IP Techniques: Do We Need Them?

[Twin Fist]

they're gonna move, and maybe, just maybe, you wont be able to do the moves 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, but instead, you may have to do 5,2,3,1,8,4,2, etc.

yeah, thats reality, but you need the IP to learn the techniques lessons, and then, after that you can go to the what if stage. Once you have learned what the techniques have to teach you, then you can go 5,7,1,9,2,4,6,4 because you already know how to chain techniques together in a logical sequence.

you do not know that right out of the gate, as Doc said, his people are not allowed to ask "what if" for a LONG time.

anyone saying that the IP isnt teaching them something is too convinced that they already know it all..IMO

 

[ATACX GYM]

do you think that the longer your post is, the more impressive it is gonna come across ? Cuz it doesnt.

Like your videos. 7 minutes of you jawin, and 15 seconds of you doing something, at half speed with a compliant foe....

Seriously, learn to cut to the chase.

It took you 7 minutes to read that post? Your reading speed is...unimpressive. And it's NOT ME "jawin"...it's Mr.Parker who in word and deed is repudiating the entirety of your contention that "techniques are irrelevant" to the lesson being taught. And YES you CAN go at half speed and STILL be functional...and the "foe" wasn't compliant.The "foe" was EXECUTING THE TECH IN QUESTION AGAINST A PUNCH THAT WOULD HAVE HIT HIM HAD HE NOT BLOCKED.However slow the tech was,it would have hit had the block failed.Then Mr.Parker briefly picked the speed of the punches up until the young Black belt did the Reverse Motion block INSTINCTIVELY,and then Mr.Parker stopped and pointed that action out.With the forms vids and contouring,Mr.Parker actually executed the techs in question while "jawin" as you put it...so when we cut to the chase? Your contentions are thoroughly repudiated and mine are comprehensively upheld by the same person in whose name you are claiming to ardently and rigorously follow...Mr.Parker himself.And the 2nd most senior person on this board...Doc...also has direct experience confirming functionality to be the key and essence of both Mr.Parker's Kenpo and Doc's own.As it is with mine (some 40-50-60 years after Mr.Parker intro'd Kenpo to America).As it's NOT with yours...as your championing of the Motion Kenpo IP shows.

If we cut to the chase? You're wrong and you know it.To use some of the vernacular of the kids nowadays...:"YOU JUST GOT SERVED".

 

[ATACX GYM]

yeah, thats reality, but you need the IP to learn the techniques lessons, and then, after that you can go to the what if stage. Once you have learned what the techniques have to teach you, then you can go 5,7,1,9,2,4,6,4 because you already know how to chain techniques together in a logical sequence.

you do not know that right out of the gate, as Doc said, his people are not allowed to ask "what if" for a LONG time.

anyone saying that the IP isnt teaching them something is too convinced that they already know it all..IMO

What you're forgetting is that Doc actually has them perform against escalating levels of resistance,so they don't HAVE to ASK "What If"...THEY FACE "WHAT IF". Remember? In this very thread,Doc stated:"What if they punch with the other hand?" "Doesn't matter",Doc replies. "What if they try to grapple?" To which Doc basically said that proper execution of the base stops allat noize. The hypothetical student then says: "What if.." to which Doc answers:

SHUT UP AND TRAIN!!

The training contains the "What Ifs". The students FACE the punch from the other hand on the mat.They face the grappling.And then they HAVE their answers because IF THEY TRAIN FUNCTIONALLY they WILL BE CALLED UPON TO PERFORM FUNCTIONALLY.And the "What Ifs" are the essence of functionality,NOT the Motion Kenpo constructed IP. Exactly as MJS and I and Doc and others do...and exactly as you do NOT.


Look at SL-4 DELAYED SWORD


http://youtu.be/NaT1uAMg7yg

Look at the reestablishment of the 'base'. Look at the hand movements while covering out.You know what that hand movement has gotta be? It's gotta be some kind of vertical grappling countering upper body distance control/manipulation along with lower body footwork achieving same,and covering.You know how you learn to do those specific movements? When somebody grabs you,you execute the tech,AND YOU INCLUDE YOUR OPPONENT'S FUNCTIONAL RESPONSE.He may block the neck strike or smother it.He may punch toward you.He may rush you.He may do alotta stuff that isn't REMOTELY addressed in the IP.You then add what you learn to the base tech,which changes its execution,and bang! More functionality.

Look at the base IP Captured Twigs:

http://youtu.be/Y4FV0cNFDr0

http://youtu.be/IrtTTbqOpGQ


Look at mine,which is fnctional and covers everything from the grab to the ground...and you do essentially the same tech every time:


http://youtu.be/6swpRPoq05Q half hip heist


http://youtu.be/xevT5TPfcGE full hip heist

http://youtu.be/AKAoR0eDa8I ground grappling

Mine works.I spar with mine.That IP crap is wakk and doesn't work. Therefore the reason that students can be confidently forbidden to ask WHAT IF until they learn the tech is because the WHAT IFs are already covered and make themselves manifest on the mat,in just a matter of a week or two TOPS.Instead of NEVER manifesting themselves because the techs are nonfunctional IP championing Motion Kenpo to start with.

 

[Twin Fist]

your VIDEOS are 7 minutes of jawin, 15 seconds of half speed action with a compliant foe. I thought i was pretty clear about that.........I guess you are better at posting than reading

and uh?

"as your championing of the Motion Kenpo IP shows."

I am not championing ANYTHING, so if you have to make **** up to make a point, it is pretty clear you dont actually have one.....
The only thing i have "championed" is that you cant go to phase 3 right off, you HAVE to start at phase 1 (or the IP, or whatever you call it) FIRST, and even Doc has said so too.

Parker created the 3 phase training model for a reason, and unlike some, I dont think i know better than he did.......

Now I would say that anyone that ONLY does IP training is full of crap, but then, I would also say that anyone that claims they can go right to phase 3 training, without spending time on IP training is also full of crap.

YOU have claimed you dont have to start with IP training, well, thats what YOU say.....And until you learn to post in something other than a wall of text, i cant deal with you.

PS, yes we know, you have told everyone 100 times, you are the bomb, you are the best, you are awesome...blah blah blah

 

[Thesemindz]

You paint a pretty grim picture of Mr. Parker and his intentions Ras. While I wouldn't refute the facts, I prefer to see him, his students, and the martial arts community in general in a slightly better light.

