Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Steve]

Size and strength matter. But suggesting that technique cannot overcome them is ridiculous. It's aboht goals. Can a 130 lbs blue belt submit a 250 lbs body builder? Maybe not. But certainly, she could create enough space to disengage, return to her feet and flee.

 

[Hanzou]

Its relevant to my point because the size diffference was waht was really stopping royce, if you watch the match Akebono wasnt doing much more than laying there.

Royce subbed an experienced grappler with a significant weight advantage in under 3 minutes in the first round.

Again, I'm not seeing your point here. Royce was the more skilled grappler, and that allowed him to overcome the size/strength disadvantage.

Again, used to it or not, if im 200 pounds heavier pinning down your leg it isnt going to slide out.

If you're used to a heavier opponent pinning down your leg, wouldn't you have developed some counters to that pin?

Open guard wouldnt make much of a difference

Okay, first you told me that you're not able to lock your legs around his torso, or move them up his back due to his size. Now you're saying that guards designed specifically for that scenario wouldn't make much of a difference?

Im not sure if youre not reading the explanation of what a massively larger person can do or Im not explaining well enough. Whether open or closed, the size/strength difference in that position is in his favor. His sheer upper body overpowers mine, letting him put more attention to watching my legs, which because of the sheer width of his torso/shoulders are already at a disadvantage for throwing one over or evern getting them out to push away.

There's been innumerable situations where a guy with a massive upper body advantage has been controlled in an open or closed guard. I think the issue you're having is a skill issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Also you can't really compare a Bjj blue belt who is specifically trained to break guards to an untrained assailant.

In short, your friend is passing your guards because he is trained, not because he's big.

Again, SD Striking isnt trading blows, I said that before as have several people on this site.

Show me an average 250 pound joe who can run a 40 like a linebacker.

That wasn't my point. My point was that a 250lb person isn't always a big slow open target, and a 150lb string bean isn't always generating power like Bruce Lee.

And it was relevant to explain SD Striking, and to explain the point that one isnt inherently more effective than the other (grappling or striking)

For someone who is weaker or weighs less, I'm not so sure.

It should also be noted that plenty of folks know how to choke without any training either

You can't get a good choke until you get a good position to choke.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, she did bloody him, but that didn't end the assault.

And I'm sure anyone would have liked some assistance in that situation. However, if that assistance isn't coming, you better have some more tools in your kit than ineffective body blows.from a bad position.



If that assault would have continued, could we make that argument? Again, someone else entered the situation and forced the assailant to flee, it wasn't her punches or kicks.

Of course there are unknowns and might-have-beens and what-ifs. None of that matters because what's done is done. You believe that if her training had included bjj, it would have been a slam dunk? It would have removed all the unknowns? Rediculous.

But it's you, so I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[elder999]

Size and strength matter. But suggesting that technique cannot overcome them is ridiculous. It's aboht goals..

"Technique" includes strikes.

 

[Hanzou]

[

Of course there are unknowns and might-have-beens and what-ifs. None of that matters because what's done is done. You believe that if her training had included bjj, it would have been a slam dunk? It would have removed all the unknowns? Rediculous.

Slam dunk? No.

In a better general position to escape or subdue her assailant? Absolutely.

 

[Flying Crane]

[

Slam dunk? No.

In a better general position to escape or subdue her assailant? Absolutely.

Except when it isn't. Those are the unknowns and such.

 

[Jenna]

She is a karate practitioner surprised from behind and being taken to the ground

She could have equally been a grappling expert sucker punched in the head

The fault here is not in her style and but instead the fault is in her lacking awareness that she was so remiss or complacent about her safety that someone was able to do this to her before she knew any thing of it.

 

[Drose427]

Royce subbed an experienced grappler with a significant weight advantage in under 3 minutes in the first round.

Again, I'm not seeing your point here. Royce was the more skilled grappler, and that allowed him to overcome the size/strength disadvantage.



If you're used to a heavier opponent pinning down your leg, wouldn't you have developed some counters to that pin?



