Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Hanzou]

I recently came across this article in another thread;

I basically beat the crap out of him Melbourne karate expert turns the tables on violent attacker - 9news.com.au

In the article, a young woman was almost sexually assaulted by a male attacker. Girl had practiced Karate for 15 years, and fought back against her attacker after he pinned her to the ground and started taking her clothes off. Eventually, someone heard her screaming, and the attacker fled. The woman had a head wound, and some bruised ribs.

Now there's some interesting details that bothered me about this story;

1. The girl struck her attacker several times, but wasn't able to stop the attack.
2. She ended up on the ground after being surprised from behind.

While I applaud her warrior spirit, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if a third party hadn't intervened. I also can't help but wonder what would have happened if she knew some ground fighting/grappling.

 

[Steve]

Grappling/ground fighting is critical. I don't think it's the only thing they need to know, but a purple belt (or at least an experienced blue belt) in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction. That goes for anyone, really..

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Obviously I'm a big believer in grappling as a fundamental self-defense skill. That said, being sucker punched from behind by a bigger, stronger opponent is a bad situation all around. I'm not going to say the young lady would have done better if she had trained in this art or that art.

Grappling is important. Striking is important. I don't think it's helpful to try to argue about which is better.

 

[Danny T]

I espouse to be proficient in fighting situations one needs situational awareness, standing defense and counter attacking (striking and clinching), tripping and takedowns (countering of the same), and fighting on the ground as well as being able to strike while on the ground and finally weapon defenses - standing and on the ground. Within the weapon aspects blunt object, impact, bladed, and firearms.

 

[Hanzou]

Grappling/ground fighting is critical. I don't think it's the only thing they need to know, but a purple belt (or at least an experienced blue belt) in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction. That goes for anyone, really..

Obviously I'm a big believer in grappling as a fundamental self-defense skill. That said, being sucker punched from behind by a bigger, stronger opponent is a bad situation all around. I'm not going to say the young lady would have done better if she had trained in this art or that art.

Grappling is important. Striking is important. I don't think it's helpful to try to argue about which is better.

I agree with all of that. I'm curious though if grappling can't benefit a smaller person better than striking. This young lady was hitting this assailant in the groin and the face constantly to seemingly little to no effect.

 

[Drose427]

I agree with all of that. I'm curious though if grappling can't benefit a smaller person better than striking. This young lady was hitting this assailant in the groin and the face constantly to seemingly little to no effect.

Contrary to what the Gracies said, size does have an impact when it comes to grappling.

Trying to get your legs around a much larger guy is difficult, especially if hes large enough to just keep forcing them down.

Shrimping and scrambling is more difficult,

While once a tech is set, its typically all technique and requires little strength. But getting to that point at a massive size and strength difference, isnt an easy feat.

Even gracies have had trouble and had to do things like hair pull

That said we also have to remember your average joe/jan practicing BJJ isnt as good as a gracie.

She could have had years of BJJ training, and still not have been able to run something simply by being massively over powered.

This isnt a knock on grappling or saying striking is alone more effective, it really isnt as cut and dry like that.

Awareness is one of the biggest things Talked about in SD classes for good reason.

Many rapes, attacks, etc. Happen from behind with no warning.

Whether youre striking or grappling, if the attacker takes your back you're in a world of hurt. When that person in significantly larger than you, its no simple task to get to a better position.

 

[Hanzou]

Contrary to what the Gracies said, size does have an impact when it comes to grappling.

Trying to get your legs around a much larger guy is difficult, especially if hes large enough to just keep forcing them down.

Which is why there's open guards, sweeps from guard, and chokes from guard.

Shrimping and scrambling is more difficult, While once a tech is set, its typically all technique and requires little strength. But getting to that point at a massive size and strength difference, isnt an easy feat.

And she would have had years of experience shrimping, scrambling, and grappling against larger opponents.

That said we also have to remember your average joe/jan practicing BJJ isnt as good as a gracie.