Ok, he created a system of techniques that are maybe marginally executable exactly as written and disseminated that throughout the country. And he got paid for it. But a man has a right to feed his family. And what did he really do? He took all his combined karate knowledge at a certain point in his life, condensed it down to a few hundred lessons, and had it put in a binder. Then he shopped those lessons around, and other karate guys took his lesson plan and sold it as their kenpo.

He was right. It was their teacher's fault. But I don't think he was a villian for doing it. You have to remember, it was still the best thing going. I have a lot of karate books. And most of the techniques shown in them are pretty basic. Out Block/Cross. Countergrab. Out Block/Front Kick. And that's the whole book. That's what was being shopped around at that time. Mr. Parker put together something far more complex. Was it perfect? No. But it was groundbreaking. And innovative. And a lot of us are better for it.

If he hadn't shopped it around and sold it to charlatans and spent so much time away from his family trying to promote it maybe it wouldn't be here for us to complain about. Personally, I'm thankful. Are the techniques perfect? I was never told they were supposed to be. I was told that they were supposed to demonstrate specific physical movements, combat scenarios, concepts, and interactions specific to unarmed combat. And not all techniques do all those things at the same time.

For instance, a technique like Lone Kimono works in a purely functional sense. Take him, break him, hit him in the throat. But a technique like Fallen Falcon could never be performed to completion, as written, against anything but a dead man. Fallen Falcon isn't supposed to be performed as written. It's a repository for a group of similiarly themed actions. Opponent prone face up at 3 with their near arm extended into your grab. Strikes to the near side, arm, and head.

Some techniques teach specific grappling moves that are important enough to have slapped a simple striking combination onto one end of just so they could get a name and make a spot on the list. Some techniques exist because Pro Wrestling was popular at the time and students would come into schools asking how to defend against popular wrestling holds. How many times do you see a full nelson in a real fight? Some techniques teach defense against a kick right side forward, left side forward, hands up, hands down, moving back, moving forward, moving laterally. Then the students could be encouraged to practice them "left and right handed" to double the amount of possible physical combinations! Some techniques exist because they are universal responses to common assaults, or throwbacks to old Chinese Chuan'Fa, or got picked up in a jiu jitsu class sometime. Some techniques exist to teach common striking combinations, or lock escapes. Sometimes the most important part of the technique isn't the technique at all, but the attack. When I teach Captured Twigs we spend most of our time talking about bearhugs, not stomp/elbow combinations.

There's a middle ground here Ras. There are people who only teach the Ideal Phase, never practice the techniques against resistance, don't spar, don't practice dynamic drills, and don't know their techniques don't work because they don't practice them on the body.

Then there are people who practice some version of the functional style. Usually one they came up with on their own based on something they learned from someone else and then made specific personal alterations to based on what they found worked. And they found out what worked by working the material.

But those aren't the only two schools of thought. Many schools use the Ideal Phase techniques as a series of loose class plans around which they build drills and exercises drawn from the material. This is what I do, but so do many others in one form or another. My students are required to learn, perform, and understand the techniques in the Ideal Phase. But they understand that that is not intended to be the true combat expression of the kenpo that I teach. I may make changes to the material, but on their own, those changes aren't important, because the point is to teach the system as a whole, not to teach specific responses to specific defenses. I don't care if I step to 10 or 11 in this technique, or if I use a handsword to the throat or a backnuckle to the temple, because we're going to practice the technique in every direction anyway, with every basic to every target, against every attack, against resistance, while moving. Eventually. So Ideal Phase isn't really important to me except as a kind of footnote for the knowledge I want to teach today. I look up, see Deflecting Hammer and think, "ok, so front kicks, deflecting blocks, stepping away with defenses/in with counters, long range to short range, angular momentum, high hands/low hands/hi hands, bringing the target to the weapon, moving to the oustide of the opponent's stance, stepping in with checks, striking the head, inward elbow strikes, and push drag foot maneuvers." We're only gonna spend a few minutes on Deflecting Hammer, but we're gonna spend most of the class on all that other stuff. I keep the technique in the system because I need a place to teach all that stuff anyway. But I don't expect my students to deify Deflecting Hammer. I expect them to not get kicked in the balls.

I know there's a lot of crap kenpo. And I know we all kind of got the raw deal from the generation of kenpo seniors ahead of us. I remember the exact moment where I had that realization. I was on a bus. But there's more to it than that. We can't hold all the previous kenpo students and instructors responsible for not uniting and keeping Mr. Parker's creation alive. Every one of those guys had their own lives to live. And some of them did try to make things work. And some of them still do.

And maybe we're better off. Instead of one monolithic Church of Kenpo, we have some guys over there doing kenpo knife, and some guys over there doing kenpo groundfighting, and some guys over there doing kenpo with escrima, or with TKD, or with jiu jitsu. We have SL4 and 5.0 and ATACX GYM and more bastards and independents than we'll ever know. And sure, there's some crap. But there's some real bad dudes too.

Kenpo isn't perfect. Neither were any of the instructors who came before us. But that's humans for you. It's not all bad. And there are a lot of really great karate guys out there. I know sometimes it seems like you live in a world of idiots, but if you can see farther than others then maybe you've just looked farther. A lot of people are comfortable where they are at, that doesn't make them liars and theives. They may be wrong, and they should probably address that. But maybe they will someday. It's not my job to correct them. I'm working on my own kenpo.

I'm teaching my students the patterns of kenpo, but I teach them basic boxing, kickboxing, groundfighting, and falls and throws and weapons work too. And we practice sparring and randori and kicking each other while we're laying on the floor and striking a prone opponent with a mantrap chair. I'm looking for techniques everywhere, I don't care if it's TKD or JKD or BJJ or MMA. If somebody has a good idea, we find a place for it in class. I don't care if it's in Sword of Destruction or Dance of Death, if it works, it's kenpo.

Parker had a lot of teachers, and students, and friends, and peers. He trained with a lot of people who are universally viewed as masters, like Gene Lebell, and he was obviously a rare mind. A unique individual in a pivotal time in history. And his art as it's most commonly practiced is only a reflection of where he was in his training at a certain point in his life.

Imagine if you took all your no doubt considerable knowledge and skill, put it in a book, and then that was what was practiced all over the world by hundreds of thousands of martial artists. You'd probably be pretty stoked, and you'd probably pursue that in good faith. But ten years later? Twenty years later? You might think that original version needed an update. By most accounts, Mr. Parker felt that way about what he'd created. But he died before he could update it. Which is sad, but not evil, and not really the most important thing.