Okay, first you told me that you're not able to lock your legs around his torso, or move them up his back due to his size. Now you're saying that guards designed specifically for that scenario wouldn't make much of a difference?



There's been innumerable situations where a guy with a massive upper body advantage has been controlled in an open or closed guard. I think the issue you're having is a skill issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Also you can't really compare a Bjj blue belt who is specifically trained to break guards to an untrained assailant.

In short, your friend is passing your guards because he is trained, not because he's big.



That wasn't my point. My point was that a 250lb person isn't always a big slow open target, and a 150lb string bean isn't always generating power like Bruce Lee.




For someone who is weaker or weighs less, I'm not so sure.



You can't get a good choke until you get a good position to choke.

Again, you arent reading my explanation

He isnt passing at all, he knows from that position he can pin me to the point its almost impossible to shrimp, control my hands through muscling and keep track of my legs preventing me from bring them in to create space.


again, an open guard wouldnt make much of a difference here since I cant usually get my legs in to push him away and create space or set up something like an armbar. I could at most get my foot over his shoulder, but without being able to wiggle enough to create the angle its pointless because I couldnt run something from it and even if I got a hand free and pulled on it like royce, it really isnt tight enough to do much.

I DO have a strategy for him,

Use my speed advantage to fight the outside of for the back, i.e. outside singles, duck under, slideby if he tries to come in, and fight for subs from the back. Which works pretty regularly because he simply cant keep up, with my speed or experience to adapt. I.e. the other night I was going for the belly down armbar, didnt work fast enough so I immediately threw the leg over while rotating and holding the arm so it went into proper position, and landed the omoplata.

If he does get in my guard, its a race. I've subbed him with collar choke a couple times. But if he can get ahold and start muscling, my chances are slim.

Again, you seem to have this idea of trading strikes like a boxing match for SD.

Thats not whats taught at all.

You're right, but while youre getting into that poition, you run the risk of being in more danger by going straight to the guy trying to hurt you.

Stand up SD (basically every striking styles sd), is getting out of the way, striking if you have to, leaving if you can.

How many times in boxing has someone been knocked out by a counter hook in that EXACT situation?

Again my point isnt that grappling is inferior,

but to say ones inherently more effective for SD isnt quite true.

 

[Drose427]

[

Slam dunk? No.

In a better general position to escape or subdue her assailant? Absolutely.

Because being underneath the fist of someone larger than you a better position to escape...

 

[Hanzou]

Except when it isn't. Those are the unknowns and such.

Not in this particular case. She's knocked to the ground with the assailant on top of her. In that case, knowing ground fighting puts you in a better position than not knowing ground fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

She is a karate practitioner surprised from behind and being taken to the ground

She could have equally been a grappling expert sucker punched in the head

The fault here is not in her style and but instead the fault is in her lacking awareness that she was so remiss or complacent about her safety that someone was able to do this to her before she knew any thing of it.

I disagree. Her training didn't give her the tools necessary to get out of that situation without outside assistance.

What if she had been a grappler who got suckered punched in the head? Then what? The assailant gets on top of her and places her in pretty much exactly the same position that she regularly trains in? I'd personally would rather be the grappler in that scenario, wouldn't you?

 

[Hanzou]

Again, you arent reading my explanation

He isnt passing at all, he knows from that position he can pin me to the point its almost impossible to shrimp, control my hands through muscling and keep track of my legs preventing me from bring them in to create space.


again, an open guard wouldnt make much of a difference here since I cant usually get my legs in to push him away and create space or set up something like an armbar. I could at most get my foot over his shoulder, but without being able to wiggle enough to create the angle its pointless because I couldnt run something from it and even if I got a hand free and pulled on it like royce, it really isnt tight enough to do much.

I DO have a strategy for him,

Use my speed advantage to fight the outside of for the back, i.e. outside singles, duck under, slideby if he tries to come in, and fight for subs from the back. Which works pretty regularly because he simply cant keep up, with my speed or experience to adapt. I.e. the other night I was going for the belly down armbar, didnt work fast enough so I immediately threw the leg over while rotating and holding the arm so it went into proper position, and landed the omoplata.