Well we have plenty of examples of non-Gracie females. using grappling in self defense situations. If she had spent 15 years in a grappling art, she would no doubt be highly proficient, considering that she appears to be a very dedicated martial artists. You don't need to be a Gracie to be proficient in a grappling art.

She could have had years of BJJ training, and still not have been able to run something simply by being massively over powered.

And as I said earlier, she would have had years of training against larger, stronger opponents, so she would have been used to the size difference. Many Bjj/MMA/Grappling gyms tend to be loaded with males of all shapes and sizes. An excellent cross section for a female to practice grappling against a larger assailant.

Awareness is one of the biggest things Talked about in SD classes for good reason.

Many rapes, attacks, etc. Happen from behind with no warning.

Whether youre striking or grappling, if the attacker takes your back you're in a world of hurt. When that person in significantly larger than you, its no simple task to get to a better position.

No argument there. In this case she was also attacked from behind, and she ended up on the ground fighting for her life.

 

[Drose427]

Which is why there's open guards, sweeps from guard, and chokes from guard.



And she would have had years of experience shrimping, scrambling, and grappling against larger opponents.



Well we have plenty of examples of non-Gracie females. using grappling in self defense situations. If she had spent 15 years in a grappling art, she would no doubt be highly proficient, considering that she appears to be a very dedicated martial artists. You don't need to be a Gracie to be proficient in a grappling art.



And as I said earlier, she would have had years of training against larger, stronger opponents, so she would have been used to the size difference. Many Bjj/MMA/Grappling gyms tend to be loaded with males of all shapes and sizes. An excellent cross section for a female to practice grappling against a larger assailant.



No argument there. In this case she was also attacked from behind, and she ended up on the ground fighting for her life.

While you made excellent points that we cant contest it doesnt change the fact that if theres I significant size/strength difference it can become impossible to do anything.

Theres still a limit, its not just a matter of being used to it.

IF jans 100 pounds and Johns 250, if he gets on top he can shut down anything.

He can pin her legs, hold her arms down, etc.

While there are a myriad of things one can usually do from guard, in a situation like the australian girls, she could have been incapable of doing anything even with regular BJJ training.

Its not really a matter of familiarity.

I wrestled 132 for 3 years and have been working in submission grappling for about 7 now. I fI roll with our old heavyweight whose a blue belt, I really cant go to my guard. With such a massive size/strength difference, guard becomes a danger zone.

As it could have been in her case.

Again this isnt to say grappling is an ineffecitve method, but just like striking its a pros/cons debate, making it difficult to say which one would really be most effective taught alone.

 

[Hanzou]

While you made excellent points that we cant contest it doesnt change the fact that if theres I significant size/strength difference it can become impossible to do anything.

Theres still a limit, its not just a matter of being used to it.

IF jans 100 pounds and Johns 250, if he gets on top he can shut down anything.

He can pin her legs, hold her arms down, etc.

I don't agree.

Let's say Jan spent 15 years in Bjj like this aussie girl spent in Karate, she would be a black belt in Bjj at this point if she attended classes on a regular, or even semi-regular basis. In that span of time, she's no doubt gone up against opponents in the size range you describe, who also happen to be highly skilled grapplers. Now, when you have a size differential of that magnitude, Jan is clearly at a disadvantage, and more than likely would get shut down much in the manner you describe.... at first. If she's smart, she would roll with guys that size over and over again until she developed strategies that worked in her favor. And again, those strategies would work in her favor against a much larger opponent who is also a skilled grappler. Why wouldn't those same strategies work against a much larger opponent who isn't a skilled grappler?

I have seen sub- 150lb grapplers tap out guys 250+. It's not that uncommon, especially if the lighter person is higher skilled, and/or has better cardio. It's not quite the size difference you describe, but its extremely close.

I would also say that someone of that small weight would have spent their entire Bjj career going up against people larger than themselves. If they've made it all the way to black, a size difference wouldn't be a new experience for them.

