IP Techniques: Do We Need Them?

[ATACX GYM]

Doc got his bb from someone.........
steve sanders got his BB from someone......
thomas lapuppet got his bb from someone.......


that dog doesnt hunt on planet reality, and yeah, one retarded statement can and in your case DOES render anything else out of you irrelevant. To me at least

If Stephen King, who is an undisputed master of his craft came out and said he was a 9-11 truther, that little bit of crazy would ruin him for me, pretty much forever.

Thats why i am no longer a Jesse Ventura fan

so yes, this latest (centainly not the first time, more like the 101st time you have done it) playing of the race card from you is the straw that has broken this camels back

you are boring, and exceedingly long winded. And whatever skill you claim to have (even tho no one has ever heard of you) is hidden under 14 layers of ego, chest thumping, crazy racist crap.

Good bye.

Dont bother responding cuz you are going to the iggy list and i wont see it.

Exceptions don't prove the rule,Twin Fist.

W.E.B. DuBois got his Ph.d. from someone (Harvard),but racism and segregation was still the law of the land...and Black people as a whole were rigorously denied education.

Susan B.Anthony could read and write and asserted herself strongly,but women still couldn't vote.

General MacArthur and Richard Marcinko were/are hellacious warriors,but the Armed Forces were still lagging behind in material,tactics,and mindset in comparison to them.

Let's turn it another way:

Doc DID get his BB from Mr.Parker...AND STILL FELT THE NEED TO FOUND THE B.K.F. Unless you're inferring that Doc is a complete idiot,he must have had not just good and solid but immediate and overwhelming reason to conceive structure and launch the B.K.F. And Sijo Muhammed must have had equally compelling reason to join and help promote such an organization.Thomas LaPuppet--who my Uncle met and introduced me to--had every reason to like Doc and specifically told my uncle that "those soul brothers" are "doin it right" in reference to the BKF. Everyone you cited SUPPORTED THE IDEA OF THE BKF...INCLUDING MR. PARKER. Like I said...if I told a joke? The joke would be on YOU. But I don't need to because every time you post,you make people who have brainpower turned ON laugh at your preposterous illogic.

Yep.Your brain is still off. I'm responding to your post anyway because--since your brain stays on the "DEPOWERED" list--you haven't realized that when I respond to your POSTS,I'm really not addressing your PERSON. It became very clear from the first post you made that you're of the PDL--PERMANENTLY DOOFUS LEGION--so I took to responding to any reasonable intellect that might have suffered the misfortune of being stained by the concentrated ludicrousness that your posts incarnate.

Sooo...in the self-contained time warp of your mind,there wasn't a Civil Rights Movement? Doc,LBJ,Susan B. Anthony,Thaddeus Stevens,Rosa Parks,Medgar Evers,The Freedom Riders,Vietnam vets,any and all freedom fighters of whatever race anywhere from any time who opposed injustice and unfairness...these people aren't heroes to you? Well,on the REAL planet Reality,Twin Fist? There WAS a Civil Rights Movement. Thaddeus Stevens and the Radical Republicans ARE heroes. Susan B. Anthony--superheroine extraordinaire--DID help to usher in a staggering change which took huge courage. And Doc showed his heroic side because he DID co-found the BKF without which Black people COULD NOT participate in or get a fair shake in martial arts tournaments. You clearly don't reside on the same planet as the rest of us--The REAL planet REALITY--wherein the last 2 centuries (including Reconstruction and the heroics of the 99th Pursuit Squadron and the 108th Tank Battalion) really happened.


You just helped me to understand why your posts so consistently have zero to do with the empirical real world,logic,sanity,or anything else worthwhile.You've ensured that you hit the OFF button on your brain before every post and then you post from Planet Idjit.Now it all makes sense.Thanks for the reveal.

Everyone else? With the continued absence of Twin Fist from this conversation,we may proceed apace with actually getting good and positive and wonderful things said,done and understood. This is a momentous day.

 

[Twin Fist]

So, to continue the topic.

one could liken the Ideal phase to kata training.

not directly combat training, but still an important and VITAL part of the process.

no martial art, and certainly not one as complex and multi layered as Kenpo is, and EPAK in particular, can be really learned without a multi stage approach to learning.

 

[ATACX GYM]

No,the IP is NOT like kata training. Kata training,as I understand it,is essentially and at once: 1) a library of techs for belt ranks which provides practitioners means of solo training and prevents an art from passing out of existence 2) A yogic exercise melding mind,body and spirit into martial movement and providing health benefits thereby 3) A possible repository for EVERY tech of an ENTIRE martial art.

According to Doc,in this post right here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1397036&postcount=122

and the post of Doc's preceding it on page 8 of this thread,the IP is AN ABSTRACT IDEA which was passed out via Big Red to commercial Kenpo guys who were supposed to THINK and craft THEIR OWN FUNCTIONAL responses to self-defense scenarios using a combination of Mr.Parker's techs concepts etc. and their own techs,concepts,etc. then teach this amalgam to their students.

You were supposed TO THINK when using the IP...make functional responses that served the purpose of defeating whatever attack or whatever...and be enriched as a martial artist for the experience.

