amoung friends that dispute Hatsumi sensei's claims.

And so far, I am the one who has been siting facts and sources while you are the one who has been trying to debase sources you are not capable of debating.

I haven't seen any evidence of facts and sources from you....save for the people that have problems with the Bujinkan.

Nope, they have not. First of all, it is admitted that Takamatsu studied Kukishin ryu and Takagi- ryu, but there is no facts outside of his word that he was every any kind of soke of the art. Let alone the soke of the dozen or so varients of the art he passed out to several people. Shinden Fudo ryu and Gikan ryu are not mentioned in any source prior to Takamatsu and no documents seem to exist in Hatsumi sensei's possesion to confirm that they did.

Sorry, this is quite wrong. If you look at the kazuu of the Kukishin Tenshin Hyoho, Takamatsu sensei is listed in the Shihanke line. Hatsumi sensei's densho/maki were signed and stamped by the Kuki head, making him Soke of Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu....oh....right....he must have used his ninja stealth mode and stole the stamp... Anyway, Hatsumi sensei shows this fairly openly.

Right now there are people in Japan who have provided documents proving that they are the legitimate succesors to the Takagi and Kukishin ryu. These are arts that Takamatsu sensei claimed to be the succesor to, but never has any documents been presented to back up that claim.

*sigh* Please do some research on the matter before making claims like this. There are 7 lines of the Kuki family arts. There are at least 4 that I know of of the Takagi lines.

Mizuta sensei and Ishitani sensei were the shihanke and heads that passed on to Takamatsu sensei his lineages of Takagi ryu.

Tanemura sensei is head of three Kuki lines...one being Hontai Kukishin ryu Bojutsu. He got this outside of Hatsumi sensei....from Kimura sensei. He also received Takagi Yoshin ryu Jujutsu from Kimura sensei.

Hatsumi sensei heads the Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu as well as Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu.

In plain English: They are not the same arts as the schools that Takamatsu sensei headed. Takamatsu sensei was Shihanke (Menkyo Kaiden) in Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, not Soke. He received Kaiden from Ishitani Matsutarou Tadaaki. This is well documented...as well as backed by the Kuki family documents. As was his heading of other Kuki lines.

The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten has plenty of information you seem to be lacking. Pick up a copy, though pricey, will list the kazuu of things you continue to miss.

As for Shinden Fudo ryu. You are looking for outside Takamatsu-den resources? Ueno Takashi.

Gikan ryu? Akimoto Fumio sensei. Who, as a side note, was also Soke of Shoken ryu Dakentaijutsu as well as Gikan ryu. I'm sure you'd recognize one of this students...Mifune sensei of the Kodokan.

All documented in plain....well...Japanese? Much translated for your viewing pleasure.

Go further then a koryu.com article and Buj-bashing websites. You've chewed on people for not doing research....and what have you done? Enough of the "Koryu.com sez" nonsense.

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Jay Bell


All documented in plain....well...Japanese? Much translated for your viewing pleasure.

Jay,

Not to change the subject (if thats indeed what this is doing) but you seem to have SO MUCH information on this, and I am VERY interested in the history and lineage of these arts, but i don't read Japanese...

Can you make some reccomendations for reading material with good factual information that a plain, english speaking guy like me can make sense of?

Thanks a Bunch!

 

[Jay Bell]

Buyu Books

Awesome place to get historical and manual texts on everything budo

 

[Scooter]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Buyu Books

Awesome place to get historical and manual texts on everything budo

I second that! Great stuff at a fair price!

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
At no point did I ever take Sensei's history lessons with more then a grain of salt. Ironically...I found him to be correct with my findings the majority of the time. Stop acting like everyone in the Bujinkan are sheep due to the fact that you have an axe to grind.

First of all, I never accused you personally of doing the "sensei sez" bit. That has been done by a few other people. And if I seem to be getting mad, it may be because I state facts and am attacked for it by members of the Bujinkan and other members will not comment on their fellow student's bad behavior.

But I must admit, the way that no one will take another Bujinkan member to task for their lack of knowledge or manners does make it sound like you all are sheep. I wish someone would do the right thing even if they do not like the facts I am pointing out.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Untrue...Hatsumi sensei is part of a Kenjutsu koryu organization...the name escapes me right now, but I'll find it for you. His documentation was enough evidence to be accepted by them. The Koryu.com article is a word-of-mouth information relay amoung friends that dispute Hatsumi sensei's claims.

