Is It All In Decline?

[Hyper_Shadow]

I hate the fact that if someone buys enough ad space they seem to get articles printed in a favorable manner to them all the time

I read this comment just now and it has sparked my brain off. In terms of commercial success, martial arts is at an all time high. Movies regularly are released with some some new unheard of before arts emerging from them. UFC is now a mainstream sport and widely accepted around the world. You can almost always find a dojo or somewhere to train no matter where you are. There is now a lot more activity and trading of information taking place between martial arts and entire sciences are evolving around martial roots.
However, I have also come to understand that there is a lot of dischord with it all as well. I don't know if this has been brought up before (though it more than likely has) and I apologise if I'm just regurgitating the same old junk that has been said before. So allow me to throw up some points that I think need mention and I would appreciate any feedback you all could give.
So to my first point and probably the one that is most prominent today. The McDojo. Several dojos (I'm using the term dojo for ease of use as an alternative for any training area) seem to have sprung up over the past few years. Many, for varying reasons (lack of supposed lineage, youth and general lack of instructor experience, numbers of young students, how fast people advance within the school, the list is endless) have been termed McDojos. The key thing that binds them all to this category (in my opinion) is the fact that they all seem to follow the same money making agenda. I ersonally have seen school like this pop up close to where I live and I was absolutely appalled at the complete and utter shameless profit mongering I witnessed by many of them. There were however a couple of places where I saw a genuinely good atmosphere. I may not have been completely at ease with what was being taught, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the dojos were operating in a good and safe manner. My question on this front is: What truly constitutes to something being called a McDojo? And also, is it a typically bad thing to have them around? If a place is really that bad, then the students who want to learn martial arts will surely look elsewhere, then there is always the chance that they will walk through your door. Small point to a much bigger argument I'm sure, so hopefully we can expand on that.

Moving swiftly on. Massive commercialism in the martial arts. I suppose this kind of leads on from the McDojo. But I see everyone milking the martial arts cow almost to death. There are countless magazines available now to cater for every taste. All of which have adverts in them at some point. These magazines (in my opinion) shamelessly promote whoever can pay for the advertising. These people get fantastic reviews and a great reputation when actually they may be really bad instructors and worse, really bad people. The amount of shops that now sell merchandise has increased tremendously and now you only have to run a google search to find anything for anything. People run seminars now charging at several hundred pounds for an attendance (I always thought martial artists were supposed to be eager to share knowledge and information for free). It seems to be a big ego inflating and profit mongering machine that in my opinion is causing massive damage to credible martial arts.

My last major thing follows on again and that is the instructors, no, not just the instructors, the people. The ego is both the greatest asset and the greatest burden to a martial artist (in my opinion). Pride can make you want to perform at your best and most perfect but it can also make your mistakes much worse. For some reason, just because someone now doesn't think a particular martial art is very effective they don't find someone with whom they can discuss the art and attempt to find out about the core principles, instead they just rant and rave about how crap it is. This opinion is then force fed to their students and to anyone that will listen. And when noone listens they go online and rant about it there, sometimes just to start some sort of argument. People are voraciously trying to climb rank and kiss **** and never actually trying to improve themselves. And when they have rank they expect to sit on a pedestal like they've achieved something. In martial arts you've achieved something if you've managed to make a positive difference to one persons life. I don't see anyone asking questions any more. Ask yourselves when was the last time someone asked during a demonstration of technique why you do it? Why are people so scared of rank that they now feel too intimidated to ask a question?

These are just a bunch of ramblings. And as I have seen many bad martial arts and many serious rotten to the core martial artists I have seen the decent side and the good ones as well. But I have to ask, is it enough? It seems to me that eventually all that will be left will be pockets of die hard practitioners who may never even get the chance to meet one another because they just don't want to face the masses of commercial crap. I know there are probably a tonne of holes in what I've just written and I know that it'll probably get ripped to bits, but I like this forum and I respect the members opinions. This was written from the heart, not the head.

What do you all think?

 

[Tez3]

The UFC is NOT a mainstream sport. It's a mainstream promotion,a business. The style of fighting is MMA which is not mainstream yet.

 

[celtic_crippler]

The UFC is NOT a mainstream sport. It's a mainstream promotion,a business. The style of fighting is MMA which is not mainstream yet.

I beg to differ....at least in my neck of the woods...MMA schools are popping up all over the place. I see that as evidence that it is becoming mainstream.

 

[Andrew Green]

So basically things haven't changed much?

Shameless self-promotion & misleading sales pitches are nothing new, they've been in North America as long as martial arts schools have been. There are more of them now, but then there are more martial arts schools as a whole as well.

People generally end up finding what they are looking for, even if it takes a few tries. Some people actually want a school that will constantly tell them how deadly they are and that they can never spar or compete or they will end up killing someone with their magic death touchs. They won't phrase it in that way, but that's what they are after, "real life" role playing.