Unfortunately,the Motion Kenpo guys did NOT make functional techs.They taught some hodgepodge of dysfunctional crap to their students without challenging their students to think.To become functional and skilled. To perceive,employ and appreciate the principles of Kenpo in the employment of their techs and their lives.And the students just memorized the techs and thought that the techs in and of themselves ARE the IP.Not so.Too many of us conflated the TECHS with both the IDEA AND THE EXPRESSION of the IP.As soon as Doc said this,I got it. Boxing coaches use what is essentially the IP when they devise methods of slipping say the jab or blocking body shots and countering.The difference is? Boxing coaches actually go out and devise functional,workable drills for boxers to do which sharpen that skill set,and THEN have their boxers actually do precisely what they worked on in live,full fire sparring sessions. Motion Kenpoists don't do this.They don't craft functional responses and they don't spar.That's why their techs fail to achieve the specific desired goal,they can't fight with it successfully,and that's why they can't justify their actions even on an intellectual level...because there is only one place that their actions are beneficially rewarded: MONETARILY.

 

[Thesemindz]

No,the IP is NOT like kata training. Kata training,as I understand it,is essentially and at once: 1) a library of techs for belt ranks which provides practitioners means of solo training and prevents an art from passing out of existence 2) A yogic exercise melding mind,body and spirit into martial movement and providing health benefits thereby 3) A possible repository for EVERY tech of an ENTIRE martial art.

According to Doc,in this post right here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1397036&postcount=122

and the post of Doc's preceding it on page 8 of this thread,the IP is AN ABSTRACT IDEA which was passed out via Big Red to commercial Kenpo guys who were supposed to THINK and craft THEIR OWN FUNCTIONAL responses to self-defense scenarios using a combination of Mr.Parker's techs concepts etc. and their own techs,concepts,etc. then teach this amalgam to their students.

You were supposed TO THINK when using the IP...make functional responses that served the purpose of defeating whatever attack or whatever...and be enriched as a martial artist for the experience.

Unfortunately,the Motion Kenpo guys did NOT make functional techs.They taught some hodgepodge of dysfunctional crap to their students without challenging their students to think.To become functional and skilled. To perceive,employ and appreciate the principles of Kenpo in the employment of their techs and their lives.And the students just memorized the techs and thought that the techs in and of themselves ARE the IP.Not so.Too many of us conflated the TECHS with both the IDEA AND THE EXPRESSION of the IP.As soon as Doc said this,I got it. Boxing coaches use what is essentially the IP when they devise methods of slipping say the jab or blocking body shots and countering.The difference is? Boxing coaches actually go out and devise functional,workable drills for boxers to do which sharpen that skill set,and THEN have their boxers actually do precisely what they worked on in live,full fire sparring sessions. Motion Kenpoists don't do this.They don't craft functional responses and they don't spar.That's why their techs fail to achieve the specific desired goal,they can't fight with it successfully,and that's why they can't justify their actions even on an intellectual level...because there is only one place that their actions are beneficially rewarded: MONETARILY.

That's the problem bro. You're making too general an accusation here. Certainly some people fall squarely and exactly into this category. Martialtalk has a policy against fraud busting, but it's not hard to find kenpo videos on the YouTube where guys have clearly never practiced their techniques on the body under dynamic conditions, with intensity, against resistance, and combinations, and in motion, etc. etc. etc.

But you lump ALL motion kenpo under this category. Now, that means either you think that everyone who learned the EPAK system, or some reasonably similar variant, is a moron who never bothered to practice beyond the written material in an ideal scenario in the air; OR you lump all people who do bad kenpo together under the heading "Motion Kenpo."

The reality is far more nuanced than that my friend. There are bad schools, and bad students. There are bad methods, and bad drills. There are bad kenpo practitioners. But there are also good Kenpo practitioners. There are many Kenpo stylists like you who see the IP material for what it is and evolve beyond it. And that process can take a lot of different paths.

I learned a style of kenpo taught by a guy who trained with Parker and the Tracy's. The techniques are largely EPAK techniques, although not usually the most recent and updated version. There are some of the hard principles taught by Doc, although not as many, and there are some of the conceptual principles taught in EPAK, although not as many. That guy put his own spin on it, then taught it to my instructor who put his own spin on it, then taught it to me, and I put my own spin on it. I teach what I believe works, based on my experience. And my students spar with kenpo techniques, and karate style sparring, and ground fighting, and weapons and do a ton of dynamic drills. My karate works, which I've told Doc before. And my method works. But I also consider it a style of Motion Kenpo.

It's based on the EPAK system. It's based on combat applicable motion. It's based on motion concepts, like relationships of circles and angular footwork and complex paths of motion. I understand that there are other methods. Doc's method is based on specific bio-physical actions and structures. We address anatomy, but not nearly to the same degree he does even in his most basic classes. We focus on other things. But the method works. I've used it. Others have used it. I've trained with artists from many other styles, and my method does just fine. But I still consider it a Motion based method.

That's where you're going to lose people Ras. It's ok to be proud of what you do. It's ok to want others to do better. But when you tell them that their method is ****, they probably won't hear the rest of what you say. And while many of them do practice ****, not all of us do. There are many ways to skin cats. There is only one art of the sword.

You're arguments aren't wrong, but you are generalizing them to ALL motion kenpo. Ask Doc if he knows anyone who practices a style of Motion Based kenpo that works. I think you may be painting with too broad a brush here. You mention boxing coaches. For many of us, the Ideal Phase technique is like the Ideal Phase Jab/Cross combination. It exists as an abstract concept, and boxing coaches need to know that concept so that they can teach future boxers, but in combat the only Ideal Jab/Cross is the one that lands.


