Is It All In Decline?

[Kwanjang]

If the public actually got to watch the old-style tournements, such as the ones Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, and Benny Urquidez used to compete in, I think they, the general public, the average guy off the street would actually get behind that just as much UFC, the company, as well as any other MMA organization that's out there and popular, as well as MMA styled tournements, no matter what the ruleset.

I agree-a nice thought!

 

[BrandonLucas]

In addition, I would like to add that if people are actually wanting to see REAL fights, with no rules, I would suggest looking this up on youtube.

That is what the UFC started out as...UFC the company, that is....back when the Gracies ran the show. The reason that UFC the company is so popular now is because it changed the format to include rules to protect the fighters, and made it more interesting. Even though it started out as a PPV event and did not make it to cable or primetime television, it still had a period when the general public did not have as much interest.

When UFC, the company, actually started to air on SpikeTV on cable, the popularity soared, and MMA styled events, thanks to UFC the company, became popular as well.

I don't think watching real fights is very entertaining. I think things need rules to be engaging, and there needs to be a margin of safety. In my humble opinion, this is why the original airings of the UFC programs (run by the Gracies, starting in 1993, on PPV...not MMA in general) did not catch on with the general public.

 

[Tez3]

UFC is only synonymous with MMA in the States I'm afraid, the rest of the world has it's own identifiers. The UFC isn't hugely popular here although it has had a couple of shows here, it's over hyped, they charge too much and don't have that good a quality of fighters on the shows. Here, of the foreign shows, Pride was always far more popular. We value our own home grown promotions as do other countries. Germany has some big shows as does Poland. Russsia of course has some very big shows.
On Saturday I'm going to the M1 show which is a huge promotion with shows in Europe, Russia and Asia. The Russian Red Devils team is competing.
http://www.cagewarriors.com/article.158.htm
In the States if UFC declines I believe Elite have a good chance of taking their place? if theres a vacancy someone will fill it.

 

[BrandonLucas]

UFC is only synonymous with MMA in the States I'm afraid, the rest of the world has it's own identifiers. The UFC isn't hugely popular here although it has had a couple of shows here, it's over hyped, they charge too much and don't have that good a quality of fighters on the shows. Here, of the foreign shows, Pride was always far more popular. We value our own home grown promotions as do other countries. Germany has some big shows as does Poland. Russsia of course has some very big shows.
On Saturday I'm going to the M1 show which is a huge promotion with shows in Europe, Russia and Asia. The Russian Red Devils team is competing.
http://www.cagewarriors.com/article.158.htm
In the States if UFC declines I believe Elite have a good chance of taking their place? if theres a vacancy someone will fill it.

I could see Elite XC taking over...it's being broadcast on CBS here, so they're trying to hit primetime with it.

 

[Kwanjang]

It has been my experience- at least in my area MMA stands for mixed up martial arts. In my town we have a MMA "school" (Just to clarify I am NOT bashing MMA in general) at leasts one of the "coaches" over threre if not all of them teaching haven't earned a black belt in ANYTHING. Some of them have achieved mid-level ranks in HKD and TKD. When they go to compititions-thier school does't do well. In my opinion, it's like the blind leading the blind. I beleive you SHOULD be well-rounded and so should your students. If I am not mistaken when the Gracies promoted the UFC, in the early 90's they did dominate that particular "sport" but people started to watch the "game" films of them and fighters adapted to their particular weaknesses. It has been said, 90% of all "fights" go to the ground. But 99.9% start standing. Locally speaking, the pay-off for the win is not as much as the hospital bills you could incurr participating in a MMA event. There is a risk you take in all MA compititions. I have already have seen- the McDojo thing occuring in MMA schools. I hope I didn't offend any MMA people. It was not my intention-just expressing my observations. There are other cool fighting sports like, Pride fighting, K-1 and Shidokan. On a different note, I am impressed with GSP.

 

[teekin]

I completely agree with Shadowchaser on that one. 'Full contact Karate'? Pretty much anyone who uses that phrase has no concept of what they are saying. Full contact is two guys mashing each other until one of them dies. It's not a sport and it's not done in a ring of any sort. As for all those 'old style' tournaments. Ask those guys who competed in them if they would do it all again if they had the choice of wearing protective gear. Anyone with any modicum of common sense will rather take the protective gear. I'm as traditonally inclined as it gets. I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.

Shimeijurasan. 'A level of exactitude and perfection that is the goal of (though beyond the reach of) all martial artists.' To quote Dr. Westwood.