Others are looking for what really amounts to a after school program, where their kids can play power rangers and be lectured about respect and discipline.

"McDojos" exist because there is a demand for them. Really, that's ok. Harping on about how they are watered down and inferior quality and all that isn't going to change anything. They are the Guitar Hero of the martial arts world. Fun, enjoyable, not much work required. Real guitar players often hate the game, but no one cares, it's still fun and most people really don't want to play real guitar anyways.

 

[Tez3]

I beg to differ....at least in my neck of the woods...MMA schools are popping up all over the place. I see that as evidence that it is becoming mainstream.

Thats good news! As long as it's 'proper' MMA and not people jumping on the bandwagon.
The original point though as you've made, is that it's MMA not UFC.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I beg to differ....at least in my neck of the woods...MMA schools are popping up all over the place. I see that as evidence that it is becoming mainstream.

I agree at least in the USA, MMA is the flavor of the decade. In my neck of the woods all of the TKD schools are adopting BJJ, NHB, and/or MMA programs into their schedules. These are also the same schools that also have the 2yr Black Belt Club program. In addition to that there are also a good number of MMA schools of solid repute in the local fighting scene.

_Don Flatt

 

[Tez3]

I agree at least in the USA, MMA is the flavor of the decade. In my neck of the woods all of the TKD schools are adopting BJJ, NHB, and/or MMA programs into their schedules. These are also the same schools that also have the 2yr Black Belt Club program. In addition to that there are also a good number of MMA schools of solid repute in the local fighting scene.

_Don Flatt

As long as these clubs have reputable instructors in those arts I don't see a problem, that comes when people watch DVDs and decide they know enough to teach other arts than their own. TKD (not hands down stuff I hasten to add) goes well into MMA. BJJ classes with a reputable and qualified instructor is also a good add on for a club whether or not they do MMA.

 

[arnisador]

Let's put the blame where it belongs. The McDojo can't exist without people seeking a quick fix. I'm told Karate used to be practiced in Okinawa as boxing was here--long days in the gym, conditioning and sparring as well as doing solo shadowboxing exercises, and so on.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What truly constitutes to something being called a McDojo? And also, is it a typically bad thing to have them around?

Good question and deserves discussion. I believe the term is thrown around rather loosely much like those throwing out UFC and thinking that is MMA when in fact it isn’t or Kung fu as a style of CMA when it is not.

To me it would have to be a franchise or part of a franchise that is teaching martial arts for the soul purpose of making money with little concern for quality of instruction that is also guaranteeing belts in a certain time period based on a specified dollar amount.

But I see everyone milking the martial arts cow almost to death. There are countless magazines available now to cater for every taste. All of which have adverts in them at some point. These magazines (in my opinion) shamelessly promote whoever can pay for the advertising. These people get fantastic reviews and a great reputation when actually they may be really bad instructors and worse, really bad people.

Part of this, IMO, is up to the consumer to research before they buy. Just because a guy comes form China and was trained in China does not mean he is good. Just because a guy comes form China, was trained in China and has copious DVDs for sale in multiple Magazines does not mean he is good either. I have told my wife (who is from China by the way) that if I were from China I could make a million dollars in the US based on the CMA I have trained and using that to make and sell DVDs. Many eat that stuff up if the person in the DVD, teaching the CMA is in fact Chinese. “Trained in China” means nothing they could be from a Wushu academy they could be a gym teacher they could be a chef. Find out what the statement “trained in China” really means. Also a bit of cultural education about the culture your chosen style comes from can help a lot too.

People run seminars now charging at several hundred pounds for an attendance (I always thought martial artists were supposed to be eager to share knowledge and information for free).

Hey they have to eat and pay bills too and if they are spending their time teaching seminars they are certainly not working anyplace else. But I have a problem with seminars. As my Sifu once said “How much can you learn in 3 days a year?”

And when they have rank they expect to sit on a pedestal like they've achieved something. In martial arts you've achieved something if you've managed to make a positive difference to one person’s life. I don't see anyone asking questions any more. Ask yourselves when was the last time someone asked during a demonstration of technique why you do it? Why are people so scared of rank that they now feel too intimidated to ask a question?

Well I am from traditional CMA and we have no ranks but rank or no rank I would have no problem asking questions.

What do you all think?

I think that the best taiji Sifu I have ever had the honor to train with does not advertise, do seminars or charge much. The best Wing Chun Sifu I ever had the honor to train with advertises a bit but does not do seminars or charge much either.

However I have trained with a Taiji Sifu that is incredibly good that does seminars and charges a bit more too. So I am not sure charging and doing seminars is an issue but it is more to the quality of the teacher and, many may not want to hear this, but it is also more to the quality of the student as well.