-Rob

 

[Twin Fist]

well said Rob, but some people are too busy trying to make sure everyone knows how awesome they are to actually LEARN anything

 

[MJS]

TF made, IMO, an interesting point when he mentioned kata and IP techs. Now, on the surface, if you look at kata, you'll see what Matt Thorton has said...a dead pattern, and yes, if all someone does, is just run thru the kata, with no purpose or reason, then yeah, IMO, its dead. But....if someone is making it alive and practical, then yeah, I can see use to it. FWIW, I do and teach kata. I am not as die hard as some.

So, how does this go with IP techs? If all you're doing with the techs is just going thru them, relaxed, then yeah, its no different than doing kata with no purpose behind it.

 

[MJS]

Regarding the motion Kenpo comments. I stole this from the KN. Had to paste the whole thing, as it seems you can link to a specific thing on the forum. Oh well...anyways....

A Sub-Level Four™ Self-Defense technique is uniquely different from Motion-Kenpo. A technique in Motion-Kenpo is, among other things, primarily a study of the effective use of “motion” in a combat scenario. Every hypothesis or technique theme is based and predicated on “motion.” Additionally, It does not explore hands on application of holds, hugs, locks, and seizures.
A Sub-level Four™ technique is a case study of many different complex sciences presented in a practical application default technique modality, that reaches well beyond its obvious immediate effectiveness. This “process” subsequently addresses long term goals and applications.
To this end through the entire first level of study, techniques are presented as “hard curriculum” with absolutely no exploration or adjustment of themes without instructor approval. This is not uncommon outside the bounds of loose structured Motion-Kenpo. In general, minor “tailoring” is only allowed to compensate for height or girth deficiencies. The proverbial Kenpo hypothesis “what if” is not allowed or entertained, and there are no Motion-Kenpo defined “re-arrangement concepts.”
The base or default technique execution is conceptually inclusive of minor variables without significant adjustment. Major variables are assigned different “Default Techniques.” These are things that cannot be seen by the uneducated eye. When executed properly, major benefit is attained because each individual technique functions on multiple levels, and lays the base foundation for even more advanced application of a theme allowing sophisticated “Destructive Modulation” at upper levels.
A technique teaches all the things listed below and additionally functions as a “mini” Taiji Chi-Gung form that may be practiced singularly without a partner to the same end without physical contact, when a partner is not available. A student is encouraged to study and explore body mechanic enhancing “chi,” and “chi” enhancing body movements, with as well as without a training partner.
Proper anatomical movement and internal energy co-exist hand in hand and one cannot be attained without the presence of the other. Done properly, they spiral upward together as long as you continue to practice, without age barriers. SL-4™ teaches immediate application of what the Chinese have traditionally waited years to explain to a very few.
It cannot be over emphasized, these are things that are not visible to the uneducated eye, and cannot be understood anymore than you would movements of any discipline not explained to you. Sub-Level Four™ techniques are absolutely workable and effective and there are no “throw away” techniques.
What is immediately discernable is when, at higher levels, a Control manipulation alternative might be to modulate destruction. This is what has prompted some to suggest, “It’s just contact manipulation,” or “They are just adding a manipulation to the technique.” Nothing could be further from the truth.
In fact a student is taught to execute the more destructive “Destructive Sequencing” first along with minor manipulations because full Control Manipulations require a much greater degree of skill and a higher physical commitment in training as well as practice. It is where the Ed Parker phrase “…to feel is to believe” manifests itself.
The top 25 things in SL-4 Kenpo™ techniques NOT in Motion-Kenpo
1. The science of proper breathing through a “Breathing Signature” to enhance short-term explosive power, and enhance the training of long-term internal energy.
2. Exploring the control and momentary movement, shifting and adjusting of your internal energy as well as your opponent’s for the purposes of enhancing your own strength while draining your opponent’s.
3. The application of internal energy for immediate effectiveness in short term scenarios, with the long-term goal of increased permanent and growing enhancement.
4. How the method and manner of execution enhances or detracts from the positive execution of all anatomical movement.
5. The limitations of anatomical structure, which is greater than its effective applications, therefore motion may be infinite, but its practical effective use is not.
6. How the proper placement and execution of “basics” can create a “natural barrier” and negate “street grappling” assaults within the framework of self-defense techniques, and counter the constant “forward pressure” of those attempting to seize or surround your torso.
7. How the proper execution and placement of the armatures away from the body may be executed in a manner that allows them to not be corruptible or manipulated.
8. How a simple adjustment in height can counter a “street grappler’s” change in height should he drop to attack your lower height zones.
9. How certain movements have an effect utilized in “Psychology of Confrontation Concepts” to enhance one’s “Mechanical Speed” by elongating the “Perceptual and Mental Speed” of your opponent.
10. How certain “Negative Physical Contact” enhances your own structural integrity and therefore can have a positive effect.
11. How to move energy from one side of your body to another location through the manipulation of armatures.
12. How to create a burst of energy to enhance your movements.

13. How to momentarily “short circuit” a person’s nervous system in conjunction with an energy drain to enhance our own action by “Completing the Circuit.”
14. How to manipulate human anatomy through, touching, pulling, pushing, striking, twisting, torquing, hugging, and locking.
15. Each technique emphasizes the shifting and transfer of body weight in conjunction with applications for maximum effectiveness with other components.
16. Explores and teaches “Negative and Positive Body” posture from multiple perspectives including but not limited to;
17. What postures opens specific cavities for effective destructive access.
18. What natural weapons and their method of execution will give you access and activation.
20. How the proper angles and associated anatomical posture function as a unit to virtually guarantee effectiveness.
22. What postures create a structural weakness in your opponent thereby virtually immobilizing him in many situations.
23. The location of nerve cavities and the order, posture and effects of sequential striking and what posture stifles or blocks his energy thereby weakening him and causing “Physical/Mental Disassociation,” (PMD). Sometimes called a “Technical Knockout” in sporting contests.
24. How the “Timing Signature” teaches the correct rhythm to “surge” energy and negate opponent body mechanics. 25. How the “Grappling Signature” sets your body mechanics during a technique to counter “street grapplers.”