I fully admit my ignorance of Karate. I am seeking an education. Finding it has proven to be a bit of a challange. Thus the post. Your attitude helps do you think? I try not to bleed, do sweat, and do not cry (no matter how ****ing frusterated I am) at practice. I do yell! I do NOT actively try ( well not as a rule, sometimes things kind of... happen) to hurt my training partners, so I am then a waste of mat space, IYHO. Once again, do you think this kind of attitude is helping your chosen sport?
lori

 

[Unkogami]

So you want to see people ctrippled and killed? That is what happens with real Karate being done full contact.

How do you know?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well then it's the Masters who are sinking the TMA boat, not John Q Public. I Want to see real full contact Karate! I Want to see traditional Kata, combat Judo, San Da, and what have you. I just do not have the option. I expose myself to what I can, but it is a tiny fraction of what is out there.

Full contact karate in the context of a tournament means that blows are delivered with full force to specified targets and protective gear of some sort is worn to account for that. WTF style sparring is full contact, and if you consider taekwondo to be karate, then it would be a form of that. Kyokushin tournaments are full contact if I'm not mistaken (Dolph Lundgren has a kyokushin background and was a heavyweight champion in some full contact tournaments as I recall).

Within the context of the dojo, full contact is not generally part of training unless it is sparring in the sport aspect of the style, whatever it may be. Personally, I'm a big fan of a more focused curriculum with just enough added to fill in some gaps. For example, a traditional taekwondo with maybe some sweeps and takedowns along with a little practical SD, but otherwise, keep it taekwondo.

I'm lucky to have access to a brilliant technician to have my many questions answered and to show me any techniques that might be of use. If I didn't have this guide I'd be screwed. I might want to know but wouldn't have a hot clue of where to even Start looking.
Perhaps a bit of house cleaning is in order.
Humbley, Jane Q Public
lori

Many people are screwed, sadly. Unfortunately, most people enroll in or enroll their kids in whatever the local school is, no questions asked. And for what most people are really after, that's okay. But the funny thing is, they do no research whatsoever. Those same people will go to every dealership and hound every salesman until they get the best price on a car, usually saving no more than a couple thousand. But in a dojo with a contract, they can easilly spend that much, and they can do so at a lousy school to boot. With a little research, they could likely find a less expesive place with higher quality.

Out of curiosity, what style of MA is your dojo?

Daniel

 

[teekin]

The school with "the Technician" is MMA. The striking I don't like so much, likely because I suck at it, the ground work, I love. ( jujitsui!!!!!)

The Dojo is Judo, and again has a fantastic teachers who competes at internaional level. Small classes of highly motivated students and open generous sensei.

Your answer to me on Karate was very helpful, thankyou.
Lori

 

[tshadowchaser]

UNkogami

I have sent you my answer on this.

now back to the topic

Without rules accidents and worse happen. Even with rules people are hurt and killed at times. This happens with or without pads.
Old Time tournaments had rules but blood was spilled often and heated rivalries between competitors and schools happened. The grabbing of the uniform as you pounded on someone was always used. Throws where allowed, and contact after the throw by either competitor was allowed. Groin kicks where allowed. Pads where for sissies in those day ( when pads first came into vogue).
When things started getting they often got worse match by match. Judges had a hard time keeping the violence down, that is when they even tried to. Often threats and fights outside the building occurred.
Still having said all that it was a great time and I miss some of it . You defiantly knew who knew their stuff and you had to know how to take a punch/kick and how to protect yourself. Even with those that hated each other there was a grudging respect.

Today things are different. Almost all tournament are run so ridged that bad feeling rarely develop. Tournaments are “FRIENDLY” and all are there to have a good time and make friends

 

[BrandonLucas]

UNkogami

I have sent you my answer on this.

now back to the topic

Without rules accidents and worse happen. Even with rules people are hurt and killed at times. This happens with or without pads.
Old Time tournaments had rules but blood was spilled often and heated rivalries between competitors and schools happened. The grabbing of the uniform as you pounded on someone was always used. Throws where allowed, and contact after the throw by either competitor was allowed. Groin kicks where allowed. Pads where for sissies in those day ( when pads first came into vogue).
When things started getting they often got worse match by match. Judges had a hard time keeping the violence down, that is when they even tried to. Often threats and fights outside the building occurred.
Still having said all that it was a great time and I miss some of it . You defiantly knew who knew their stuff and you had to know how to take a punch/kick and how to protect yourself. Even with those that hated each other there was a grudging respect.

Today things are different. Almost all tournament are run so ridged that bad feeling rarely develop. Tournaments are “FRIENDLY” and all are there to have a good time and make friends

I miss alot of that too. I'm not old enough to have been brought up in the old tournement circuit (I'm 26), but I consider myself "old school" in regards to what I would prefer a tournement to be.

