Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by MJS, Mar 30, 2011.
Thoughts, comments, likes, dislikes.
Reading some stuff from some of the original group of SGM Parker's students, this was one of the first techniques taught. It was called "Kimono Grab" back then.
I have always liked the technique, I think it teaches some good stuff and is great for beginners to get a feel for fluidity with their hands.
I don't have the book with me, but in Ed Parker's first book "Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist" there is a technique very similiar. The main difference I noticed was that after the upward strike to the arms, you off step and hit with a raking backfist to the ribs before striking down onto the arms.
I have also heard (but never had confirmed) that Kimono Grab was a Prof. Chow technique that he had used when someone attempted to grab him.
What is each technique designed to teach us?
The idea behind this technique is practical solid and important for self defense.It's even very functional in competition.But the way it's taught and trained is TERRIBLE.You will get hurt trying to do that unwise "IP" method as taught against genuinely belligerent amatuers and you'll get SLAUGHTERED by anyone with skill and determination who gives you that single or double lapel grab and you try the method as taught in the IP
BTW my PC couldn't see the pix or whatever to start this thread but I have a link to a youtube video for it...
LONE KIMONO (KIMONO GRAB A)
TWIN KIMONO (KIMONO GRAB B)
I'll take a stab. TK was taught to me, as a double lapel grab, with the attacker pushing out. LK....I never learned as a pushout, however, it makes sense to me, to time your stepping back, with their grab. I view this tech/attack, as one attack, that is setting up another, ie: they grab you, holding your for a punch. Reason I said to try and time everything, is because IMO, its going to be hard to get a good extension, even if we're pinning the hand.
*off topic* Personally, I have a few other things that come to mind, for a single or double lapel grab, that look nothing like either of these techs.
*on topic* Seeing that we're trying to keep this thread somewhat Kenpo let dive into this with me asking....how do you do these techs?
I agree but again the methods of training this technique are horrifically flawed,therefore the lessons are similarly not properly grasped using the IP.There is too much that is not functional and too much not being addressed at even the basic level of functional instruction that is being ignored.The "hockey punch" is only hinted at,never dealt with.There's no method detailed to deal with a guy actually grabbing you with aggressive energy,actually throwing repeated punches,the guy transitioning to a 2 hand grab,and trying to sling you down,the guy going from a single lapel grab and punch to a tackle,and all the other super duper basic combos that happen in real fights but any method like the flawed IP totally ignores.
Off-topic response--Me too. I agree very much here.
On-topic reponse--I will put a video up on my Channel getting into the specifics of how we do this technique,but essentially we deal with the basic forms of attacks that spring from this scenario.It's EXACTLY THE SAME THOROUGHGOING FUNCTIONAL METHOD AS ALWAYS.We first gear up with protection, actually start with the scenario and the grab,and have the attacker attack and the defender defend at 1/4 power at first.We do it standing,at clinch range,up-seated (when one person is up,the other is seated) seated seated (both parties are seated) up-down (one party is standing,the other is on the ground) seated-ground (one party is seated,the other is on the ground) ground-ground (both parties are grounded) multiple attack variants of each,armed variants of each,armed multifight variants of each,escape from each,rescue (come to the aid of someone else) in each scenario and rescue and escape (the most overlooked aspect of SD imo wherein you rescue someone and YOU BOTH or YOUR GROUP escapes) of each is taught.It's lotsa fun every time.Lotsa sweat.Neeeeeveeeer boring.Always you learn more.
Believe it or not,we've found plenty of very functional ways to employ the hand pin but we tend to deal with the strike and the grab simultaneously.The utility of the most basic wristlocks are crucial here,but I find that combination striking with low line kicks and blows over the pinned hand along with scrambling pretty much is the answer.
True. Like we've said before, we could a) teach the IP tech and then explore something on a more functional level or b) go right to functional. IMO, either way is fine with me, but, we need to look at things beyond the IP.