It isn't up to Mr. Parker to make me good at karate. It's up to me. He left some signage for me to follow, but I'm alone on my path and I have to find my own way. I appreciate the techniques, and my understanding of the "ideal phase" allows me to use them as a valuable teaching tool.

Your comparison between EPAK and JKD is not wrong, and not a coincidence. The two men knew each other, they shared ideas, they compared notes, they talked late into the night about their philosophies. And many of their beliefs were very similar. If you read the writings they left behind you see a clear progression from extremely traditional training methods and techniques to increasingly more realistic combat oriented concepts and techniques. Mr. Parker wrote Chinese Karate and The Law of the Fist before he wrote Infinite Insights. Mr. Lee wrote Chinese Gung Fu before he began his work on Jeet Kune Do. These were martial artists who were still learning. And their work reflects that. Of course they grew and changed over time, isn't that the lesson of martial arts? You get better. You understand more. Of course EPAK isn't perfect, Mr. Parker wasn't perfect. And he was far better than the vast majority of the people who've ever taught his system.

Lots of karate instructors name their styles after themselves, few are practiced all over the world in their lifetime and beyond. It's not just because he was a crackin' good salesman. At a time when there weren't dozens of karate schools in even the smallest towns, he was one of the only people in the country practicing karate. At a time when every karate guy knew ever other karate guy, and everybody knew who the best was, Mr. Parker was already respected as a Master. And not just by dweebs. By full contact karate fighters, and hollywood stuntmen, and military men, and security professionals, and Elvis Presley. Sure, he was in it for the money. But we all have to pay the mortgage. And he was worth it. What happened after that is unfortunate, but it's not his fault, or kenpo's fault. It's bad instructors. It always comes back to the instructors.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

The only thing i have "championed" is that you cant go to phase 3 right off, you HAVE to start at phase 1 (or the IP, or whatever you call it) FIRST, and even Doc has said so too.

Parker created the 3 phase training model for a reason, and unlike some, I dont think i know better than he did.......

Now I would say that anyone that ONLY does IP training is full of crap, but then, I would also say that anyone that claims they can go right to phase 3 training, without spending time on IP training is also full of crap.

Dude, you always make this a "so you think you're smarter than Ed Parker" debate. Nobody's challenging Ed Parker. Just because someone comes to a different conclusion, or uses a different training model, or teaches anything else doesn't mean they think they're better than Ed Parker. Maybe you should come up with something else. Ed Parker doesn't need your help. Even dead, he can defend himself. He's that badass.


-Rob

 

[Twin Fist]

Rob, i know YOU are not......

BTW- your wall of text just made my eyes bleed....lol

but there is much truth there. There is no point or truth in critisizing SGM Parker for percieved flaws and faults, that are really just a lack of understanding.

take the technique, use teh three phase tier, learn the techniques lessons, and then expand.

but you cant skip "A" and expect to get anything from "B" or "C" cuz your basic understanding will suck ***.

 

[ATACX GYM]

You paint a pretty grim picture of Mr. Parker and his intentions Ras. While I wouldn't refute the facts, I prefer to see him, his students, and the martial arts community in general in a slightly better light.

Ok, he created a system of techniques that are maybe marginally executable exactly as written and disseminated that throughout the country. And he got paid for it. But a man has a right to feed his family. And what did he really do? He took all his combined karate knowledge at a certain point in his life, condensed it down to a few hundred lessons, and had it put in a binder. Then he shopped those lessons around, and other karate guys took his lesson plan and sold it as their kenpo.

He was right. It was their teacher's fault. But I don't think he was a villian for doing it. You have to remember, it was still the best thing going. I have a lot of karate books. And most of the techniques shown in them are pretty basic. Out Block/Cross. Countergrab. Out Block/Front Kick. And that's the whole book. That's what was being shopped around at that time. Mr. Parker put together something far more complex. Was it perfect? No. But it was groundbreaking. And innovative. And a lot of us are better for it.

If he hadn't shopped it around and sold it to charlatans and spent so much time away from his family trying to promote it maybe it wouldn't be here for us to complain about. Personally, I'm thankful. Are the techniques perfect? I was never told they were supposed to be. I was told that they were supposed to demonstrate specific physical movements, combat scenarios, concepts, and interactions specific to unarmed combat. And not all techniques do all those things at the same time.

For instance, a technique like Lone Kimono works in a purely functional sense. Take him, break him, hit him in the throat. But a technique like Fallen Falcon could never be performed to completion, as written, against anything but a dead man. Fallen Falcon isn't supposed to be performed as written. It's a repository for a group of similiarly themed actions. Opponent prone face up at 3 with their near arm extended into your grab. Strikes to the near side, arm, and head.

Some techniques teach specific grappling moves that are important enough to have slapped a simple striking combination onto one end of just so they could get a name and make a spot on the list. Some techniques exist because Pro Wrestling was popular at the time and students would come into schools asking how to defend against popular wrestling holds. How many times do you see a full nelson in a real fight? Some techniques teach defense against a kick right side forward, left side forward, hands up, hands down, moving back, moving forward, moving laterally. Then the students could be encouraged to practice them "left and right handed" to double the amount of possible physical combinations! Some techniques exist because they are universal responses to common assaults, or throwbacks to old Chinese Chuan'Fa, or got picked up in a jiu jitsu class sometime. Some techniques exist to teach common striking combinations, or lock escapes. Sometimes the most important part of the technique isn't the technique at all, but the attack. When I teach Captured Twigs we spend most of our time talking about bearhugs, not stomp/elbow combinations.

There's a middle ground here Ras. There are people who only teach the Ideal Phase, never practice the techniques against resistance, don't spar, don't practice dynamic drills, and don't know their techniques don't work because they don't practice them on the body.

Then there are people who practice some version of the functional style. Usually one they came up with on their own based on something they learned from someone else and then made specific personal alterations to based on what they found worked. And they found out what worked by working the material.