While there are a myriad of things one can usually do from guard, in a situation like the australian girls, she could have been incapable of doing anything even with regular BJJ training.

Its not really a matter of familiarity.

She was on her back and had enough of her senses to hit the assailant in the groin multiple times and hit him in the face multiple times. How is the guard a liability here? The guard is designed specifically for exactly that situation.

I wrestled 132 for 3 years and have been working in submission grappling for about 7 now. I fI roll with our old heavyweight whose a blue belt, I really cant go to my guard. With such a massive size/strength difference, guard becomes a danger zone.

As it could have been in her case.

Which makes sense because your typical blue belt should know how to pass a guard, especially if they have a significant weight advantage. You can't really compare that to an untrained assailant going up against a highly proficient grappler.

Again this isnt to say grappling is an ineffecitve method, but just like striking its a pros/cons debate, making it difficult to say which one would really be most effective taught alone.

Well, weight and size is a disadvantage for women in striking as well. I would argue that grappling does a better job of bridging that gap than striking. However, I would never tell a female practitioner to avoid striking altogether.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hanzou got creative with his interpretation of the article.

She successfully defended herself. End of story.

Would bjj have been more helpful for her? Maybe. Maybe not.

Do we all need bjj to be able to defend ourselves? Nope. Would it be useful? Yes if you are interested in training it. No, you are not interested in training it.

Looks to me like another thinly veiled attempt to tell us all that what he does is the best. It's tiresome.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou got creative with his interpretation of the article.

She successfully defended herself. End of story.

Would bjj have been more helpful for her? Maybe. Maybe not.

Do we all need bjj to be able to defend ourselves? Nope. Would it be useful? Yes if you are interested in training it. No, you are not interested in training it.

Looks to me like another thinly veiled attempt to tell us all that what he does is the best. It's tiresome.

I didn't get "creative" at all. I simply studied the details.

1. She has spent 15 years in martial arts, and holds an advanced rank in Karate.
2. She ended up on the ground.
3. Her strikes against his groin and face were ineffective in ending the confrontation.
4. A third party intervened because of her screams, which allowed her to escape.

This thread is based off of those facts.

 

[Drose427]

I don't agree.

Let's say Jan spent 15 years in Bjj like this aussie girl spent in Karate, she would be a black belt in Bjj at this point if she attended classes on a regular, or even semi-regular basis. In that span of time, she's no doubt gone up against opponents in the size range you describe, who also happen to be highly skilled grapplers. Now, when you have a size differential of that magnitude, Jan is clearly at a disadvantage, and more than likely would get shut down much in the manner you describe.... at first. If she's smart, she would roll with guys that size over and over again until she developed strategies that worked in her favor. And again, those strategies would work in her favor against a much larger opponent who is also a skilled grappler. Why wouldn't those same strategies work against a much larger opponent who isn't a skilled grappler?

I have seen sub- 150lb grapplers tap out guys 250+. It's not that uncommon, especially if the lighter person is higher skilled, and/or has better cardio. It's not quite that size difference, but its extremely close.



She was on her back and had enough of her senses to hit the assailant in the groin multiple times and hit him in the face multiple times. How is the guard a liability here? The guard is designed specifically for exactly that situation.



Which makes sense because your typical blue belt should know how to pass a guard, especially if they have a significant weight advantage. You can't really compare that to an untrained assailant going up against a highly proficient grappler.



Well, weight and size is a disadvantage for women in striking as well. I would argue that grappling does a better job of bridging that gap than striking. However, I would never tell a female practitioner to avoid striking altogether.

Again, all it takes for a larger person to shut down even a trained Jiu jitiero is to muscle his way to pinning down their arms and/or legs (depending on the size discrepancy here, he may not need to)

A good example is the royce Akebono fight. Royce really couldnt get anything with his arms or do anything. If Akebono would have paid attention to royces legs he wouldnt have gotten the omoplata that led to akebonos demise. Even once he got one leg over he had difficulty getting it.

Even an untrained oaf is going to keep pushing or blocking legs if theyre in his way.

