IKCA Karate Connection.

Discussion in 'Kenpo - (EPAK) Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate S' started by searcher, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. searcher

    searcher Senior Master

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    Just wanted to know what you all think of the IKCA and Mr. Sullivan?

    Does anybody here train with or belong to the IKCA?

    Just wanting to know what you all think. Out of curiosity.

    Thanks ahead of time.
     
  2. Big Pat

    Big Pat Orange Belt

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    I follow the IKCA system and renewed my Kenpo training with it. It reminds me of Mr. Parker's Chinese Kenpo that I studied in the 70's. You can run a search here at Martialtalk (IKCA, Distance learning,or Mr. Sullivan, etc) for the various threads.There is also great information at the IKCA website. Mr. Sullivan in one of Mr. Parker's early Black belts and can truly say, "Been there, done that" in Kenpo. Try it you might like it. It will at the very least give you an insight into what Kenpo is all about.

    EKP RIP
    Big Pat
     
  3. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    I have seen him via videos over the computer, and could say that he comes across as a warm, and genuine person. That does count when it comes to teaching, and the idea of trimming the system down does make sense in terms of learning self defense skills. The more variations you add to deal with the same stimuli, the longer it will take your brain to filter through and come up with the movement to deal with the situation, when presented. I feel you should get live training, and use the videos to compliment your training. Plus, I like the EPAK system's way of laying out the material. It gives one a good place to start when formulating a response to an attack--Kenpo is definitely practical, and logical, and can fit with any system.
     
  4. Dark Kenpo Lord

    Dark Kenpo Lord Brown Belt

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    1. I believe you should have posted this question in the General section.

    2. Are you asking about the material or just the IKCA in general?


    DarK LorD
     
  5. Dark Kenpo Lord

    Dark Kenpo Lord Brown Belt

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    Trimming the system down doesn't make it better for the brain to analyze the information, and I don't know why everyone wants to use that excuse instead of better training, see Pavlov's theory. Hell, I watched Ripley's and saw a dog that can do 500 tricks on voice commands.


    DarK LorD
     
  6. The Kai

    The Kai Master of Arts

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    Cuz, trimming it down makes it quicker to get your Black Belt and even easier to learn thru the mail
     
  7. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    :)
     
  8. searcher

    searcher Senior Master

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    I was wanting to know about the IKCA and its relation to EPAK. I wanted to know what everyone thought of Mr. Sullivan and his way of teaching. I have trained in the Okinawan and Korean martial for several years. I have some experience with EPAK, but most of my Kenpo experience is in the Hawaiian Kenpo area(Ryusaki style). I have been considering the use of the videos that the IKCA produces to supplement my past Kenpo experience, not as a means of learning the system.

    As for the "trimming" of the system and the gaining of rank, I already have enough in the way of rank and I am only looking for an increase in knowledge. Another black belt is not appealing to me. I do thank you all for your concern when it comes to gaining rank via the mail, but rest assured that I am not looking for a rank gain.
     
  9. bdparsons

    bdparsons Black Belt

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    Searcher, if you want to find out about the IKCA, talk to the IKCA. Everything is above board, no hidden agendas. There are a lot of opinions on the board concerning the IKCA, for and against. I recommend going to the source and forming your own opinion.

    Tsk, tsk... A lot easier to take uninformed cheap shots than it is to try and speak intelligently, isn't it?

    As for you, "Doc", I'd be interested to know, if you have the respect for Mr. Sullivan you say you do, have you ever taken the time to talk to him about why he chose the path he did and listen to his reasoning? I suspect it's easier to act sanctimonious, throw rocks from the sidelines and smile when you meet him face-to-face.

    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
     
  10. Big Pat

    Big Pat Orange Belt

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    I fully agree with Mr. Parson. If you take the time to voice an opinion on a subject you can either do so being well informed or with a complete lack of knowledge. A person reveals their true self by their actions. As for Mr. Sullivan as stated before his is one of Mr. Parker's early Black belts and one of the few that he promoted to the rank of 7th. I do not believe that he or Mr. LeRoux have shown any disrespect to him in anyway. In fact, I am sure that Mr. Parker would have reviewed the IKCA system and talked to Mr. Sullivan and LeRoux about why they did the things they did. As a note, while the IKCA Black belt tape was being made Mr. Parker passed away. As a tribute to him they they both performed Mr. Parker's Kenpo Salute with a moment of silence to honor him. As for Mr. Sullivan's teaching ability, he has and continues to encourage and help many students, including one of Kenpo's greatest fighters, Mr. Steve (Sanders) Muhammed. Mr. Sullivan has stated many times that he enjoys teaching beginners for the simple fact that it is important to learn strong and correct kenpo fundamentals (basics). This is the true key to Kenpo and all martial arts.