So, as I said in my last post....if the MK guy is making things functional, fine. If not, well....

 

[Twin Fist]

TF made, IMO, an interesting point when he mentioned kata and IP techs. Now, on the surface, if you look at kata, you'll see what Matt Thorton has said...a dead pattern, and yes, if all someone does, is just run thru the kata, with no purpose or reason, then yeah, IMO, its dead. But....if someone is making it alive and practical, then yeah, I can see use to it. FWIW, I do and teach kata. I am not as die hard as some.

So, how does this go with IP techs? If all you're doing with the techs is just going thru them, relaxed, then yeah, its no different than doing kata with no purpose behind it.

glad you picked up on what i was getting at.

kata can be a dead exercise, where you just learn a series of moves, like the IP training

or

it can be alive and vibrant and reactive to the realities of the self defense environment.

BUT

you need the Ideal phase to learn the technique BEFORE You try to adapt it to what if's

and

you need to learn the moves in a kata BEFORE you can make it a living exercise.

for a good exampleof this, look at Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo katas

they are designed to be a kata, AND a two person drill for defending and counter attacks

 

[MJS]

glad you picked up on what i was getting at.

kata can be a dead exercise, where you just learn a series of moves, like the IP training

or

it can be alive and vibrant and reactive to the realities of the self defense environment.

BUT

you need the Ideal phase to learn the technique BEFORE You try to adapt it to what if's

and

you need to learn the moves in a kata BEFORE you can make it a living exercise.

for a good exampleof this, look at Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo katas

they are designed to be a kata, AND a two person drill for defending and counter attacks

Thanks. I said this in other threads, but its worth saying again. I teach the IP techs. I do so because I have to. I dont own my own school, so I have to do what everyone else does. Even if I did own my own place, I'd still teach them. Why? Because I like to use them as a foundation, some sort of building block. But, I stress to my students that they shouldnt be bound by them. People talk about grafting from on IP to the next, to the next and so on and so on. This is fine and dandy, but its not what I'm trying to stress. I'm teaching them (the IPs) and then I toss in some other situations, in hopes that the students will start thinking outside of the box.

Ras is going right to a FM model to get from A to F. I'm teaching the IP, not harping on it for an eternity and then trying to move to a more functional, more spontaneous training environment. I'm going from A to F too, just taking a different route.

The same with kata. I spent an entire class, having them go over 1 kata. I used Short 2 as my model, and I gave them a bunch of examples, off of the first move alone. I then had them work in groups, trying to figure out and come up with varous responses to the other moves. Afterwards, I had everyone show off what they found. I got alot of positive feedback, and most importantly, I made them think! Sure, we could have them just run thru tech after tech, kata after kata, doing whats needed for their next belt, but whats that teaching them? IMO, not a hell of alot. LOL. Its one thing to go thru the moves, its another to really know what they're doing.

 

[ATACX GYM]

That's the problem bro. You're making too general an accusation here. Certainly some people fall squarely and exactly into this category. Martialtalk has a policy against fraud busting, but it's not hard to find kenpo videos on the YouTube where guys have clearly never practiced their techniques on the body under dynamic conditions, with intensity, against resistance, and combinations, and in motion, etc. etc. etc.

But you lump ALL motion kenpo under this category. Now, that means either you think that everyone who learned the EPAK system, or some reasonably similar variant, is a moron who never bothered to practice beyond the written material in an ideal scenario in the air; OR you lump all people who do bad kenpo together under the heading "Motion Kenpo."

The reality is far more nuanced than that my friend. There are bad schools, and bad students. There are bad methods, and bad drills. There are bad kenpo practitioners. But there are also good Kenpo practitioners. There are many Kenpo stylists like you who see the IP material for what it is and evolve beyond it. And that process can take a lot of different paths.

I learned a style of kenpo taught by a guy who trained with Parker and the Tracy's. The techniques are largely EPAK techniques, although not usually the most recent and updated version. There are some of the hard principles taught by Doc, although not as many, and there are some of the conceptual principles taught in EPAK, although not as many. That guy put his own spin on it, then taught it to my instructor who put his own spin on it, then taught it to me, and I put my own spin on it. I teach what I believe works, based on my experience. And my students spar with kenpo techniques, and karate style sparring, and ground fighting, and weapons and do a ton of dynamic drills. My karate works, which I've told Doc before. And my method works. But I also consider it a style of Motion Kenpo.

It's based on the EPAK system. It's based on combat applicable motion. It's based on motion concepts, like relationships of circles and angular footwork and complex paths of motion. I understand that there are other methods. Doc's method is based on specific bio-physical actions and structures. We address anatomy, but not nearly to the same degree he does even in his most basic classes. We focus on other things. But the method works. I've used it. Others have used it. I've trained with artists from many other styles, and my method does just fine. But I still consider it a Motion based method.

That's where you're going to lose people Ras. It's ok to be proud of what you do. It's ok to want others to do better. But when you tell them that their method is ****, they probably won't hear the rest of what you say. And while many of them do practice ****, not all of us do. There are many ways to skin cats. There is only one art of the sword.