But those aren't the only two schools of thought. Many schools use the Ideal Phase techniques as a series of loose class plans around which they build drills and exercises drawn from the material. This is what I do, but so do many others in one form or another. My students are required to learn, perform, and understand the techniques in the Ideal Phase. But they understand that that is not intended to be the true combat expression of the kenpo that I teach. I may make changes to the material, but on their own, those changes aren't important, because the point is to teach the system as a whole, not to teach specific responses to specific defenses. I don't care if I step to 10 or 11 in this technique, or if I use a handsword to the throat or a backnuckle to the temple, because we're going to practice the technique in every direction anyway, with every basic to every target, against every attack, against resistance, while moving. Eventually. So Ideal Phase isn't really important to me except as a kind of footnote for the knowledge I want to teach today. I look up, see Deflecting Hammer and think, "ok, so front kicks, deflecting blocks, stepping away with defenses/in with counters, long range to short range, angular momentum, high hands/low hands/hi hands, bringing the target to the weapon, moving to the oustide of the opponent's stance, stepping in with checks, striking the head, inward elbow strikes, and push drag foot maneuvers." We're only gonna spend a few minutes on Deflecting Hammer, but we're gonna spend most of the class on all that other stuff. I keep the technique in the system because I need a place to teach all that stuff anyway. But I don't expect my students to deify Deflecting Hammer. I expect them to not get kicked in the balls.

I know there's a lot of crap kenpo. And I know we all kind of got the raw deal from the generation of kenpo seniors ahead of us. I remember the exact moment where I had that realization. I was on a bus. But there's more to it than that. We can't hold all the previous kenpo students and instructors responsible for not uniting and keeping Mr. Parker's creation alive. Every one of those guys had their own lives to live. And some of them did try to make things work. And some of them still do.

And maybe we're better off. Instead of one monolithic Church of Kenpo, we have some guys over there doing kenpo knife, and some guys over there doing kenpo groundfighting, and some guys over there doing kenpo with escrima, or with TKD, or with jiu jitsu. We have SL4 and 5.0 and ATACX GYM and more bastards and independents than we'll ever know. And sure, there's some crap. But there's some real bad dudes too.

Kenpo isn't perfect. Neither were any of the instructors who came before us. But that's humans for you. It's not all bad. And there are a lot of really great karate guys out there. I know sometimes it seems like you live in a world of idiots, but if you can see farther than others then maybe you've just looked farther. A lot of people are comfortable where they are at, that doesn't make them liars and theives. They may be wrong, and they should probably address that. But maybe they will someday. It's not my job to correct them. I'm working on my own kenpo.

I'm teaching my students the patterns of kenpo, but I teach them basic boxing, kickboxing, groundfighting, and falls and throws and weapons work too. And we practice sparring and randori and kicking each other while we're laying on the floor and striking a prone opponent with a mantrap chair. I'm looking for techniques everywhere, I don't care if it's TKD or JKD or BJJ or MMA. If somebody has a good idea, we find a place for it in class. I don't care if it's in Sword of Destruction or Dance of Death, if it works, it's kenpo.

Parker had a lot of teachers, and students, and friends, and peers. He trained with a lot of people who are universally viewed as masters, like Gene Lebell, and he was obviously a rare mind. A unique individual in a pivotal time in history. And his art as it's most commonly practiced is only a reflection of where he was in his training at a certain point in his life.

Imagine if you took all your no doubt considerable knowledge and skill, put it in a book, and then that was what was practiced all over the world by hundreds of thousands of martial artists. You'd probably be pretty stoked, and you'd probably pursue that in good faith. But ten years later? Twenty years later? You might think that original version needed an update. By most accounts, Mr. Parker felt that way about what he'd created. But he died before he could update it. Which is sad, but not evil, and not really the most important thing.

It isn't up to Mr. Parker to make me good at karate. It's up to me. He left some signage for me to follow, but I'm alone on my path and I have to find my own way. I appreciate the techniques, and my understanding of the "ideal phase" allows me to use them as a valuable teaching tool.

Your comparison between EPAK and JKD is not wrong, and not a coincidence. The two men knew each other, they shared ideas, they compared notes, they talked late into the night about their philosophies. And many of their beliefs were very similar. If you read the writings they left behind you see a clear progression from extremely traditional training methods and techniques to increasingly more realistic combat oriented concepts and techniques. Mr. Parker wrote Chinese Karate and The Law of the Fist before he wrote Infinite Insights. Mr. Lee wrote Chinese Gung Fu before he began his work on Jeet Kune Do. These were martial artists who were still learning. And their work reflects that. Of course they grew and changed over time, isn't that the lesson of martial arts? You get better. You understand more. Of course EPAK isn't perfect, Mr. Parker wasn't perfect. And he was far better than the vast majority of the people who've ever taught his system.

Lots of karate instructors name their styles after themselves, few are practiced all over the world in their lifetime and beyond. It's not just because he was a crackin' good salesman. At a time when there weren't dozens of karate schools in even the smallest towns, he was one of the only people in the country practicing karate. At a time when every karate guy knew ever other karate guy, and everybody knew who the best was, Mr. Parker was already respected as a Master. And not just by dweebs. By full contact karate fighters, and hollywood stuntmen, and military men, and security professionals, and Elvis Presley. Sure, he was in it for the money. But we all have to pay the mortgage. And he was worth it. What happened after that is unfortunate, but it's not his fault, or kenpo's fault. It's bad instructors. It always comes back to the instructors.


-Rob

Helluva post man.There are many points in there which I agree with...but my main point which I emphasize over and over and over again is being missed by you guys in the most part.Here it is again:

I have no problem with people who love the IP for any reason not directed related to combat functionality.Have at the IP all you like,under those circumstances. But here IS NO COMBAT,CONCEPTUAL OR PRECEPTUAL BENEFIT TO THE IP PHYSICAL EXPRESSION BECAUSE IT'S NONFUNCTIONAL.Period.Therefore,it the IP- Functional Idea+Dysfunctional Physical Expression. This model is ALWAYS AND FOR PERPETUITY INFERIOR TO the model which I prefer and apparently Mister Parker and Doc have always used,which is: Multilayered Intellectually Potent Combat Functional Concept+Highly Functional,Highly Efficient Real World Physical Expression Of The Tech. This is so amazingly simple and obvious,that's it's almost disheartening to have this conversation in this area.

The Functional Model is ALWAYS better.Because IT FUNCTIONS. If you START with the nonfunctional IP...no matter what you do from there...you WILL NOT get the benefits associated with being functional from jump street. If the concept behind say,Deflecting Hammers,makes you think something like (as you said):"ok, so front kicks, deflecting blocks, stepping away with defenses/in with counters, long range to short range, angular momentum, high hands/low hands/hi hands, bringing the target to the weapon, moving to the oustide of the opponent's stance, stepping in with checks, striking the head, inward elbow strikes, and push drag foot maneuvers." That's GREAT.That's largely my thought process too.Know where we differ at?