 

[Kwanjang]

A great post Hyper Shadow. However, there can be no light without the dark. There are a lot of bad MA out there, but there are a lot of GREAT MA too. I have seen the MA from both sides-as a student and, as an owner. I remember one of the first papers I wrote in college was about "commercialism" in the MA and what a bad thing it was. Well, I was young. Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to McDojos and belt factories. Commercialism is core to our capitolistic country, it ads "healthy" competition to our industry.As far as the money- I have paid lots to get were I am; tournaments, seminars, etc. and I did not mind paying. It would be great to teach everyone for free. But you have to ask yourself, what is your time worth. I contend that "your time" is your most precious and valuable resource...it is non-renewable, when its gone, its gone forever. I give my heart and soul to my students- I don't hold back, but I do charge more than most in my area. I beleive in giving trade in abundance and having a servant leadership mindset. Because of "commerciaism" is why MA of all flavors is popular. I market my school heavily, because--I want to positively influence as many lives as I can, with the art I love so much. I know what the MA has done for me, and I've witnessed MA changing the lives of the people envolved. In 1980 when I started MA my parents paid thirty-five dollars a month for class. A gallon of gas was around 65 cents, a stamp was 25 cents, a gallon of milk was maybe a buck-fifty, the minimum wage was 3.25 an hour, etc. Just a hypothetical question: If your boss came to you today and ask you accept 1980 wages, it probably would not go over well. I see my job as an instructor and a multi-school owner as a very import way to educate people on the V's and B's of MA and exercise. For me, if it was truly about the money-I would have quit a long time ago. Getting paid for what you love to do is sweet, an honor and a privledge, because, if you do what you love---you will never work a day in your life. Once again a great post Hyper Shadow. :asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

What truly constitutes to something being called a McDojo? And also, is it a typically bad thing to have them around? If a place is really that bad, then the students who want to learn martial arts will surely look elsewhere, then there is always the chance that they will walk through your door.

Yes it is bad to have them around. They disillusion students into thinking that the student is actually learning a martial art. They give a false impression that the student will be able to protect themselves. They take students away from those that have devoted many years to learn and achieve an understanding of their art and want to pass that art on. They some times tell lies and spread rumors about those that are legit and drive business away with untruths. Their give a bad name because of their high ranks and bogus belts to all who have really achieved those ranks and belts.

People run seminars now charging at several hundred pounds for an attendance (I always thought martial artists were supposed to be eager to share knowledge and information for free). It seems to be a big ego inflating and profit mongering machine that in my opinion is causing massive damage to credible martial arts.

It also stops many with little money to spare from attending and learning.

And when no one listens they go online and rant about it there, sometimes just to start some sort of argument.

Yep we have had a few of them here

People are voraciously trying to climb rank and kiss **** and never actually trying to improve themselves. And when they have rank they expect to sit on a pedestal like they've achieved something

Yep and that is also why McDojo’s exsist because someone wants to be on a pedestal they do not belong on.
However there are those that have achieved a high status within their organizations that are humble and open to all who ask questions or want to learn. These people have my respect

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes it is bad to have them around. They disillusion students into thinking that the student is actually learning a martial art. They give a false impression that the student will be able to protect themselves.

A lot of things that the typical McDojo does I can let slide as good (if often corny) marketing and necesary income generators that help keep a school open. But this is the single most heinous offense of many of the big commercial schools: that the students with blackbelts from such places actually believe that they can defend themselves. No amount of self image from false praise and empty belts is worth this price. Kids with such belts who think that they can fight wind up far worse off in self esteem when they still get pounded by the schoolyard bully (like what happened to the Karate Kid before he learned from Mr. Myagi).

This is the biggest reason that I am sooooo against blackbelts for young kids. They really can't protect themselves, and that black belt tells both them and their parents that they can.

If the McDojo has quality instruction with all the bells and whistles thrown in to keep the doors open, then fine, but most do not.

Daniel

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Thanks for your input guys. I'm really impressed at the range of answers off of everyone.

I see my job as an instructor and a multi-school owner as a very import way to educate people on the V's and B's of MA and exercise. For me, if it was truly about the money-I would have quit a long time ago. Getting paid for what you love to do is sweet, an honor and a privledge, because, if you do what you love---you will never work a day in your life.

I have to say I have never ever seen someone who runs a dojo for a living come up with a decent anough argument until that. Thanks for your insight.

"McDojos" exist because there is a demand for them. Really, that's ok. Harping on about how they are watered down and inferior quality and all that isn't going to change anything. They are the Guitar Hero of the martial arts world. Fun, enjoyable, not much work required. Real guitar players often hate the game, but no one cares, it's still fun and most people really don't want to play real guitar anyways.

Good point, but it's not the watered down part that is the major problem for me. It is the risk that someone is going to go out of their door feeling completely invulnerable because someone has told them they are. And I seriously hate guitar hero XD.