I have heard that the kenjutsu orginization is not very highly regarded. The fact remains that he is not a member of the two most highly regarded orginizations in Japan that actually check the claims of its applicants.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
I haven't seen any evidence of facts and sources from you....save for the people that have problems with the Bujinkan. .

Excuse me, did I not just mention the fact that Hatsumi was not a member of the two orginizations that actually check their members claims? He tried to join (source- Donn Draeger who was a member) but was refused based on his lack of proof for Takamatsu's claims.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Sorry, this is quite wrong. If you look at the kazuu of the Kukishin Tenshin Hyoho, Takamatsu sensei is listed in the Shihanke line. Hatsumi sensei's densho/maki were signed and stamped by the Kuki head, making him Soke of Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu....oh....right....he must have used his ninja stealth mode and stole the stamp... Anyway, Hatsumi sensei shows this fairly openly.

Shihanke is not the same as being soke. A shihanke is a seniro instructor, not a head of an art. He had trained in the Kukishin ryu, but he was not the head of the art at any point.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
*sigh* Please do some research on the matter before making claims like this. There are 7 lines of the Kuki family arts. There are at least 4 that I know of of the Takagi lines.

Mizuta sensei and Ishitani sensei were the shihanke and heads that passed on to Takamatsu sensei his lineages of Takagi ryu.

And a important point to point out is that all of these arts that trace themselves back to Takamatsu go no further than him. That is why I used the term "Takamatsu-den" instead of "Bujinkan." It is a FACT that not one of the people who currently claim soke status in an art from Takamatsu are recognized by the orginizations I mentioned. They all go back to Takamatsu and end.

The Hontai Takagi ryu is currently a member, as well as the Kukishin ryu. They both have documents backing up the claims that they are the true inheritors of that tradition. The Takamatsu- den has none.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Tanemura sensei is head of three Kuki lines...one being Hontai Kukishin ryu Bojutsu. He got this outside of Hatsumi sensei....from Kimura sensei. He also received Takagi Yoshin ryu Jujutsu from Kimura sensei.

Again- TAKAMATSU-DEN!!!! We all know Hatsumi sensei trained with Takamatsu Toshitsugu, the problem is that there is no proof to Takamatsu's claims of being a SOKE of any art, let alone the Togakure ryu. Toda sensei died years before Takamatsu was born!!!! That is just fact! Do you want to show me anything that disputes the fact that the guy who supposably taught Takamatsu ninjutsu died before he was born??????

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Hatsumi sensei heads the Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu as well as Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu.

In plain English: They are not the same arts as the schools that Takamatsu sensei headed. Takamatsu sensei was Shihanke (Menkyo Kaiden) in Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, not Soke. He received Kaiden from Ishitani Matsutarou Tadaaki. This is well documented...as well as backed by the Kuki family documents. As was his heading of other Kuki lines.

Thank you for pointing out that Takamatsu was a senior instructor but never had the authority to name successors. Only the Soke has the right to do that. If Takamatsu was a shihanke, then he could not have made Hatsumi the soke.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten has plenty of information you seem to be lacking. Pick up a copy, though pricey, will list the kazuu of things you continue to miss.

Seen it, and there are some things in it you do not want to talk about.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
As for Shinden Fudo ryu. You are looking for outside Takamatsu-den resources? Ueno Takashi.

Who was a student of who??? It is interesting to see that Kaminaga, Ueno's succesor, teaches an art called Shinden Fudo ryu that has NOTHING to do with Takamatsu and that there seems to be no reference to the Shinden Fudo ryu in the Takamatsu den until AFTER the meeting between Ueno and Takamatsu.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Gikan ryu? Akimoto Fumio sensei. Who, as a side note, was also Soke of Shoken ryu Dakentaijutsu as well as Gikan ryu. I'm sure you'd recognize one of this students...Mifune sensei of the Kodokan.

Again TAKAMATSU-DEN!!! Akimoto was a student of Takamatsu and learned it from him. There is no proof prior to Takamatsu that the art existed.

Come on Jay- I expect better of you. Stop being so nasty and twisting the facts. When I say Takamatsu- den I mean anything that came from Takamatsu. Turning around and saying that there are other students of Takamatsu that will back up Hatsumi's claims is beneath you. I know Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu. The thing is, the ninja claims he makes are based on Takamatsu and the trail go cold there.