My Deflecting Hammer works EXACTLY AS IT IS,and therefore articulates the concepts and ideas that WE GET (not Mr. Parker or the Motion Kenpo guys who for the most part created what we think of as the physical articulation of the IP in the first place) much better than if the tech didn't work but the concept is sound. We might have an artichect who can diagram and plan the hell out of a house,but if the construction crew can't do the job? The result will be: NO HOUSE. That's exactly what the ideas behind the IP (great idea) and the physical articulation of the IP (NO HOUSE) are.

But let's stay focused on the point I'm raising.Twin Fist: Never thought of dissing Mr.Parker's intelligence.Why would I do such a thing? If I thought he was a fool,I wouldn't be practicing concepts and precepts which he popularized. However,the empirical irrefutable evidence remains that the IP is nonfunctional...and in order to make it work,YOU MUST CHANGE HOW YOU EXECUTE AND TRAIN THE TECHS.Repeat: in order to make it work,you MUST CHANGE how you EXECUTE AND TRAIN the techs.Therefore,beyond any form of discussion,the techs do NOT reflect the functional concepts behind it.Brainstorm: change all the nonfunctional crap which was so offensive to Mr.Parker (according to Doc's anecdote) that even when Mr.Parker SAW HIMSELF DOING HIS OWN TECHS,he got so offended that he got up and stomped out,and vowed to NEVER put himself on film again...to stuff that (even though it too will evolve) WILL WORK EVERY TIME and is therefore MANY TIMES SUPERIOR IN EVERY WAY TO ANY TECH THAT DOESN'T PHYSICALLY DO WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO. Period.Full stop.This isn't the Unification Theory,folks.If you teach me Deflecting Hammer and it's supposed to stop me from being kicked in the nuts? Dammit,it better work.Or else me and my sore nuts are gonna have a REAL problem with you. Now,AFTER IT WORKS...you can work all that other great stuff. You know....that "front kicks, deflecting blocks, stepping away with defenses/in with counters, long range to short range, angular momentum, high hands/low hands/hi hands, bringing the target to the weapon, moving to the oustide of the opponent's stance, stepping in with checks, striking the head, inward elbow strikes, and push drag foot maneuvers" stuff.Which I TOTALLY AGREE WITH. But if THE TECH AS IS DON'T WORK,then the EVERY STEP THAT IS USED TO TRAIN THE TECH IS SUSPECT TOO.Because you might take just as dysfunctional an approach TO THE COMPONENTS OF THE TECH as you do to EXPRESSING THE TECH which will result in...no surprise...A TECH THAT DOESN'T WORK.Conversely? If you train your techs every whichaway so that it DOES WORK? Then THE TECH YOU DO IS NOT THE IP CUZ THE IP DOESN'T WORK.Take a look-see at my Captured Twigs and Alternating Maces.I simply took the tech and made it work.Not that much of a change was made other than the part that is the MOST IMPORTANT which is: IT WORKS NOW.Like it's SUPPOSED TO WORK.Swear to God (don't mean you,Thesemindz,with this observation) some Kenpo folks are the only human beings on this Earth that I know of who will decry something laudable that does admirably and consistently exactly what it's supposed to do...while praising to the high heavens some crap that even THEY know DOES.NOT.WORK. If your Deflecting Hammer WORKS? Then IT'S FUNCTIONAL. If you stay true to the one and only true gospel of functionality. So when your variant of Deflecting Hammer works? Me and my not sore nuts are all happy happy joy joy now...and all of your other techs will ACTUALLY WORK TOO and WORK BETTER because ALL OF YOUR STUFF IS FUNCTIONAL...including the concepts and precepts behind them. And they're getting constantly refined in the process so it's GETTING MORE FUNCTIONAL.

If people are happy having a middle road between stuff that doesn't work and stuff that does? Cool.Maybe they're happy with the compromise that allows one nut to get kicked instead of two,too.Lol.Sallgood with me.I don't care about that at all.Whatever reason that anyone has to do the IP? Have at it. But one thing that NOBODY can claim is that something that's DYSFUNCTIONAL has ANYTHING BENEFICIAL OR EVEN EQUIVALENT WHATSOEVER to the FUNCTIONAL expression. If you use the IP "as a series of loose class plans around which they build drills and exercises drawn from the material"? Well that's a GOOD IDEA to me. I do something similar myself.The moment you or anyone else deliberately have students practiced DYSFUNCTIONAL ANYTHING...well,THAT'S the area that we disagree; but it's still coo. But the moment you have me practicing something THAT YOU KNOW AHEAD OF TIME DOES NOT do what you're telling me it does? Now THAT'S where we progress from a difference of opinion to an empirical break with truth and honesty.Truthfully and honestly,Deflecting Hammer for instance doesn't reliably protect my nuts in the IP variant.My version--which I'm putting up along with a boatload of other kenpo,kicking drills,and combat capoeira techs in about 2 weeks--works well every time.Cuz it's functional. And every student wants functional over dysfunctioanl.Doubt me? Betcha this: If you throw a real world kick at the nuts...however slow...betcha your students will be some FUNCTIONAL Deflecting Hammer doing individuals to keep their nuts safe.And they'll prefer that over getting their nads punted up amongst their ears,100% of the time.

I'm not sweating Mr.Parker for being paid for teaching.That's a GREAT idea.Hell,I charge people too (not a bunch of money...usually under $75/mo) so I'm not mad at Mr.Parker there at all.Doc already made it clear that Mr.Parker WAS NOT doing what Doc termed "motion-based Kenpo",and practically everyone beyond a specific demarcation line--after the first generation or something,gotta go back and look at Doc's post--WAS doing "motion-Kenpo". That means that practically everyone here except Doc and a few others have a lineage borne of "Motion Kenpo" and NOT EPAK...whatever claims to the contrary we might make.That includes me. My roots go back to Sijo Muhammed and a BB under Ed Parker in the 60's who taught my uncle's Coach.My uncle taught me. This timeline set in the mid-60's to the present would seem to be just before and right at the emergence of "motion Kenpo" as a burgoening commercial success and the very distinct separation of it from Mr.Parker's personal "American Kenpo" and even "hard principle American Kenpo" as a WHOLE (like Doc's SL-4)...down to the very second that I'm writing this post and beyond.