This is the biggest reason that I am sooooo against blackbelts for young kids. They really can't protect themselves, and that black belt tells both them and their parents that they can.

If the McDojo has quality instruction with all the bells and whistles thrown in to keep the doors open, then fine, but most do not.

Pretty much the counter point to above quote. I have to say this a major concern for me as well. However, I wouldn't say that owning a grade of any kind signifies you can protect yourself. I also believe that if a child is able to perform techniques to a high enough standard then they get the grade. If a kid is capable of doing everything on their syllabus and they do it with confidence and technical knowledge that's good enough for me. If they do kata well (and I have seen kids who do kata better than some of my adults) then they deserve recognition of it. Now I know a school is technique and form, those were just examples. But If I see a child able to do the same techniques as an adult I won't begrudge the childs age against them. If anything they should be given certain concessions in terms of the pressure they're under in grading situations and the fact that it's probably a lot harder for a child to learn MA than an adult.

Good question and deserves discussion. I believe the term is thrown around rather loosely much like those throwing out UFC and thinking that is MMA when in fact it isn’t or Kung fu as a style of CMA when it is not.

Wouldn't have expected anything less than that from you Xue, well said. I also have to apologise when I termed UFC and MMA as the same thing earlier, it would seemed that caused a slight upset. Sorry folks.

Also a bit of cultural education about the culture your chosen style comes from can help a lot too.

To understand the techniques you are taught/teaching it is important to understand why they were being taught in that specific culture.

As long as these clubs have reputable instructors in those arts I don't see a problem, that comes when people watch DVDs and decide they know enough to teach other arts than their own. TKD (not hands down stuff I hasten to add) goes well into MMA. BJJ classes with a reputable and qualified instructor is also a good add on for a club whether or not they do MMA.

What constitutes a reputable instructor. As I had mentioned earlier people can gain positive reputations through quite subversive means. How do you judge someone as an instructor?

Which brings me nicely to my next point. If people are able to so easily advertise themselves and claim great repute, how can people know they're not so good? Personal Experience with one poor instructor could put someone off MA for life. How do you all judge and gauge another instructor?

 

[arnisador]

I have to say this a major concern for me as well. However, I wouldn't say that owning a grade of any kind signifies you can protect yourself. I also believe that if a child is able to perform techniques to a high enough standard then they get the grade. If a kid is capable of doing everything on their syllabus and they do it with confidence and technical knowledge that's good enough for me.

I don't think that separating the notion of "black belt" from "can defend oneself" is good for the arts. That public perception is itself a draw and a motivator.

 

[JadeDragon3]

I beg to differ....at least in my neck of the woods...MMA schools are popping up all over the place. I see that as evidence that it is becoming mainstream.

I agree. MMA schools are everywhere in my area as well leading me to think its main stream.

 

[JadeDragon3]

I agree at least in the USA, MMA is the flavor of the decade. In my neck of the woods all of the TKD schools are adopting BJJ, NHB, and/or MMA programs into their schedules. These are also the same schools that also have the 2yr Black Belt Club program. In addition to that there are also a good number of MMA schools of solid repute in the local fighting scene.

_Don Flatt

The TKD schools here have started teaching Krav Maga.

 

[terryl965]

As long as these clubs have reputable instructors in those arts I don't see a problem, that comes when people watch DVDs and decide they know enough to teach other arts than their own. TKD (not hands down stuff I hasten to add) goes well into MMA. BJJ classes with a reputable and qualified instructor is also a good add on for a club whether or not they do MMA.

The things is most of them do not they get videos attend a few seminar and the next thing you know they are teaching MMA, this is calle dsupply and demand. The market calls for it and people believe in it, what a concept and it has been around for years.

 

[bowser666]

The things is most of them do not they get videos attend a few seminar and the next thing you know they are teaching MMA, this is calle dsupply and demand. The market calls for it and people believe in it, what a concept and it has been around for years.

It is so true. Now that UFC is big MMA schools are stepping up as the next McDojo. Whatever craze catches on after that , will spawn a different wave of McDojo's. It is whatever is most marketable at that time.

 

[celtic_crippler]

It is so true. Now that UFC is big MMA schools are stepping up as the next McDojo. Whatever craze catches on after that , will spawn a different wave of McDojo's. It is whatever is most marketable at that time.

Being that I work in Marketing I would tend to agree.

We live in an "American Idol" society were the craze of the moment is what people gravitate toward regardless of whether it has any substance or not.

 

[JadeDragon3]

It is so true. Now that UFC is big MMA schools are stepping up as the next McDojo. Whatever craze catches on after that , will spawn a different wave of McDojo's. It is whatever is most marketable at that time.

Thats how it was in the 80's with ninjutsu. Everyone claimed to know and teach it when in fact they new a little of this and a little of that and they called it Nijutsu.