I have never gotten to attend a real full-contact tournement as they used to be. I've only done a few back-yard scraps with friends, just to see how we would hold up. Nothing serious. I wish I could have experienced the full-contact experience without the pads that we wear in class now.

But then, I'm glad that I have pads sometimes...alot of times...as there are alot of people who hit hard.

And I love the "friendly" atmosphere in tournements now. I prefer the sportsmanship over feuding, even if I'm watching a match.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The school with "the Technician" is MMA. The striking I don't like so much, likely because I suck at it, the ground work, I love. ( jujitsui!!!!!)

The Dojo is Judo, and again has a fantastic teachers who competes at internaional level. Small classes of highly motivated students and open generous sensei.

Your answer to me on Karate was very helpful, thankyou.
Lori

You're very welcome! Glad to be of help.

Sounds like you have a good school. I particularly like the breaking down of techniques that you mentioned. Our old head taekwondo instructor, Master Yeo, used to do that.

One word of advice: if your' weak point is striking, get as much of it as you can. As the saying goes, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. One of the reasons I took up hapkido was that I have the opposite perspective: I am adept in striking, but less skilled in locks and throws. I'm 6'4 and short torsoed and long limbed. I wanted something that I could use in a practical SD scenario should an assailant get past my strke zone.

I'd love to train at a traditional judo school, though sadly, I don't have the time to broaden my studies for the forseeable future.

Daniel

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

I do NOT actively try ( well not as a rule, sometimes things kind of... happen) to hurt my training partners, so I am then a waste of mat space, IYHO. Once again, do you think this kind of attitude is helping your chosen sport?

Sorry dood, but did you read my post? You highlighted this I think:

I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.

Please read it again in case I've made an error. I'm not actually trying to insult you. What I'm saying is you're a poor martial artist if you're training with the sole intent at seriously damaging either your training partners or potential competitors. So yeah an attitude like that is good for my way (I'm not a sportsman, I don't train to compete). Also my blood sweat and tears attitude I stick by. Personally I've never actively cried on the mats. However that's not to say my eyes haven't watered after a good shot to the groin (box or no box it hurts like hell!). I always expect to puch my body a bit in every session so I expect to sweat, besides if you do a warm up effectively you will sweat anyways. And as for blood, if you train with live knives at some point you will get cut, hell I got stabbed right on the tip of my chin, how unlucky is that?

Anyways, I didn't want to cause you or anyone any offense, I was just airing an opinion as to if someone were training solely because they wanted to hurt someone.

I'd love to train at a traditional judo school, though sadly, I don't have the time to broaden my studies for the forseeable future.

I actually started my training in Judo when it was on my highschool curriculum. It served as an excellent base to build on and I'm grateful I got to do it. So if you find somewhere to practice, go for it.

Blimey, I'm offline for a week and I miss all the interesting posts....

 

[BrandonLucas]

Blimey, I'm offline for a week and I miss all the interesting posts....

Me too.

 

[teekin]

Sorry dood, but did you read my post? You highlighted this I think:

I think that without the blood sweat and tears it's useless. But you don't train nor 'compete' with the sole aim of hurting someone else as much as you can. If you do in my honest opinion you're a waste of mat space.

Please read it again in case I've made an error. I'm not actually trying to insult you. What I'm saying is you're a poor martial artist if you're training with the sole intent at seriously damaging either your training partners or potential competitors. So yeah an attitude like that is good for my way (I'm not a sportsman, I don't train to compete). Also my blood sweat and tears attitude I stick by. Personally I've never actively cried on the mats. However that's not to say my eyes haven't watered after a good shot to the groin (box or no box it hurts like hell!). I always expect to puch my body a bit in every session so I expect to sweat, besides if you do a warm up effectively you will sweat anyways. And as for blood, if you train with live knives at some point you will get cut, hell I got stabbed right on the tip of my chin, how unlucky is that?

Anyways, I didn't want to cause you or anyone any offense, I was just airing an opinion as to if someone were training solely because they wanted to hurt someone.



I actually started my training in Judo when it was on my highschool curriculum. It served as an excellent base to build on and I'm grateful I got to do it. So if you find somewhere to practice, go for it.

Blimey, I'm offline for a week and I miss all the interesting posts....