You're arguments aren't wrong, but you are generalizing them to ALL motion kenpo. Ask Doc if he knows anyone who practices a style of Motion Based kenpo that works. I think you may be painting with too broad a brush here. You mention boxing coaches. For many of us, the Ideal Phase technique is like the Ideal Phase Jab/Cross combination. It exists as an abstract concept, and boxing coaches need to know that concept so that they can teach future boxers, but in combat the only Ideal Jab/Cross is the one that lands.


-Rob

This is a TERRIFIC response,Rob...and I agree with practically everything you mention here. Except allow me to reiterate the very same thing that I've stated for many posts now:

If you stuff works? It's functional.Therefore I have zero practical self-defense differences with you.To me? The nuances are in the area of functionality.How dramatically a tech FAILED is NOT as important as knowing that it FAILED WHEN IT SHOULDN'T'VE HAVE.We know that the cure is FUNCITONAL TRAINING,so whatever happened to cause a tech to fail? It was directly due to a lack of functionality.So.Focus on how to make stuff WORK.So the nuances would be in that area.How WELL does it work? It WORKS,but can it WORK BETTER? The model T works.The Lexus works better. If it WORKS than we're cool. Remember,I speedily acknowledged that I was raised in the Motion Kenpo era too,but clearly my approach is the exact opposite of those who are dysfunctional. If you're functional,you're not following the training methods of Motion Kenpo that leads directly to dysfunction. You took the techs--which always worked--and devised a FUNCTIONAL TRAINING METHOD with them. I have ZERO COMPLAINT about that. Have at it and have fun and if we're in the same part of the country? Maybe we can workout together.

My focus centers specifically on functionality.Doc said that BIG RED was a business tool,a model,a "start up kit" for INSTRUCTORS to fashion functional ideal self-defense scenarios which combined the martial knowledge of these Motion Kenpo guys--who frequently came from other disciplines--with the techs and concepts of Mr.Parker.What wound up happening is that the Motion Kenpo instructors of that era eventually let BIG RED get sold to the students,and the students "just did what the book said to do,even if it did not work" [paraphrashing Doc].This right here is the demarcation line.If you took Mr.Parker's ideas,combined them with your own,AND THEY WORKED IN SELF-DEFENSE AND SPARRING? You did it right.You're FUNCTIONAL Motion Kenpo,which is what Mr.Parker wanted. If your IP techs don't do what they're advertised to do...that is DEFEND MYSELF AS THEY'RE TAUGHT...then there's a disconnect that's borne of either ignorance (you didn't know any better) or duplicity (you knew the stuff doesn't work but presented it as if it did). Both are rectified by Functional Training...which also connects you with the essential base of the intellectually rigorous concepts that spawned the IP in the first place.When you see Deflecting Hammer,you said that you spend very little time on the (dysfunctional) "traditional IP method" and instead move on to all those workable goodies that ARE FUNCTIONAL which you already mentioned.Yaaayyy you.You get it.

You did NOT make the rampant mistake that the DYSFUNCTIONAL Motion Kenpo guys did and still do, which was spawned by generations of Motion Kenpo instructors and misconstrued by both them and their students as a specific sequence of physically expressed techs vs a specific attack instead of a spring board to THINK ON YOUR OWN while using Mr.Parker's techs and concepts. Doc said Mr.Parker would ask:"How would YOU do it?" You had to show something that YOU did.AND IT HAD TO WORK.You showed and proved that your Motion Kenpo works.So does mine.Go team.

I clearly am not denigrating all of the Motion Kenpo crowd as a whole.I'm not telling other people that their style is ****. I'm specifically referring to the dysfunction that lead not only to the comprehensive misunderstanding that spawned the OP that subsequently spawned this multipage thread,but also the training methods which have plummeted Kenpo to near the basement of the martial arts world visavis effectiveness,when American Kenpo should CLEARLY be amongst the top tier martial science+arts on the planet. In my not so objective opinion,at any rate.Lol. Remember...if you took Mr.Parker's techs and concepts,added your own juice to it,AND IT WORKS AS INTENDED...THEN YOU ARE THE FUNCTIONAL "MOTION KENPO" THAT MISTER PARKER WANTED. Sijo Muhammad,my uncle who is my personal Grandmaster,and many other absolutely outstanding martial artists will rip your head off...and they're Motion Kenpo.FUNCTIONAL Motion Kenpo. Remember Doc said that Mister Parker would specifically blame THE TEACHERS if the students were dysfunctional.You get it.I get it.Lotsa people reading this thread get it.

But clearly most Kenpoists DON'T get it.Let's be real about that.They DON'T get it...for a variety of reasons.And unless those reasons change? They'll NEVER get it.And that's our fault,to an extent.We know that our stuff works as is and what we see from too many others doesn't. We don't have to BAD MOUTH people to make our point,all we have to do is keep on keepin on and make our presence heard seen and felt more widely...even if that means that we have to go to a tourney and wreck shop with FUNCTIONAL IKC techs.My crew might enter the IKC and do exactly that.But folks let's be honest adults and call a spade a spade.And don't back off of it.Cuz it IS a spade. People who think that I'm on some "look at how awesome" or "badass" I am trip? They don't get it...and never will until they open up their minds. My questions have been answered by almost an entirely organic development of my own on my martial path,andwithin this very thread by Doc,who is--to my knowledge--the ONLY guy on this board who still trains today and who trained DIRECTLY WITH Mister Parker during Kenpo's formative and developmental first 30-40 years or so. My position and his are roughly equivalent...I'm just newer to the boards and more blunt with my speech and have zero of the seniority and sway that Doc has.Lol.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Thanks. I said this in other threads, but its worth saying again. I teach the IP techs. I do so because I have to. I dont own my own school, so I have to do what everyone else does. Even if I did own my own place, I'd still teach them. Why? Because I like to use them as a foundation, some sort of building block. But, I stress to my students that they shouldnt be bound by them. People talk about grafting from on IP to the next, to the next and so on and so on. This is fine and dandy, but its not what I'm trying to stress. I'm teaching them (the IPs) and then I toss in some other situations, in hopes that the students will start thinking outside of the box.