    Sorry for being so long winded..
    :asian:
    EKP RIP
    Big Pat
     
  11. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    You are talking about simple S&R when you are referring to Pavlov (hear the bell and slobber), the research is not the same as responses to stimuli and reaction time. Hick's Law addresses this issue though. Hick found that when you increased the response to a stimulus from just one option to two options, reaction time increased 58%. (reference from Sharpening the Warrior's Edge by Bruce Siddle)

    So it's not really an excuse there is science behind it and I have yet to see or read any experiments that talk about how having more options to a single stimulus helps reaction time.

    But this is all beside the point of the topic...check it out and decide for yourself. I believe they have a free preview video (pay for shipping) that you can get that outlines the system.
     
  12. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    Thank you punisher73! Your response was exactly what I was going to say. However, I would like to add, just for thought, If we keep the system whole, rather than trimming it, and you keep repeating the same movement pattern, aren't you still doing the same thing? I mean, if you practice the movement pattern in one technique, and practice that technique 1000 times, isn't that ultimately the same as practicing 1000 "different" techniques, with the same pattern? So, if you really look at the IKCA they haven't really changed anything. Your getting the practice time, and the movement pattern down that the rest of the EPAK guys do. Having more tecniques doesn't make it better, Isn't that an argument that the EPAK camp made against the Tracy camp on this site, concerning the adding of another strike, but, keeping the same movement, and calling it a new technique? Sounds like the same thing going on here, IKCA is getting slammed for being leaner.
     
  13. The Kai

    The Kai Master of Arts

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    Actually I've seen the tapes, I know the process. Uninformed, no just don't beleive in the product!~
    As fas as it goes it weould'nt really classify Steve Muhammed as a student so much any more!
     
  14. Kenpodoc

    Kenpodoc 2nd Black Belt

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    Mr. Sullivan was one of Mr. Parkers early students and remained loyal and trained with him to the end of Mr. Parker's life. He never intimates that he is teaching EPAK but his system will certainly teach you to move well and likely give you insight into any other system you have studied. Ideally live instructors are best but video can be an additional resource.

    Many people make the mistake of thinking that the techniques are the core of Mr. Parker's system when i believe that in reality they were an attempt to create a system by which others could pass on at least the basics of what Mr. Parker was able to teach personally. Much of what Mr. Parker could do and teach was incorporated into the techniques but some information just could not make it into a simple list of techniques.

    "As for you, "Doc", I'd be interested to know, if you have the respect for Mr. Sullivan you say you do, have you ever taken the time to talk to him about why he chose the path he did and listen to his reasoning? I suspect it's easier to act sanctimonious, throw rocks from the sidelines and smile when you meet him face-to-face." - Bill Parsons

    Dr. Chapel and Mr. Sullivan have known each other for roughly half a century. I suspect that they have talked. They have chosen different paths. Both have my respect and their feelings for each other are their business and not mine.

    respectfully,

    Jeff
     
  15. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Good point!! We'll certainly get different thoughts on the 'less is better/more is better' debate. If we looked at how many techs. are included for a right punch, we would find quite a few. Now, add in the extensions. If we're doing tech. "A", and it goes as planned, great. If it does not, then we have another option...the extensions and other techs.....to fall back on. I agree with your statement that having more does not always make it better. While everyone may not agree, speaking for me only here, I'd rather have a few things that I can fall back on and do them great, than have a bunch of things that I can only do 50%.

    Mike
     
  16. searcher

    searcher Senior Master

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    Thanks for the advice. I contacted the IKCA shortly before I wrote my last post. So far they seem to be on par with what the positives have had to say. I understand that everyone has their opinion and I want to hear them all. I have always tried to keep an open mind and draw my own opinions from personal experience. I hope that you will all keep the good posts coming.
     
  17. Blindside

    Blindside Senior Master

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    I have met in competition members from, or visited in person 4 schools that teach the IKCA curricullum. I hate to say it, but they were all sub-par to average in quality. My impression was that the techniques were fine but the basics were lacking. Too be fair though, that is a common critique of kenpo schools and four schools is a pretty small sample size.

    It may be fine for a martial artist who already has a decent base, but I am skeptical of bringing someone through from a beginner stage. I actually recommended this program to one of our brown belts who was going to be moving frequently over the next several years, but that was because I knew her foundation was already solid.

    Lamont
     
  18. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    Good for you, keep that frame of mind! That's an important quality to grow as a person over all.
     
  19. Dark Kenpo Lord

    Dark Kenpo Lord Brown Belt

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    Hmm, everyone keeps bringing Hick's law into the picture everytime they want to cut or delete from the original. Take a video game for instance, when you first start you have no idea what's going to happen, as you continue to play your response time actually gets better, that's why you're able to continue the game to the next level, and hopefully, get to the end.

    The IKCA program is cut short for a reason, not because they wanted to trim it down to lean and mean.

    DarK LorD
     
  20. Seabrook

    Seabrook Black Belt

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    Good analogy Clyde. That is so true. When someone plays a video game (and get addicted to it), they first start by losing rather quickly. Before long, kids have "solved" the game, and they are on to another game...I like it!

    Jamie Seabrook123
     

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