I need some help, some info, please.

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My biggest issue with it was that it drew my own focus, and resulted in me being open to kicks (and uppercuts, couldn't easily block those). Now naturally that would change with practice, but as something to teach someone without any martial experience, they could very easily be so absorbed on that that they forget to focus on the rest of the body as well.

Also as a "1 technique" (that was the language I believe you used the last time I saw you post about it as well) it wouldn't work if the point is to then go into grappling, because then you need to teach them grappling as well. The best use I could see for it is to help a grappler that's weak at closing the distance from mid to close range. For them, assuming that it works well, it could be really useful, but that's a rather limited group of people.

I just realized that we are completely off topic...I may make another thread in the morning to discuss the technique.

 

[Buka]

You are describing some kind of straight, vertical fist punch reinforced with the other hand? Sounds unusual. And difficult. How is the reinforcing hand held? Palm up or palm down? Firmly gripping with the thumb wrapped around, or with the thumb alongside the fingers?

Palm down. With the thumb alongside the fingers. However, it was taught to me that whichever works best for you is what you should do. It feels just plain wrong with the palm up, to me. Same thing with the thumb wrapped around. And with the thumb wrapped around it - t not only feels weaker, it seems to inhibit my forward movement and effective reach.

By the way punching or pushing should be sitting into your stance. You weight is in your hips which go backwards when you lean forwards.

I'll have to try that. So far, the way I've been playing with it is to have my hips feel the same way they would feel if you were breaking into a sprint from a standing position.

At 47 seconds, you see the reinforced punch. Please note this is not my video, and I will say only that I would perform the kata this way. However, it does illustrate the reinforced punch you noted.

Please note the 'obvious' bunkai for this punch is simple - a reinforced punch. The stance is zenkutsu-dachi, feet parallel and facing forwards, about shoulder-width apart, and in the Isshinryu tradition, heel-toe alignment, rather than the deeper stances of other styles of karate.

Note also that the punch does not generate tremendous force from the hips; it is a short-stroke punch, designed for close quarters. The left hand (in the kata) grasps the right hand just behind the thumb of the right hand, covering the right wrist in a palm-down position. The right elbow is held close to the body and does not extend as a 'normal' punch would; it moves a fairly short distance.

Note also that in the kata, it moves immediately into an elbow strike in an upwards direction with the same right arm that just did the punch. These two are linked for a reason; the elbow strike develops from the reaction to the reinforced punch. One might infer that the reinforced punch is not a 'put away' punch.

Advanced bunkai would be difficult to explain in writing; but suffice to say that it exists. One example would be using the reinforced punch in a very small circular motion (nearly too small to see clearly) as a clearing movement to brush away an incoming strike and then immediately strike behind the attacker's punch, devastating when they have extended their arm and opened their ribs. Think coffee grinder movement.

Is this the movement you are asking about? If so, the best way to understand it is to experience using it and getting hit by it in training.

You know, Bill, that's pretty much it right there, only not with that foot forward. If I was doing it with the right hand, my right foot would be back. Kind of like the difference between a jab and a straight right (or left). But then again, as I seem to be falling in love with this punch - I haven't even thought about same side forward. Ten years ago this would have had me up all damn night, but I'm going to wait until tomorrow to play with it that way.

If I had seen that clip cold, I probably never would have had any interest in striking like that. I sometimes wonder what else I'm missing.

It sounds like the "rhino guard" to me. If you want to teach someone just 1 technique so he can use it to fight, the "rhino guard" will be a good one. Not only you can hide your head behind your arms, you can run toward your opponent and smash your "big fist" onto his face like a "rhino horn".

I've never tried this either. But I will. I see some interesting similarities to something we used to do to frustrate boxers when in a "okay, Karate man, box with me if you got the balls" mode.

There's a southern kung fu system called Iron Buddha that I had seen do this many years ago in one of their forms. The guy told me it was kind of a trademark of that style.
From what I remember, the one hand is in a vertical punch position with the other hand's palm making contact of the punching arm at the wrist/forearm area on the inside of the arm.

The position on this one is right over the wrist, but also partly on the base of the thumb.

Sounds like a great way to get socked in the face.

I can see that. But I don't believe it's a technique to be thrown in the middle of fisticuffs. Maybe it is, but it's not to me. I think of it as an opening move when facing someone. I've spent a good part of my life facing people (doorman, bouncer, guard in an arrest unit, police officer, protective services blah, blah, blah) I know how to open hard, but this is proving to have some really nice knock down power, or knock back power when you don't really want to injure them. And I'm having some fun with this. It's like a new toy, a nifty toy, too!