It isnt a matter of my friend passing my guard, because of the sheer size and strength difference, its hard to effectively use legs when someones so much larger that I cant lock my legs up, or even get my legs up his massive torso without being at the right angle.

The sheer size/strength difference gives him control of my upper body from my guard and all it takes is for him to keep tabs on my legs.

A massive size difference in SD striking is a simple matter of evasion until you can leave. an untrained 250 pounder wont be quicker or faster than a trained 100 pounder,

But in grappling, that 100 pounder is in more danger of being hit ( assuming it isnt a quick submission) because you're right there.

There was a video on here waaaaaaay back when of a big ol' drunk fat guy trying to attack a couple bouncers. He was swinging massive wild haymakers and all the bouncers did was step out of the way.

Stand up SD isnt all about getting the KO, its about getting out.

 

[Flying Crane]

I didn't get "creative" at all. I simply studied the details.

1. She has spent 15 years in martial arts, and holds an advanced rank in Karate.
2. She ended up on the ground.
3. Her strikes against his groin and face were ineffective in ending the confrontation.
4. A third party intervened because of her screams, which allowed her to escape.

This thread is based off of those facts.

Wrong again. I too read the article. She bloodied him. I'm sure you too would have appreciated some assistance in such a circumstance.

She successfully defended herself, after being blind-sided. That's a tough situation for anybody

 

[Hanzou]

Again, all it takes for a larger person to shut down even a trained Jiu jitiero is to muscle his way to pinning down their arms and/or legs (depending on the size discrepancy here, he may not need to)

A good example is the royce Akebono fight. Royce really couldnt get anything with his arms or do anything. If Akebono would have paid attention to royces legs he wouldnt have gotten the omoplata that led to akebonos demise. Even once he got one leg over he had difficulty getting it.

So how exactly is that a good example to prove your point? Akebono is a trained grappler, and outweighed Royce by hundreds of pounds, yet Royce still subbed him in a matter of minutes.

Even an untrained oaf is going to keep pushing or blocking legs if theyre in his way.

And anyone trained in Bjj would be used to someone pushing or blocking their legs and responding accordingly. Especially someone who is always fighting at a heavy weight/strength disadvantage.

That's the benefit of rolling.

It isnt a matter of my friend passing my guard, because of the sheer size and strength difference, its hard to effectively use legs when someones so much larger that I cant lock my legs up, or even get my legs up his massive torso without being at the right angle.

Try an open guard instead of a closed guard. Of course an open guard is harder to defend with than a closed guard, but if you can't properly utilize a closed guard, then you need to make the switch. Also are you actively practicing Bjj or just dabbling in it? If its the latter, it doesn't matter what you do because he's in a bjj academy learning how to utilize and break guards, and you're just messing around with them. If its the former, discuss your issues with your instructor. He'll probably also tell you to start learning and utilizing open guards.

A massive size difference in SD striking is a simple matter of evasion until you can leave. an untrained 250 pounder wont be quicker or faster than a trained 100 pounder,

And as was the case in this situation, the strikes were largely ineffective. Frankly, a 150 lb person trading blows with a 250 lb person seems like suicide. They're are football players who are 250lb, and they're not slow people by any stretch of the imagination.

But in grappling, that 100 pounder is in more danger of being hit ( assuming it isnt a quick submission) because you're right there.

There was a video on here waaaaaaay back when of a big ol' drunk fat guy trying to attack a couple bouncers. He was swinging massive wild haymakers and all the bouncers did was step out of the way.

Stand up SD isnt all about getting the KO, its about getting out.

That's great, but I'm not seeing the relevance to this discussion, especially since this girl wasn't standing up.

 

[elder999]

Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?
No.

While I've posted in the past about how women should have grappling training-even noting that learning to fight from the guard (exactly where a rapist wants to be) is good training, a woman should also learn how to do damage by striking-and clawing-her attackers.