If he does get in my guard, its a race. I've subbed him with collar choke a couple times. But if he can get ahold and start muscling, my chances are slim.

So is your argument here that the guard is ineffective against a super-strong opponent?

You know that's nonsense right?

Again, you seem to have this idea of trading strikes like a boxing match for SD.

Thats not whats taught at all.

I understand that that's not what's taught. However, that's what ends up happening when your strikes aren't effecting the target you're trying to take down.

You're right, but while youre getting into that poition, you run the risk of being in more danger by going straight to the guy trying to hurt you.

Stand up SD (basically every striking styles sd), is getting out of the way, striking if you have to, leaving if you can.

Okay, but in this situation, she wasn't standing up, she was on her back.

How many times in boxing has someone been knocked out by a counter hook in that EXACT situation?

Again my point isnt that grappling is inferior,

but to say ones inherently more effective for SD isnt quite true.

I'm saying that one's inherently more effective for weaker/lighter practitioners, like women.

Because being underneath the fist of someone larger than you a better position to escape...

If you've been trained how to escape when underneath the fist of someone larger than you, then yes you're in a better position to escape that situation than someone has hasn't been.

 

[drop bear]

If we were to suggest grappling would be useful. Wouldn't we go for something like folk wrestling where you stand back up?

But otherwise I am not sure why people just don't do both.

 

[Drose427]

So is your argument here that the guard is ineffective against a super-strong opponent?

You know that's nonsense right?



I understand that that's not what's taught. However, that's what ends up happening when your strikes aren't effecting the target you're trying to take down.



Okay, but in this situation, she wasn't standing up, she was on her back.



I'm saying that one's inherently more effective for weaker/lighter practitioners, like women.



If you've been trained how to escape when underneath the fist of someone larger than you, then yes you're in a better position to escape that situation than someone has hasn't been.

No that wasnt my point, but whatever

no, it really isnt what happens. You can find a million videos of bouncers, boxers, etc just getting out of the way and leaving, or hitting one or two times to stop the assailant from coming in anymore then backing off.

Ok but your thread is target SD classes, not just this young ladys incident.

and again, no not really.

And heres the issue with your last point,

I've trained at 5 different BJJ schools in my time studying grappling.

Including Matt Bryers video on his post here, I've seen 2 schools or gyms that have their BJJ guys do any kind of drill prepping them for someone physically striking them.

This is everything from Gracie schools to MMA gyms.

Unless theyre BJJ guys are competing in MMA or taking the MMA class, it isnt something I've ever regularly seen outside of a Relson Gracie school where the head instructor is an ex cop.

While I've done more Newaza at open mats, grappling schools/classes, etc. I've done more drills of getting up from someone wailing on me at SD seminars and my TSD class.

Simply training BJJ doesnt give you that training anymore than simply going to a Krav Class makes you a soldier.

 

[drop bear]

She is a karate practitioner surprised from behind and being taken to the ground

She could have equally been a grappling expert sucker punched in the head

The fault here is not in her style and but instead the fault is in her lacking awareness that she was so remiss or complacent about her safety that someone was able to do this to her before she knew any thing of it.

Even that is a tricky call. I don't think people get routinely jumped enough to know how delicate awareness as a sd really is.

 

[Drose427]

Even that is a tricky call. I don't think people get routinely jumped enough to know how delicate awareness as a sd really is.

it really isnt that difficult to be continuously aware

Anyone with a drivers liscense does it enough tto develop it as a skill

People just dont tend to keep track of everything like they do when they drive in other situations.

They just dont think and shut that awareness off

 

[Hanzou]

No that wasnt my point, but whatever

no, it really isnt what happens. You can find a million videos of bouncers, boxers, etc just getting out of the way and leaving, or hitting one or two times to stop the assailant from coming in anymore then backing off.

Ok but your thread is target SD classes, not just this young ladys incident.

and again, no not really.