 

[Thesemindz]

Yah. I pretty much agree with all of that.

I guess the difference is that you practice the Self Defense Techniques as actual fighting techniques. As the correct, specific, functional response to a specific attack. I haven't done that in a long time. Once I realized they didn't work, which was probably around brown belt, I quit looking at them like that. I don't think of them like that, I don't even refer to them that way in my own head and writing. I think of them as patterns. Lessons. Like sets and forms and no more directly applicable to combat than Kicking Set 1 or Form 4. I think of them as coordination drills, and target demos, and thematically related series of movements.

So I teach them, because I want all my students to learn that stuff, but I don't expect them to be executed in combat, or to work properly if they were. We practice them on the body because I want my students to practice those drills and exercises on flesh. But when we learn Hooking Wings for instance, I don't expect my students to be able to execute the entire striking pattern on an attackers head. Instead I expect them to learn short and long range strikes to the head and using foot maneuvers to change range. Then I teach them to spontaneously express those lessons in combat through the use of increasingly realistic solo and partner and competitive drills and activities.

I get what you're saying. You're techniques work as actual fighting moves. I teach a lot of techniques that work as actual fighting moves, such as clinch positions and grappling maneuvers and striking combinations, I just don't lump the self defense techniques in with those. I lump them in with the other kenpo patterns. They're more like a textbook to me than a series of instructions. So you're hitting people with the textbook too. I got no problem with that.

I'm sure you're way works. It looks neat, and I'm interested to see as you evolve it over time. I know I'm not teaching what I was six years ago, or six months ago. Do you find that you have to drastically reduce the size and complexity of the techniques to make them functional in your sense? I had considered doing that, reducing them down to minimal, high percentage, maneuvers, but I wanted to keep the longer choreographed pieces. Do you have choreographed, pre-arranged interactions or do you teach everything as "live" practice?


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

I'm curious Ras. Do you teach sets and forms?


-Rob

 

[Carol]

I was curious about that as well. Your material seems to be more RBSD than other systems (which is not a bad thing at all).

 

[ATACX GYM]

Yah. I pretty much agree with all of that.

I guess the difference is that you practice the Self Defense Techniques as actual fighting techniques. As the correct, specific, functional response to a specific attack. I haven't done that in a long time. Once I realized they didn't work, which was probably around brown belt, I quit looking at them like that. I don't think of them like that, I don't even refer to them that way in my own head and writing. I think of them as patterns. Lessons. Like sets and forms and no more directly applicable to combat than Kicking Set 1 or Form 4. I think of them as coordination drills, and target demos, and thematically related series of movements.

So I teach them, because I want all my students to learn that stuff, but I don't expect them to be executed in combat, or to work properly if they were. We practice them on the body because I want my students to practice those drills and exercises on flesh. But when we learn Hooking Wings for instance, I don't expect my students to be able to execute the entire striking pattern on an attackers head. Instead I expect them to learn short and long range strikes to the head and using foot maneuvers to change range. Then I teach them to spontaneously express those lessons in combat through the use of increasingly realistic solo and partner and competitive drills and activities.

I get what you're saying. You're techniques work as actual fighting moves. I teach a lot of techniques that work as actual fighting moves, such as clinch positions and grappling maneuvers and striking combinations, I just don't lump the self defense techniques in with those. I lump them in with the other kenpo patterns. They're more like a textbook to me than a series of instructions. So you're hitting people with the textbook too. I got no problem with that.

I'm sure you're way works. It looks neat, and I'm interested to see as you evolve it over time. I know I'm not teaching what I was six years ago, or six months ago. Do you find that you have to drastically reduce the size and complexity of the techniques to make them functional in your sense? I had considered doing that, reducing them down to minimal, high percentage, maneuvers, but I wanted to keep the longer choreographed pieces. Do you have choreographed, pre-arranged interactions or do you teach everything as "live" practice?


-Rob

Not only do my techs work as actual fighting moves,they also serve veeerrry functionally as lessons,sets,drills,etc.See,it's my experience that when you can fight with these techs,you HAVE TO grasp the functional concepts (THAT ARE REVEAL THEMSELVES DIFFERENTLY TO EACH OF US IN SPECIFICS BUT SHARE A COMMON THEME AND LESSON WHICH WE ALL INTERPRET IN OUR OWN WAY) behind them quite well. Then you can break each set down into functional mini labs. You can isolate and work each tech of each sequence and reeeeaaaallly learn lots from it that YOU CAN'T LEARN if it DOESN'T WORK.You can isolate and work each stance in each tech. Try Captured Twigs the traditional way.Cat Stance and all. But only seek to control his hands and use you energy and level changing,constantly moving stances--all the stances that you know at that rank (Yellow) which you deem applicable--to unbalance your opponent.To develope a body feel for his positioning and his sense of balance.To set him up for strikes. If you do the same tech along the lines and ranges that I require--Weapon Range,Standup,Clinch,Seated (Up-Seated,Seated-Seated,Seated-Ground),Standing-Ground,Ground-Ground,Armed and Multifight (including Armed Multifight) variants of all of this,Escape,Rescue,and Rescue and Escape variants of all of this--with my more functional expression? Lots and LOTS of lessons to be learned.Literally more than a lifetime of them. I will be long dead and so will my students and THEIR students before we even APPROACH A THOUSANDTH of what can be learned from these situations.

If you H-Wrap his hands and do a Cat Stance? You've applied a wrist lock and nearly thrown your opponent.Transition smoothly and explosively into a Bow or Nuetral Stance THROUGH HIM in the direction that your opponent's unbalanced? Off he flies. If you keep moving,keep grabbing,and transition explosively from stance to stance,through passed and beyond your opponent? You're grappling your butt off.Kenpo style. And almost nobody has a defense against it,because it's so unusual; looks like one thing or whatever but DOES NOT operate like that "one thing" . I have a whole DVD wherein we explore the stances,checks,Talons,etc and its grappling applications in what I call Grappling Stance Sets.Gonna see if I can put some of the footage on my Youtube Channel for review.

Interestingly,I don't actually REDUCE the number of techs that I have,I CONNECT them to a spare set of principles which are the well-spring of all my techs. Gives me infintely more TECHS than I even knew that I had prior to trying things this way. I pulled off a standing S-lock from Mr.Parker articulated them. So did Bruce Lee. Mestre Bimba (an old skool capoeira mestre of gigantic stature,founder of Regional) articulated them in sayings and songs and so have maaaaaany other mestres sifu sensei etc. etc. over the millenia.