I'm a dudette, and I did misread it. My bad. And I have an unfortunate habit of "things" happening to my training partners in MMA classes. Oddly enough I get badgered for not being aggresive enough in MMA classes and have to fight like a wildcat in Judo Randori, Christ they are rough.( there, I wish I could punch and I do elbow. I also found out about "kicking" for hooks. nice) They are all about competing and Winning, strategic interpretation of the rules. This should be an education.
Lori

 

[hogstooth]

This is the never ending question that has been asked from real practitioners for years. How can they stay open while teaching inferior methods and promoting 5 yr old to black belt? It doesn't matter. The bottom line is if a student is serious they will search out a reputable school with a qualified teacher. The problem is the fast food mentality of society today. If you can get your BB in a yr or 2 why would you go to a dojo that it takes longer. They don't think about whether they are getting good instruction or if they are as proficient as a BB in another school. All they know is they reach the same goal with little effort and in a shorter time.
It's really sad but I have seen it myself. I had a student that quit after two weeks training. When I asked him why, he said that in his old school they didn't work this hard and they never had any contact. They pulled all of their punches and kicks and he had never been hit before. He also said that he expected to progress faster. I asked him what he meant due to the fact that he had only taken 4 clasess. He said that he was promoted to yellow belt after the first week and his sensei told him he could expect to see BB with in the year. I asked him what he thought of the yellow belts in my class and asked him to compair their skill level to his as a yellow belt in the other school. He said he didn't like sparring with my yellow belts because they didn't fight the way he was taught. I asked him to spar with me and I can admit we do not spar the same way. He was throwing punches a good foot from me. He was trying a lot of jumping kicks a good two feet from making contact. I stopped him and told him the facts about my art and how long he could expect to train before reaching BB. He quit right then and said he would be going back to the McDojo even though it costed more. I just had to laugh.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

I'm a dudette, and I did misread it. My bad. And I have an unfortunate habit of "things" happening to my training partners in MMA classes. Oddly enough I get badgered for not being aggresive enough in MMA classes and have to fight like a wildcat in Judo Randori, Christ they are rough.( there, I wish I could punch and I do elbow. I also found out about "kicking" for hooks. nice) They are all about competing and Winning, strategic interpretation of the rules. This should be an education.
Lori

Sorry, dudette. I can see where you're coming from with Judo Randori. I was a real weed when I began training so I had a massive disadvantage against all the other kids. I had to learn fast how to throw well and keep my center of gravity lower than my opponent at all times. I've found in Randori you really have to keep on game all the time whereas in most other things I've trained in you can catch a rest now and again when you spar.

It's really sad but I have seen it myself. I had a student that quit after two weeks training. When I asked him why, he said that in his old school they didn't work this hard and they never had any contact. They pulled all of their punches and kicks and he had never been hit before. He also said that he expected to progress faster. I asked him what he meant due to the fact that he had only taken 4 clasess. He said that he was promoted to yellow belt after the first week and his sensei told him he could expect to see BB with in the year. I asked him what he thought of the yellow belts in my class and asked him to compair their skill level to his as a yellow belt in the other school. He said he didn't like sparring with my yellow belts because they didn't fight the way he was taught. I asked him to spar with me and I can admit we do not spar the same way. He was throwing punches a good foot from me. He was trying a lot of jumping kicks a good two feet from making contact. I stopped him and told him the facts about my art and how long he could expect to train before reaching BB. He quit right then and said he would be going back to the McDojo even though it costed more. I just had to laugh.

I dunno about laughing, I'd have cried. It is sad to see. Instant gratification with little effort and absolutely no base in reality. Such a pity.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I dunno about laughing, I'd have cried. It is sad to see. Instant gratification with little effort and absolutely no base in reality. Such a pity.

I come form old school TMA, not as old school as some here, but lets just say Enter the dragon was a brand new movie when I started and things have changed..... and not for the better.

 

[Cirdan]

It's really sad but I have seen it myself. I had a student that quit after two weeks training. When I asked him why, he said that in his old school they didn't work this hard and they never had any contact. They pulled all of their punches and kicks and he had never been hit before. He also said that he expected to progress faster. I asked him what he meant due to the fact that he had only taken 4 clasess. He said that he was promoted to yellow belt after the first week and his sensei told him he could expect to see BB with in the year. I asked him what he thought of the yellow belts in my class and asked him to compair their skill level to his as a yellow belt in the other school. He said he didn't like sparring with my yellow belts because they didn't fight the way he was taught. I asked him to spar with me and I can admit we do not spar the same way. He was throwing punches a good foot from me. He was trying a lot of jumping kicks a good two feet from making contact. I stopped him and told him the facts about my art and how long he could expect to train before reaching BB. He quit right then and said he would be going back to the McDojo even though it costed more. I just had to laugh.

The interesting thing is that this person now really knows he chose wasting his time getting wothless strips of colored cloth instead of taking the opportunity to develop skill.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The interesting thing is that this person now really knows he chose wasting his time getting wothless strips of colored cloth instead of taking the opportunity to develop skill.

and is still willing to pay an overinflated price for said cloth.

Daniel