It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that the consensus is that the things in the IP will always cancel out any potential counters, such as what you mention above. I'll disagree with that.
Ahh....looks like we were posting at the same time. What you described is pretty much where I was heading.
Interestingly, I was taught Lone Kimono as a cross lapel grab defense. I don't know if my teacher just liked it better but I'm fond of it as a cross lapel grab defense. I used it on a local in Iraq at a traffic control point.
I gotta echo the above posters in that I wouldn't use this sequence of movements against a straight grab. I don't see the tech in the ideal pahse canceling very many followups from the attacker. I perfer to turn the pining hand into a wristlock and follow up with palm strikes.
I would venture to say...
If you haven't broken the wrist and elbow of the attacker a quarter beat after his contact drives into your chest, and with that same motion shattered a couple of his teeth and cracked his jaw, then you never really learned the Ideal Phase basic moves.
You see, I missed once. Broke the wrist, teeth and jaw, jacked the guy up onto his toes getting the ribs to protrude into the path of the raking blow, but failed at getting the elobw to break... I forgot to cheat step rearward and draw him out of his tree before stepping back and pivoting with the rising uppercut under the elbow and jaw, hand pinned and turned into a zed-lock just before contact on the arm.
Also got this first move off against a MMA/BJJ cat who was snaking his left hand behind my left collar to start a choke. Missed both breaks that time, but broke the front teeth and a couple molars on the guy... elbow tension was wrong, so I just sprained his shoulder.
Luckily for me, no one had told me the ideal phase didn't work. Makes me wonder if its the IP thats flawed, or an individuals understanding of the intricate lessons involved in each phase progression.
It's the TRAINING that makes the difference.If you never sparred with this technique and still pulled it off in a SD scenario? Then chances are likely high that you're in that elite extra slim extra low percentile of people who have exceptional ability combined with having the "luck" of having unskilled attackers attacking you...or your ability significantly outstrips the ability and skill of your attacker.
Put another way...if you did what the traditional "IP" seems to hold to be the "training paradigm" (which is frankly zero sparring and therefore zero likely carryover into combat) with this technique and faced off against another trained person of equivalent ability who DID train functionally and thus has thousands and thousands of reps against resisting opponents in the execution of this technique? The results are likely to be dramatically less favorable.I am very glad that you were unscathed and I have respect for your opinions and your well written posts...but the fact remains that the functional training method is vastly superior to the nonfunctional IP.So even if you or others opine that the IP works? The FM works much better; so why would anyone elect to ride on a giant tortoise when The Star Trek Enterprise awaits?
I do enjoy these discussions and look forward to exchanging videos with you wherein we go into the specifics of how we teach each technique,and draw comparisons and contrasts.Why don't you put up a video and a link showing how you train this specific technique (which I was taught as Kimono Grabs A and B) and I'll put up mine? Hopefully we can learn from each other and collectively improve one another's training methods.Whaddya say?
The piece I think is a misnomer is the idea that all people train the ideal phase the same, treat the information the same, or even have the same information. It's an error in critical thinking to assume a shared phrase is a shared starting point.
I treasure the Ideal Phase, because of how I train it.. what the information means to me, and how I work with it. My next birthday will make 40 years of being at this. In that time, I too have trained in BJJ, Muay Thai, western boxing, etc. I have also been critical of standard teaching methods in kenpo. In fact, I'll venture to say most of the "product" out there is shyte. I'm sure there are people who think mine is, too.
HOWEVER... each time I went to Mr. P with a kvetch about the IP of some given technique being brutally flawed, he would open my eyes with some different way of looking at it... some way I had not yet percieved the information, or some bit of information that was lacking in my understanding of the IP. Big difference between saying "kenpo, as a system, is flawed", as opposed to "my understanding of the kenpo system is incomplete, and therefore my training and eprfomance are too."