Ras is going right to a FM model to get from A to F. I'm teaching the IP, not harping on it for an eternity and then trying to move to a more functional, more spontaneous training environment. I'm going from A to F too, just taking a different route.

The same with kata. I spent an entire class, having them go over 1 kata. I used Short 2 as my model, and I gave them a bunch of examples, off of the first move alone. I then had them work in groups, trying to figure out and come up with varous responses to the other moves. Afterwards, I had everyone show off what they found. I got alot of positive feedback, and most importantly, I made them think! Sure, we could have them just run thru tech after tech, kata after kata, doing whats needed for their next belt, but whats that teaching them? IMO, not a hell of alot. LOL. Its one thing to go thru the moves, its another to really know what they're doing.

What tends to shock people is that I'm an absolute stickler for forms. I show what the kata is intended to do...the theme behind each kata...and show how the physical techs reflect that theme.Then we set about working with them,just as you have,MJS. I already stated that you get a whole new appreciation for say Short 1 or 2 when you have knives,sticks,or a gun in your hand.Try that with someone else as a partner who's working with you in a reactive 2 man drill,but you and your partner are limited ONLY to he techs in Short 2.You'll be AMAZED at what's in there,if you haven't tried it.You'll have to guide your students a bit,and prompt them,and even step in and do a move or two FOR them to show them what they CAN do when they KNOW AND UNDERSTAND the Form,as opposed to regurgitate it as rote physical movements.I'm doing this again in my private class on Sunday.

 

[ATACX GYM]

well said Rob, but some people are too busy trying to make sure everyone knows how awesome they are to actually LEARN anything

And how would you know this about some people?

 

[Thesemindz]

I think we're basically in agreement Ras. I guess what I'm trying to convey is that I don't believe that Motion Kenpo as a method is inherently flawed. I think there are a lot of bad instructors. And that's sad. But there are a lot of bad instructors in every art. I just try to be a good one. And hope that along the way I can help others get better, and learn from those who have something to share.

I think there's a lot of amazing stuff in Motion Kenpo. But I've known instructors who never let their students practice any kind of dynamic or competitive "sparring" style drills because they said that those kinds of activities built bad habits. They advocated pure basic practice and technique repetition and grafting drills, with the ultimate goal being perfect technique execution and position control in every violent encounter. I have heard advanced ranks in these kinds of methods claim that they can respond to any attack with a kenpo technique, and graft perfectly to another kenpo technique in any possible what if scenario. I've known several advanced rank instructors who've held some version of this position.

Personally, I can't see it. Maybe it's just because I'm not good enough at karate. But I've always felt that if I had that degree of control over a violent situation than I wouldn't be in a fight in the first place. I can't see a situation wherein I don't need to react dynamically, move and cover and evade and counter. So I see the Motion curriculum as a way of organizing every possible lesson for every possible violent confrontation, with the ultimate goal of transcending techniques and spontaneously expressing your combined knoweldge and skill across all disciplines to respond appropriately to a dynamic situation.

I can't really say the first way doesn't work, only that I've never been good enough at karate to make it work. I can say the second way works. Just tonight I taught a color belt class where I had men and women circling and punching and kicking and grappling and evading and defending and countering. At speed, with contact. And they are able to dynamically apply the guard sweeps, striking combinations, and fighting concepts I've been teaching them. So I've taken civilians off the street and taught them how to fight and low and behold, we just spent an hour and a half fighting. And I'm constantly demonstrating to them how this technique is Alternating Maces, and that technique is Parting Wings and how you can counter an open side jab with a parry to Mace of Aggression.

Because for me, the ultimate goal has always been actual combat performance. We aren't memorizing patterns, we're learning how to fight. At least, my students are.

You know, I had a very similar conversation several years ago with James Hawkins over on KenpoTalk, only I was the one holding the position that the techniques were non-functional and he had the position that they were. I actually have a lot of respect for that guy, he knows what he's talking about. I think we could probably have this argument all day. In the end, what makes it functional, or not, is whether or not you are actually using it.

Those instructors I know who didn't let their students spar? One reason, it teaches them to turn their backs to their opponents. I call that bad instruction. Sparring doesn't teach that. If anything, it teaches you not to turn your back on your opponent. Because he will hit you there. But only if you actually practice where students can hit each other in the back. If you aren't, you aren't practicing a real fighting art. You are practicing a sport, or a tradition, or a dance. But if you can't stomp on someone's face, it isn't real combat.

That doesn't mean every drill is full street. Sometimes we're just hitting the pads, or practicing chi sao. But our students are taught real fighting. So they learn not to turn their back. Sure, new students turtle up and turn away, but they learn how to fight through that. By fighting through it.

I've taught a fully functional system. I had a bunch of students with different fighting backgrounds who weren't interested in learning "kenpo" so much as learning "fighting." So I built my classes around the lessons in the Motion system, but left the actual curriculum out. Just basics practice, fighting techniques, and dynamic drills. Now I teach in another guy's American Kenpo school, so I teach all that stuff with the Motion curriculum. Because these students are there to learn American Kenpo, and get belt ranks, and maybe be instructors themselves someday. It's a different environment, so I teach a different method.