 

[Hanzou]

Wrong again. I too read the article. She bloodied him. I'm sure you too would have appreciated some assistance in such a circumstance.

Yes, she did bloody him, but that didn't end the assault.

And I'm sure anyone would have liked some assistance in that situation. However, if that assistance isn't coming, you better have some more tools in your kit than ineffective body blows.from a bad position.

She successfully defended herself, after being blind-sided. That's a tough situation for anybody

If that assault would have continued, could we make that argument? Again, someone else entered the situation and forced the assailant to flee, it wasn't her punches or kicks.

 

[Hanzou]

Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?
No.

While I've posted in the past about how women should have grappling training-even noting that learning to fight from the guard (exactly where a rapist wants to be) is good training, a woman should also learn how to do damage by striking-and clawing-her attackers.

It should be noted that plenty of women know how to claw or kick groins without any training at all.

 

[Drose427]

So how exactly is that a good example to prove your point? Akebono is a trained grappler, and outweighed Royce by hundreds of pounds, yet Royce still subbed him in a matter of minutes.



And anyone trained in Bjj would be used to someone pushing or blocking their legs and responding accordingly. Especially someone who is always fighting at a heavy weight/strength disadvantage.

That's the benefit of rolling.



Try an open guard instead of a closed guard. Of course an open guard is harder to defend with than a closed guard, but if you can properly utilize a closed guard, then you need to make the switch. Also are you actively practicing Bjj or just dabbling in it? If its the latter, it doesn't matter what you do because he's in a bjj academy learning how to utilize and break guards, and you're just messing around with them. If its the former, discuss your issues with your instructor. He'll probably also tell you to start learning and utilizing open guards.



And as was the case in this situation, the strikes were largely ineffective. Frankly, a 150 lb person trading blows with a 250 lb person seems like suicide. They're are football players who are 250lb, and they're not slow people by any stretch of the imagination.



That's great, but I'm not seeing the relevance to this discussion, especially since this girl wasn't standing up.

Its relevant to my point because the size diffference was waht was really stopping royce, if you watch the match Akebono wasnt doing much more than laying there.

Again, used to it or not, if im 200 pounds heavier pinning down your leg it isnt going to slide out.

Open guard wouldnt make much of a difference. Im not sure if youre not reading the explanation of what a massively larger person can do or Im not explaining well enough. Whether open or closed, the size/strength difference in that position is in his favor. His sheer upper body overpowers mine, letting him put more attention to watching my legs, which because of the sheer width of his torso/shoulders are already at a disadvantage for throwing one over or evern getting them out to push away.

My training is more submission wrestling than Gracie BJJ like his. We have very similar training. We've had several similar instructors and coaches, and roll with many of the same Purple and Brown Belts, but I've been rolling longer and roll more often.

He rolls once a week at the schools formal class, whereas I roll anywhere from 2-4 times a week with most of the same guys, just outside of the formal class. Although, I get invited to open mat fairly often and go if I can.

Ultimately, I've had more instructions from higher belts, coaches, instructors, etc. than he has, but dont attend the same formal class due to scheduling conflicts.

Again, SD Striking isnt trading blows, I said that before as have several people on this site.

Show me an average 250 pound joe who can run a 40 like a linebacker.

And it was relevant to explain SD Striking, and to explain the point that one isnt inherently more effective than the other (grappling or striking)

Its all situational pros/cons.

I can usually beat my Blue Belt heavyweight partner, but not from guard.

 

[Drose427]

It should be noted that plenty of women know how to claw or kick groins without any training at all.

It should also be noted that plenty of folks know how to choke without any training either

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah, the woman had not managed to finish off her attacker with striking before he fled.

If she had been a grappling specialist, there's no guarantee she would have been able to finish him off with a choke or jointlock before he fled either.

Would it have been beneficial for her to have ground grappling experience? Absolutely! If nothing else, it would have greatly improved her ability to escape from the bottom and get back to her feet. That doesn't mean that grappling is better than striking. It's just another reason why it's good to have both in your toolbox.