I have been without camera and training padnah for several months now, focusing instead on stepping up to meet my families needs by growing my business. Got a camera just recently; now all I need is the training padnah. I will be glad to compare video notes with you. t cannot be my top priority, at this time, as I just signed a lease on a new practice location a few weeks back, and now gotta get bodies on the bench.
As soon as I get a body to bang on, and a moment to bang on them that doesn't sabotage the marketing efforts of a half-days time, I'll be in knee-deep.
The wrist break...yup, I see that possibly happening, if you pin correctly, and turn. The arm break/dislocation...sure. Not seeing the cracked jaw, unless you move that handsword up to the face, from the throat.
And of course, everyone will train stuff differently, so sure, its a bit of an assumption to say that everyone trains the same. My view is simply, the IP works fine, if everything is ideal. OTOH, I've seen threads with people, myself included, that the IP is a base, and we shouldnt be concerned with pulling off an IP, but instead, using parts of the tech.
Is the IP tech assuming that when the person grabs, the attacker will fully extend their arms? If the person grabs and is going the pull in/push out, but not fully extending their arms, we're probably not going to get the break.
Here is a clip from Vee Arnis Jitsu, that IMO, makes many good points.
So, in the beginning, we have a discussion of a tech, in which part of the defense is a groin hit. Yet when David James is attacking the student, the groin shot isn't there, due to the nature of his attack. He then, at another point in the demo, sweeps the guy he's choking, down and continues to apply a choke.
This, IMO, (and I may be wrong, as I dont like to speak for others)is a good idea of what Ras is talking about. IMO, its rare that we see the other possibilities of what could happen during the defense. Instead, we see compliant partners.
Way to prompt discussion, Michael.
The opening move is often taught as an upward block. This is to get new students accustomed to the uplifting of the arm as part of the answer to the inital assault. An upward blocking movement starts with a rising uppercut, palm facing your own face. Up, under the bottom the the jaw. How do we get the jaw to present? Some buncha steps before the move. When pushed, pull = jujitsu 101.
If the attacker pushes with any sort of aggression -- I mean, like he's really pissed off and is out to hand you your *** -- there is plenty of rearward driving force to ride. Step back with your right foot about 1/2 a horse stances deptha rearward, before LUNGING back with the left into the RNB. Pin, anchor, and YANK the guy back with you, and watch what happens to the tip of his chin as his body adapts to the momentum you just added through the acceleration step. Raise the uppercut into the jaw, and use the same movement to hyper-extend the arm if its straight, or roll his elbow across his midline in a bent position if not (shoulder manipulation). Either will permit you to make solid contact to the mandible as you pass through that point of contact.
The drag against the arm, either skyward or accross the midline, will force the ribs to present for the hammer of backfist that passes that point of contact. The same move that clears the arm, open the elipse a bit, and make it a raking inward hammerfist. Take the temple, mandibular hinge, side of the bridge of the nose and spin his head with it, whatever. The return path to the chop should be off a teardrop that loads the chop high, to descend into the next target.
Needing to chop up means you failed to control your attackers posture and position.
I've always done this as a rising (upward) forearm strike.
I'll work that.
I always teach the backfist. Wasnt thinking about the hammerfist to the head, prior to striking down on the arm.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, so hopefully you can clarify for me.
Reading the last few posts, I get the impression that you're saying that this technique is perfectly fine to do in the IP. But in this thread, I get the complete opposite read.
As for the clip that I posted...I posted that simply for reference. We saw a tech being discussed, which included a groin shot, yet once some pressure was applied, that groin shot went right out the window.
this is why I usually take the stance against dropping the IP techniques.Although, it has to make sense, the onus is on me to find this stuff through hard work and constantly sharpenening the sword. How much would be lost if I misunderstood things so much that I created something immediately superior looking but bereft of content in the long run.. Thank you Dr.Dave. I 'find' stuff like this all the time as I delve more into the basics and training. Sometimes even more often when I practice them slow enough to see but keep the intent of the lines of force involved. Great stuff!!!
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