I'm curious Ras. Do you teach sets and forms?


-Rob

Not only do I teach sets and forms,I absolutely insist upon it. I remember a few MT guys were crakkin on me while doing one of the Finger Sets. "Dis ni44a doin sign language?" LOLOLOL. That was funny and that wouldn't've bothered me until the inevitable disses flipped onto the efficacy of Kenpo itself. "You gonna get robbed and ole dude's like:"GIMME YO DAMN MONEY!" and you're gonna be like (exaggerated sign language gestures):'I! DON'T! UNDERSTAND! YOU!' Man that ole bullsh.. kain't help you in a REAL fight!"

Oh yeah? Let's see. Right now.

Check lead hand transverse across the body,crossing in front of and nullifying the ability to throw the cross.HWD manipulation.Simultaneous with the height width depth manipulation (HWD) was the stiffened finger jab to the groin with the rear hand.In Finger Set 2,that finger jab would go to the solar plexus. Down goes one.

"OHHHH!!" The other 3 said. Then one of the 3--big dude,roundabout 6'2" 230--stepped up like:"Dawg you didn't just karate-fy my homeboy! You ole buff midget *** LEROY Machida havin,short *** FLYIN NEGRO CROUCHIN TEA ROLL lookin muddafuh! Time to drop some of this Muay Thai on you,son..."

Check leg kick from ole dude,intercept his jab with a sidekick,hard check,feint finger whip to the groin+stiffened finger thrust to the throat and he went down.

"DAYAMN!" chorused the remaining two.

"Must I do some American Kenpo sign language all up in here?" I asked them. "Nah brah we good." They responded."Ya boyz are good too.No real damage done." I replied.And went right back to my Finger Sets practice.

I love forms.Not only for their aesthetic value and the fact that they're mini-libraries of specific techs in specific belt ranks,but when coordinated with proper breathing and body alignment? They're fantastic yoga! And I'm a yoga fiend,folks.

I was curious about that as well. Your material seems to be more RBSD than other systems (which is not a bad thing at all).

Thank you very much for the compliment! And yes,I have an absolute mandatory unequivocable requirement that every tech I teach must work.In every range of combat.I also need to have to have done the tech myself either in a fight or during sparring prior to teaching my students.Every single tech in Kenpo that I know? I've sparred or fought with. Lots. A whole lot. There are certain kinds of insights that you have only when you've energetically used the tech yourself.Alot.Against skilled resistance.Alot. I absolutely feel that I'm doing myself and my students a disservice if I teach them something that I haven't direct and comprehensive hands on experience with.There isn't a single SD tech in Kenpo that I can't fight with.Alot.Against anyone of any style or no style. That's how it should be,imo.

 

[Twin Fist]

TLDR

too long, didnt read.

bored now

 

[ATACX GYM]

TLDR

too long, didnt read.

bored now

Don't care. Thought I'd share that fun fact.

 

[Carol]

Ras, are you a student of Doc's? Do you integrate much SL-4 in to your Kenpo? Just asking because I looove Doc's stuff, but I'm exactly in the right part of the country to try it.

 

[ATACX GYM]

your VIDEOS are 7 minutes of jawin, 15 seconds of half speed action with a compliant foe. I thought i was pretty clear about that.........I guess you are better at posting than reading

and uh?

"as your championing of the Motion Kenpo IP shows."

I am not championing ANYTHING, so if you have to make **** up to make a point, it is pretty clear you dont actually have one.....
The only thing i have "championed" is that you cant go to phase 3 right off, you HAVE to start at phase 1 (or the IP, or whatever you call it) FIRST, and even Doc has said so too.

Parker created the 3 phase training model for a reason, and unlike some, I dont think i know better than he did.......

Now I would say that anyone that ONLY does IP training is full of crap, but then, I would also say that anyone that claims they can go right to phase 3 training, without spending time on IP training is also full of crap.

YOU have claimed you dont have to start with IP training, well, thats what YOU say.....And until you learn to post in something other than a wall of text, i cant deal with you.

PS, yes we know, you have told everyone 100 times, you are the bomb, you are the best, you are awesome...blah blah blah

I know you were saying that I talk for 7 minutes etc. My comment was subtle sarcasm. Which you missed.You also missed the videos where I am sparring bareknuckle with someone going at significantly closer to street speeds.

By the way: where are your videos displaying your transcendental grasp of true self-defense Kenpo at hyper speeds vs a fully resistant training partner or street criminal? Love to see them.Love to see ANY video that you have,in fact.I'd love to compare the incredible intricacies and resounding secrets of your technique which you have plumbed to the depths of Kenponess with my techs.

My claim is NOT that nobody has to start with the IP in the sense of the idea BEHIND the PHSYICAL MOVEMENTS. My issue was,is,and remains the fact that the popular sequences that we conflate with articulating the physical functioning of the IP are dysfunctional and must be upgraded to functionality.All dysfunctional crap should be used as fertilizer or trashbinned,etc.

TWIN FIST:

"Now I would say that anyone that ONLY does IP training is full of crap, but then, I would also say that anyone that claims they can go right to phase 3 training, without spending time on IP training is also full of crap."

^^^That's good to know.I never claimed to go right to phase 3 training...instead I've harped over and over again on the fact that I use the I:3 method (Introduction,Isolation,Integration) and all of this focuses on real world attacks.Realistic attacks are used and executed and defended against with all the requisite technical skill from day one...thus our drills responses counters interceptions etc. are also 100% real world and technically sound at all levels. You don't do this.That's cool with me.

Btw you DID champion Motion Kenpo,whether you knew it or not.Contrary to your claim,as Doc specifically stated,Mr.Parker DID NOT enshrine and create the specific physical movements of what we miscall the IP...he merely articulated concepts and showed techs. If asked how to do something,Mr.Parker would ask:"How do YOU do it?" according to Doc.The ideal phase is in actuality a concept which is supposed to be expressed numerous functional ways by using the techs that the Motion Kenpo teachers learned from Ed Parker,combined with their stuff,and taught to their students. So the split second you champion the IDEA of the IP? We agree. Where we differ is that you ALSO swear that the FUNCTIONAL IDEA behind the IP is encapsulated in the DYSFUNCTIONAL TECHS that we see. There are no lessons,nothing whatsoever of worth,to be drawn from a tech THAT DOESN'T WORK other than: THIS ISH DOESN'T WORK.FIX IT. That's all. I am absolutely of the unyielding uncompromising position that functional ideas concepts precepts etc. must be physically articulated by equally functional movements. That's where I differ with you and about 90% of kenpoists out there.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Ras, are you a student of Doc's? Do you integrate much SL-4 in to your Kenpo? Just asking because I looove Doc's stuff, but I'm exactly in the right part of the country to try it.