And heres the issue with your last point,

I've trained at 5 different BJJ schools in my time studying grappling.

Including Matt Bryers video on his post here, I've seen 2 schools or gyms that have their BJJ guys do any kind of drill prepping them for someone physically striking them.

This is everything from Gracie schools to MMA gyms.

Unless theyre BJJ guys are competing in MMA or taking the MMA class, it isnt something I've ever regularly seen outside of a Relson Gracie school where the head instructor is an ex cop.

While I've done more Newaza at open mats, grappling schools/classes, etc. I've done more drills of getting up from someone wailing on me at SD seminars and my TSD class.

Simply training BJJ doesnt give you that training anymore than simply going to a Krav Class makes you a soldier.

The whole methodology behind Bjj is that your goal is to achieve a dominant position. Everything else is secondary. For example, its pretty easy to punch someone when you're sitting on their chest with your knees in their armpits, or while on their back with their chest to the ground. Its easy to get a shoulder lock in side control, or a choke from the modified mount. A sweep from guard to mount is better than an attempt to submit from guard.

So while Bjj doesn't directly teach strikes, its ingrained in pretty short order that if you have the dominant position, you can do pretty much anything you want. Position before submission as they say.

That's the way it should be anyway....

 

[Steve]

"Technique" includes strikes.

Lol. Didn't meant to imply otherwise.

 

[Drose427]

The whole methodology behind Bjj is that your goal is to achieve a dominant position. Everything else is secondary. For example, its pretty easy to punch someone when you're sitting on their chest with your knees in their armpits, or while on their back with their chest to the ground. Its easy to get a shoulder lock in side control, or a choke from the modified mount. A sweep from guard to mount is better than an attempt to submit from guard.

So while Bjj doesn't directly teach strikes, its ingrained in pretty short order that if you have the dominant position, you can do pretty much anything you want. Position before submission as they say.

That's the way it should be anyway....

Annnnnnnd the whole methodology of striking arts are to first and foremost, get to the side and out of the way of the punch.......then do whatever you need to.


and sprawl, squirm, shove off if they try to grapple.

Again, getting to a better position is great and should be the goal.

But those 5 seconds its taken you squirm out from guard to a better position,

Big bobs hit you in 3 bombs.

When maybe, you shouldnt have tried to to grapple him in the first place.

You should have side stepped, or slipped( if you had the skill) threw a counter hook, then yelled for help, ran, or (if necessary,) hit him with a push kick to knock him the rest of the way back/down so you could get away.

On the flip side,

Maybe bob doesnt punch, he spears you

Now youre down and have no choice but to grapple cause you cant strike, but you have nowhere to go if he strikes, but here grappling is the only option.

One side of the spectrum is effective, but will still have a hole where the other should be

 

[Hanzou]

Annnnnnnd the whole methodology of striking arts are to first and foremost, get to the side and out of the way of the punch.......then do whatever you need to.


and sprawl, squirm, shove off if they try to grapple.

You honestly believe that traditional striking arts train in that fashion? Maybe more modern sport styles like Boxing, but older Asian styles? I'm not seeing that out of them unless they've fully adapted to a kickboxing type of style.

Again, getting to a better position is great and should be the goal.

But those 5 seconds its taken you squirm out from guard to a better position,

Big bobs hit you in 3 bombs.

Something you should be used to encountering if you attended a reputable grappling gym.

When maybe, you shouldnt have tried to to grapple him in the first place.

You should have side stepped, or slipped( if you had the skill) threw a counter hook, then yelled for help, ran, or (if necessary,) hit him with a push kick to knock him the rest of the way back/down so you could get away.

Except when you get blindsided and wind up on your back like this young lady.

On the flip side,

Maybe bob doesnt punch, he spears you

Now youre down and have no choice but to grapple cause you cant strike, but you have nowhere to go if he strikes, but here grappling is the only option.

One side of the spectrum is effective, but will still have a hole where the other should be

And I would still argue that who don't know how to grapple have the bigger hole, since most people know how to naturally claw, pull hair, bite, slap, or kick someone in the groin.