I wonder just how pervasive the problem of bad kenpo is. I mean, obviously there is a lot of bad kenpo. Technique demonstrations, which are presumably people at least trying to do their best, where students are bouncing off their opponents with sloppy stances and weak basics. Sparring footage where the students just move straight in and straight out and trade ineffective strikes while being constantly battered by their opponent's equally ineffective strikes. Schools where the students never practice their techniques on the body or spar.

I honestly don't know how you could teach karate without any physical contact. Too much is only really learned through physical interaction with a resisting opponents. But I've known of schools, kenpo schools, where this was the practice.

But how many of those can there really be? I mean, how many kenpo schools don't teach basic boxing, or practice bag work, or drill their basics, or spar? I know there used to be a lot where there was no practice of groundfighting, but that's changing. How many no contact kenpo schools can there really be? I have to think that even most of the kenpo guys who's videos are just them practicing completely static Ideal Phase techniques spend a significant portion of their mat time on dynamic application. Don't they? Isn't it normal to discuss angles, and anatomy, and bio-physical response?

That's how I learned kenpo. Maybe I was just lucky. But I have to think that I'm not the exception. I went to Speakman's kenpo camp a million years ago and the kenpo students there seemed to know what they were doing. Although admittedly most of the seminars were devoted to technique practice on the body, which was mostly just standing still while somebody pounded you with a kenpo striking combination. Now that I think of it, we didn't do much spontaneous stuff in the kenpo seminars, mostly just pattern work, although we did do more dynamic stuff in the Benny Urquidez and Gokor Chivichian seminars.

Now you've got me wondering. Is kenpo really that bad off? Or does it just seem that way because of our limited perspective? All the local kenpo schools I know are great, but they also come from the same root, so maybe that doesn't mean anything.

I know the Kaju guys are starting to struggle with this in their community. I guess some of the old school think the practice has become increasingly more commercialized and less rigorous. So now they're having a bit of an identity crisis. Kajukenbo has always been kenpo's older, meaner brother. And now some feel it's straying from its own "funtional" roots.

Is it really that endemic? Is there a real risk that some kenpo schools will follow the new wave TKD model of martial arts themed "community centers" where adults and children can play karate side by side in pretty new outfits with flashy patches and shiny weapons and hefty monthly membership fees? I've always thought of kenpo as a true war art. Hitting people in the back and then kicking them when they're down. Punching someone in the groin and then ripping through their face with your open claw. That's the art I teach.

Is kenpo really so lost? Or is it just that the really hard workers don't spend time defending their method on the internet? It always comes back to the instructors. If the art is a failure, it is only and always the fault of bad instruction.

In the end, the only answer I see is to go back to class. Train more. Train harder. I teach my students that there are no shortcuts, that repetition is the mother of all skill. So when I doubt my method, I get on the floor and practice it. Then I learn where I am right, and where I am wrong.

“While the schools remain apart in thought and styles, they are bound together by the practice of sparring, which is the only standard value in the sport recognized by all who are responsible for advancing the true art of karate.”

Sihak Henry Cho
Korean Karate, Free Fighting Techniques
​

-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

So, to continue the topic.

one could liken the Ideal phase to kata training.

not directly combat training, but still an important and VITAL part of the process.

no martial art, and certainly not one as complex and multi layered as Kenpo is, and EPAK in particular, can be really learned without a multi stage approach to learning.

For a while I wanted to quit calling them Self Defense Techniques and rename them something else like Coordination Exercises. I don't really see them or practice them as actual fighting techniques in whole, although they all contain actual fighting techniques. In the end, I just use the nomenclature everyone else is generally familiar with, even though I only find the term marginally accurate.

Sure, you can really defend yourself with some of the techniques, almost as they exist in the Ideal Phase. Delayed Sword. Lone Kimono. But come on, Circling Windmills? As a "self defense technique" that's a joke. As a mini-set, or a targeting drill, or a pattern exercise, or a movement activity, or pivoting practice sure. But as a "self defense technique?" I don't care how good you are. You can't do that technique in full as written. But that doesn't make it useless. Or even, to my mind, non-functional. I just assign it a different function.

I do think of the techniques as similar to kata, in the sense that they are patterns to practice with lessons to teach. Just really short, two person, interactive kata. Or drills. Or exercises. Or whatever else you want to call them.


-Rob

 

[Twin Fist]

exactly Rob

there are a bunch of epak techniques that i dont think i would ever use. or COULD ever use at my limited level of ability.

but that just means i need to practice more i guess. Cuz i know there is some goodness in there somewhere...lol

 

[ATACX GYM]

Circling Windmills,Broken Rod,Ram and the Bear,these techs...are absolutely horrible in their old skool articulation and are part of the more than 75% of the current and old skool Motion Kenpo IP which are utterly anus.However,taking those techs and making them functional IS OUR JOB.Mr.Parker tasked us with this very specific objective when BIG RED was designed to allow us subsequent Motion Kenpo guys to combine what we know with what Mr.Parker showed to reach our own FUNCTIONAL conclusion.

My Circling Windmills deals with multiple strikes,grabs,clinches,weapons,etc. like all my techs do.I can outright fight with my version of Circling Windmills. And btw about 30 years ago I came to the working hypothesis that many of the EPAK techs I learned were designed at once for single fights AND multifights...for persons of various size,strength,etc. So a small woman who's fit but weighs say a buck 10 facing off a 6'3" man twice her size may need the entire arsenal of a single EPAK tech to put him away and/or escape...especially if the assailant is armed and launched a surprise attack first.