Not a student of Doc's.I like his stuff too,but we have some rather sharp technical differences which are borne of our differing life experiences.Our SIMILAR stuff is borne of SIMILAR life experiences,too.Doc's got about 20 years on me,he's from L.A.,home of the driveby.I'm reppin those raw dawgs from East Side,North,and DT LBC (Long Beach City),Compton CA,plus the rough hood of Southeast San Diego. On top of that? I'm a BKF 2nd dan,South Central L.A and 109th and Broadway style; and Doc co-founded the BKF. If it wasn't for him? Guys like me literally couldn't train martial arts or compete fairly literally because I'm Black.So I owe him lots and lots,plus we have some experiential overlap;but he definitely outstrips me when it comes to "time on the mat".

But I can certainly hold my own in a side by side tech comparison with any Kenpoist breathing,I would say...without any arrogance either.Because I know my stuff works,and anybody who knows anything about functionality will say the same thing.The only difference between functional stylists is degree of functionality...and that degree tends to decrease as time passes.Me? I prefer a very comprehensive approach.Lotsa grappling,weapon use,joint locks,even finger locks.Every single one of the 72 SD techs comprising the spine of Kenpo I can fight with.From ANY hand held nonprojectile weapon to h2h combat range. And I add the ranges of Escape,Rescue,and Rescue&Escape to all of my techs. I have never,for instance,seen a Kenpo stylist use a standup Kenpo tech FUNCTIONALLY that also can be done FUNCTIONALLY in the exact same way or very close to it NO MATTER WHAT THE RANGE OF COMBAT.I can do and show video of it. I have never seen Doc on the ground so Idk about his ground grappling and groundfighting skill,but I hold a black belt in judo I have years of wrestling,boxing,Muay Thai,5th dan in tkd,dans in tangsoodo and othe disciplines and I hold a blue in bjj so I'm more than proficient on the ground both striking and subbing.Plus I'm more than able with weapons and I integrate weapons in every range,too. In every tech. Lolol people laugh when I break out the knives or tell them to go for their gun and say:"DO ALTERNATING MACES". Then the knives start flashing or they start trying to draw their gun while under attack,and the laughter STOPS.Then I show them how to do it. Then they LOVE IT.I show them ho to apply it to their katas and sets...without changing a single movement in the katas and sets.More loving of it.They musta thought I was Mcdonald's or something,cuz they Mclove ATACX GYM.Lol.

They pierce behind the veil of physical tech to the concept behind it,and they marry the concept to ANY movement that articulates the concept.Now they have AN INFINITY OF MOVEMENTS...from just ONE concept. And it's alll functional,they MUST spar with it,and they wind up learning all of this stuff VERY quickly.They can do whatever tech I show them the same day I teach them...and they can fight against a street fighter of roughly equivalent size etc. the same day I teach them.In 4 days of training,they can fight decently on the streets.In 1-2 weeks they'll mop the floor with any untrained streetfighter on their block.And it's not magic; people have known how to train for performance for MILLENIA...just some Kenpo folks in particular react with apoplectic raging indignation when you say:"Ahhhh...you CAN'T do what you said the tech is SUPPOSED to do trying it like that.And if it doesn't work? You're missing the concepts behind it ENTIRELY.Cuz the FIRST thing a self-defense martial art MUST DO RELIABLY is DEFEND YOURSELF SUCCESSFULLY." That's when they start with all that hokum about Buddha level lessons to be learned from feces. Yeah but...it's STILL feces.Lol.

 

[Twin Fist]

and the race card comes out


again


this guy is a joke.

 

[ATACX GYM]

and the race card comes out


again


this guy is a joke.

Sooo...giving the just accolades that is Doc's due=race card? You have THE WRONG pack of cards,and your brain needs an upgrade. I guess if anyone mentions how people like Martin Luther King and Thaddeus Stevens--a White man--helped bring about the end of legal apartheid in the United States during their respective eras,that would be "the race card" to you too. I guess if anyone mentioned the Woman's Suffrage Movement,they'd be playing "the gender card" in your opinion.Too many times before you respond to a post,Twin Fist,you hit the OFF button on your brain and let your fingers publicize the fact that you did so.

Whether or like you like it or want to deal with it,there was apartheid in America ("separate but not so equal") at that time...and everyone with a conscious and courage and awareness from W.E.B. DuBois to Rosa Parks,from Martin to Malcolm,from The Freedom Riders to President LBJ,from Thaddeus Stevens to Doc and Jerry Trimble and others rose to the call.They're HEROES and deserve recognition for their extreme bravery,foresight,and principled stance.

It's astounding that you can take a multiparagraph response,distill it to one sentence that you dislike,and then distort out of context EVERYTHING even in the one sentence that you dislike,to fit your warped preconceptions. What...are you bucking for a PR job with The Tea Party? Everyone else was having a brisk,intellectual conversation that was positive and stimulating.We're not going to allow your incessant dooficity to disrupt the positivity of this exchange.

With all that in mind? We have proof imperishable that I'M not a joke,but I might be TELLING a joke...and if I were? The joke's on YOU.

 

[Twin Fist]

Doc got his bb from someone.........
steve sanders got his BB from someone......
thomas lapuppet got his bb from someone.......


that dog doesnt hunt on planet reality, and yeah, one retarded statement can and in your case DOES render anything else out of you irrelevant. To me at least

If Stephen King, who is an undisputed master of his craft came out and said he was a 9-11 truther, that little bit of crazy would ruin him for me, pretty much forever.

Thats why i am no longer a Jesse Ventura fan

so yes, this latest (centainly not the first time, more like the 101st time you have done it) playing of the race card from you is the straw that has broken this camels back

you are boring, and exceedingly long winded. And whatever skill you claim to have (even tho no one has ever heard of you) is hidden under 14 layers of ego, chest thumping, crazy racist crap.

Good bye.

Dont bother responding cuz you are going to the iggy list and i wont see it.