Hanzou, try thinking of it this way.....before the first UFC was on, if I was talking to someone on a forum and I described a closed guard to them, with me having my legs wrapped around their body while I was on my back and they were kneeling between my legs, sitting back on their heels and I told them I could do whatever I wanted to them, they might think me crazy. They would probably think they could just rip my groin out or mash my face to pulp. But we both know that ain't going to happen. If I went on to tell them I was going to choke them to sleep using the very clothes on their back, they would probably laugh.
It's kind of like that. Seems to be anyway.

In Pekiti-Tirsia we have a punch, a knife thrust, and a sword thrust using the same double force action of one hand re-enforcing the other.

I never thought of that either, the knife thrust. I'll give that a whirl, too.

I'm not speaking for all Kenpoists, just Ed Parker guys, but you just described the Base Of The Art. We used to call it B1a, and B1b, for high and low, but you can lump the two together and call it B1T, which means The base of the art, is cancel, and thrust. There are higher numbers in the mix, but they all refer to the footwork.

My friend's a GM under Ed. Never even thought of asking him. Well, duh. Thanks, man.

Since I posted this thread yesterday, I reached out to some folks. One of my friends from Ueichi gave me the e-mail to the gentleman in Hong Kong. We've been in touch and he's going to hook me up with some folks in the upcoming year.

In the meantime, I'll continue to play with this and all the ideas you guys helped me with. Thanks.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You know, Bill, that's pretty much it right there, only not with that foot forward. If I was doing it with the right hand, my right foot would be back. Kind of like the difference between a jab and a straight right (or left). But then again, as I seem to be falling in love with this punch - I haven't even thought about same side forward. Ten years ago this would have had me up all damn night, but I'm going to wait until tomorrow to play with it that way.

If I had seen that clip cold, I probably never would have had any interest in striking like that. I sometimes wonder what else I'm missing.

I don't think which foot is forward matters except in the kata itself; right foot forward lends itself to the next several moves.

Seiunchin makes use of several reinforced techniques, including twould renforced blocks. There is advanced bunkai where they are not reinforced blocks at all, but locks into throws, bone breaks, etc.

Getting back to the reinforced punch, it can of course also be delivered with the shotei fingers up or down, to conform to the body part being hit, spleen, liver, balance point; or with an ichi knuckle wherever it will do the most good.

I find myself always seeing and being shown more that I thought possible. I guess that won't ever end. So much to learn, so little absorbed so far...

 

[Buka]

I don't think which foot is forward matters except in the kata itself; right foot forward lends itself to the next several moves.

Seiunchin makes use of several reinforced techniques, including twould renforced blocks. There is advanced bunkai where they are not reinforced blocks at all, but locks into throws, bone breaks, etc.

Getting back to the reinforced punch, it can of course also be delivered with the shotei fingers up or down, to conform to the body part being hit, spleen, liver, balance point; or with an ichi knuckle wherever it will do the most good.

I find myself always seeing and being shown more that I thought possible. I guess that won't ever end. So much to learn, so little absorbed so far...

I feel so much more power when the opposite foot is back. Or at least I think I do, I haven't actually tried it with the same foot forward - except for, you know, a couple of minutes after I read your post. I'll keep you posted as I go forward.

Bill, what does "shotei" mean, please?

I'm not so much interested in any body part as a target, at least not yet, as I am in the power generated to move him away, back or down.

Yeah, so much to learn, so little time. But that's a good thing!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I feel so much more power when the opposite foot is back. Or at least I think I do, I haven't actually tried it with the same foot forward - except for, you know, a couple of minutes after I read your post. I'll keep you posted as I go forward.

Bill, what does "shotei" mean, please?

I'm not so much interested in any body part as a target, at least not yet, as I am in the power generated to move him away, back or down.

Yeah, so much to learn, so little time. But that's a good thing!

Sorry, palm heel strike. Designed to impart massive shock to soft tissue, generally speaking. If you open your right hand and turn the fingers to about 4 o'clock, the palm fits nicely into the spleen of the opponent. Hard reinforced strike there is an eye-opener.

Delivered as a fist to the breadbasket, it should cause them to collapse forward, feeding you their face.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry, palm heel strike. Designed to impart massive shock to soft tissue, generally speaking. If you open your right hand and turn the fingers to about 4 o'clock, the palm fits nicely into the spleen of the opponent. Hard reinforced strike there is an eye-opener.

Delivered as a fist to the breadbasket, it should cause them to collapse forward, feeding you their face.

I have recently read, you can twist out of that with a mean intent, as well, LOL

 

[drop bear]

I'll have to try that. So far, the way I've been playing with it is to have my hips feel the same way they would feel if you were breaking into a sprint from a standing position.

I would almost be trying to chun fist that. So a really tight elbow.

That is how I double palm push/ hit guys