In 2006 an ex-student of mine...a former member of The 5 footers...repulsed a would-be rapist who towered over her at 6'3" and about 240. He had the advantage of a surprise attack AND he had a knife.Since the attack happened in the early morning hours in a parking structure as she was going to her car,she had no help whatsoever to rely on.As he was trying to lift her skirt and pull her panties down,she used a knife disarm of ours which blends a outside block,a Kino Mutai bite,a Claw,and a finger and wristlock which shocked him into releasing the knife.The disarm also leaves you in possession of the knife so she smoothly used it to counterstrike with.She cut him twice but he managed to batter the knife away from her and knock her down again.He tried to kick her while she was down there but our CAPOEIRA training allowed her the massive movement arsenal to elude most of his attacks and denude them of power.He grabbed her and dragged her screaming squirming and striking back by the 3rd floor elevator which is a secluded and dark area at that time of night. She raked his face and he pinned her arms.They were against the wall now.She told me that what saved her here was again capoeira's vocabulary of movement combined with her incessant offense and basically her total resistance and will to survive.She kept moving and he dragged her to the ground where she transitioned from esquivas to negativas to vingativas to wrestling scrambles and even a partial Granby Roll which is also in capoeira.She didn't escape but it kept forcing him to move to stop her.She bit his face (I think she said it was his cheek,IDR right now gotta go back to my notes) while simultaneously executing Breaking the Fetters from off of her back and a basic butterfly sweep and scramble.During the scramble he grabbed her as she sought to flee and from this point forward something happened that I have never in life heard of before or since.

She told me she reverted into "savage animal survival" mode and executed THE ENTIRETY of our version of Repeated Devastation.He STILL didn't release her.She executed THE ENTIRETY of our variant of Begging Hands.STILL didn't escape.He flailed at her hit her almost knocked her down again and hurt her shoulder.Seized the front of her shirt.She executed THE ENTIRETY of our variant of SNAKING TALONS (SNAKE AND TIGER TALON) and STILL didn't escape him.He was scraped up and could barely see out of one eye now because she poked the other with a snake strike,he was breathing hard and stung,but he still kept coming.He tried to tackle her,knocked her down,she swept him AGAIN,he reversed her,she scrambled to escape,he grabbed her leg,she stomped his grabbing hand and clipped his face with a almost fully executed ATACX GYM capoeira luta variant of S-Dobrado which looks sorta like this:

http://youtu.be/vjg0mnVh4zI

but way more combative (you'll see it once my lazy younger brother puts the video footage up),and he weakened even more.But not enough.Then he tried to tackle her again,she sprawled on him to almost NO avail (he was too big and strong),executed THE ENTIRETY of our version of BROKEN RAM,THE ENTIRETY of LOCKED WING...here he weakened again...cracked him with a uppercut,the ENTIRETY of 5 SWORDS,punted his nuts,then she [her words] :"double palm heeled his chin,I did the spin [she meant irimi] you showed us last month while grabbing the back of his hoodie and slammed his ****in face as hard as I ****in could into the wall,kneed him in the back of the head and slammed his face into the wall again until I felt him go kinda limp.Then I stepped back and kicked him in the back of the head and ****in stomped on that ****er's head until my leg burned and then I ran downstairs and called the police."

To get an idea of how much damage she did? Remember that all my techs include the R.D.L. concept of my Gym (Rock,Drop and Lock) and you're required to do every technique on both sides.Our 5 Swords is in reality 10 Swords with joint locks sweeps displacements pushoffs unbalancing takedowns throws and kicks thrown in.The police had to take this guy to the hospital for fractures...despite the fact thst he was on some kinda mind altering drug.That explains why he was able to keep coming despite the onslaught she unleashed on him.She moved away to Corona right afterwards,but before she did? I gave her her brown belt.To this day she's the highest ranking female student I ever had.

 

[Inkspill]

that must have been hell. I'm happy to hear she made it through. there could be other reasons as to why he kept going, but even a doped up psycho can be blinded, he might not feel it, but if he can't see he can't fight. (can't stand, can't breathe, can't see, can't fight.. quicksilver method for you karate kid 3 fans) I hope he went to prison and somebody took him out.

 

[ATACX GYM]

that must have been hell. I'm happy to hear she made it through. there could be other reasons as to why he kept going, but even a doped up psycho can be blinded, he might not feel it, but if he can't see he can't fight. (can't stand, can't breathe, can't see, can't fight.. quicksilver method for you karate kid 3 fans) I hope he went to prison and somebody took him out.

It was pretty rough for her...she moved to Corona.But she thrashed ole dude,Inkspill. Damaged his eye,multiple hairline fractures,and a few cracked teeth. And she's not afraid in Corona.She moved NOT because this experience was too much for her,but because she got a better job offer.Lol. Her assailant got a cold stretch in the pen because this wasn't his first assault.Think he has 10 more years before he's eleigible for parole.

Lolol my manz Inskpill quoted THE QUICKSILVER METHOD.That was sooo funny!

 

[Thesemindz]

As a brief aside, I'm a big believer in the quicksilver method. I teach it to my students. If he can't stand, or can't breathe, or can't see, he really CAN'T fight. I think that's a great approach.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

Of course, we also train to be able to fight when WE can't stand or breathe or see.


-Rob